Janet&David

So, no Canadians (all advised not to go on cruise ships); no Europeans except Brits and Irish; no Brits or Americans over 70 or with health conditions; and no Americans at all once the airlines decide they are not going to fly almost empty planes to the States just to bring a few Americans back from holiday (as all other passengers except Brits wouldn’t be allowed into the US). So if our booked cruise from Dubai to Greece goes ahead it will just be a handful of “younger” Brits and maybe a few Aussies if they can get flights into Dubai and out of Greece.

There should be no problems in keeping 2 metres apart to minimise the chance of infection. In the Main Dining Room we should be able to have a large table for each of us, with waiters serving us wearing hazmat suits. The cruise could be modified to make us Brits feel more at home. Perhaps fish & chips and Yorkshire pudding on the menu and knobbly knees contests and the like to keep us entertained during the long days at sea as we drift around the oceans with no ports letting us dock.

Sounds AzAmazing!

Imagine if Azamara ran a railway/railroad. It’s 9.30 in the morning and Azamara has just found that all the stations are closed and most of the track is missing or damaged. The station announcements would go something like this:

9.30  “Everything’s fine and all services are running as normal”

9.50  “Oh dear. I’m afraid that the 10.00 train is cancelled but everything else is OK”

10.30  “Everything’s fine and all services are running as normal”

10.50  “Oh dear. I’m afraid that the 11.00 train is cancelled but everything else is OK”

etc

12 hours ago, Lottie A said:

Denial....it’s not just a river in Egypt! 😂

Very funny, Lottie - I wish I'd thought of that! It's good to keep a sense of humour in the current situation.

2 hours ago, Vgroom said:

Sensible decision. Has any one heard anything about April cruises? 

Today I received an email from Azamara inviting me to book some “immersive” excursions on the April 26 cruise from Dubai. Prominent was an excursion to Luxor in Egypt, currently closed to tourists by the Egyptian government. I suspect that on many excursions we might be immersed in rather more than we bargained for!

Looks like management in Azamara are still in denial.

As per my previous posts (eg post 220 on page 9), if you have booked a 'package' (i.e. flights & cruise) from the UK (or the EU) then you have a right to a full cash refund if there are significant changes to the package.

Azamara's own website page on 'Key rights' confirms this:

Key rights under Directive (EU) 2015/2302 is available below:

• Travellers will receive all essential information about the package before concluding the package travel contract.
• There is always at least one trader who is liable for the proper performance of all the travel services included in the contract.
• Travellers are given an emergency number or details of a contact point where they can get in touch with the organiser or travel agent.
• Travellers may transfer the package to another person, on reasonable notice and possibly subject to additional costs.
• The price of the package may only be increased if specific costs rise (for instance fuel prices), and if expressly provided for in the contract, and in any event not later than 20 days before the start of the package. If the price increase exceeds 8% of the price of the package, the traveller may terminate the contract. If the organiser reserves the right to a price increase, the traveller has a right to a price reduction if there is a decrease in the relevant costs.
• Travellers may terminate the contract without paying any termination fee and get a full refund of any payments if any of the essential elements of the package, other than the price, are changed significantly. If before the start of the package the trader responsible for the package cancels the package, travellers are entitled to a refund and compensation where appropriate. 
• Travellers may terminate the contract without paying any termination fee before the start of the package in the event of exceptional circumstances, for instance if there are serious security problems at the destination which are likely to affect the package

The UK legislations includes these rights from the EU directive.

If you booked through a TA they should refund everything (flights, cruise, hotels, transfers etc). If you booked through the cruise line's UK based office they should refund everything you have paid them. Note - unfortunately the legislation probably doesn't apply if you just booked the cruise, as this is not a 'package'. Refunds must be cash (although if you used some FCC I don't think they have to give this back) - I suggest you don't accept FCC unless it is very generous (ie a lot more than the cash would be).

3 hours ago, sunlover33 said:

This is the information posed on the website from the TA 

 

What happens if our holiday is no longer operating or has been subject to a ‘significant change’ prior to travel?

We are working closely with our cruise line partners, who are continually assessing their upcoming itineraries to ensure that they are operating in accordance with the latest advice from the relevant authorities.

Should a holiday be cancelled, our customers will be provided with notification and a full refund.

Any customer affected by a ‘significant change’ will be contacted by our dedicated team to discuss their options, including the right to a refund.

We also have a separate team working to help affected customers find their next perfect cruise.

 

i asked the question so there would be no denial while on board that they were unaware of these changes. 

It's good to see that your TA is being so upfront about the situation and options. Ours did the right thing when we cancelled a cruise last month - but they needed a little nudge. They refunded in a reasonable time everything we had paid through them and the cruise company (eventually) refunded to us the additional payments we had made directly with them for excursions.

1 minute ago, sunlover33 said:

I have written to my TA to ask Azamara that specific question with regard to our stops in Sri Lanka which are a third of our itinerary and would constitute a significant change.  I will await their reply with interest. 

Under UK law your claim would be against your TA as they sold you the 'package' (assuming you booked flights through them - either the Azamara flight service or alternatives arranged by your TA). If you tell your TA that you only booked this cruise because you wanted to visit the exotic island of Sri Lanka and sample the tea they would have no basis for arguing that this is not a major change. They would then have to refund any money you paid them and then they would have to recover money from the cruise company and airlines. There is a very good chance that your TA's terms and conditions state that they are not responsible for this but unfortunately for them they can't override UK law, whatever they say.

28 minutes ago, Riocca said:

We are on Quests 17th March itinerary and Azamara seem reluctant to advise us that 2 ports appear to be closed to cruise ships, I think I know why. Azamara’s own UK terms and conditions, and I presume others, contains the following:

Significant change: Examples include a change from two days port of calls to two days sailing instead; 
 

A significant change gives us the right to cancel without penalty, of course the majority of passengers would be unaware of the potential port problems so If they wait until we are onboard to advise us it’s too late. If they are upfront they would have to offer the opportunity to cancel, Azamara aren’t covering themselves with glory in this situation.
 

The timing of the port changes is a critical point. In line with Azamara's terms and conditions, if there is a significant change to the 'package' that we've booked (in the UK) then we can consider the alternative proposed and either accept it or reject it for a full cash refund. This should be true even if the changes are announced the day before sailing (although it might be logistically difficult to refuse the change at that point). The problem comes if the cruise line maintains that it is going to stick to the itinerary (more or less) but then makes changes once onboard under the usual discretionary powers of the captain to ensure safety. I suspect we would then have to either accept it or potentially pursue the company through the courts when we get home (I can't see me bothering to do that).

50 minutes ago, lasvegaswinner1 said:

Call your senators and congress person.  This is an election year. Tell the cruise company you are filing a complaint with the federal government and they will be hearing from your senator.  I would even call the White House.  

As US personal injury lawyers are considering class actions for cruise passengers...

https://www.law.com/dailybusinessreview/2020/03/04/can-coronavirus-victims-sue-for-injuries/

... in the UK we are preparing to send some very stern letters of complaint to the cruise companies.

There was a rumour that a very senior US politician floated the idea of building a wall to keep infection out - but they couldn't work out a way to make the virus pay for it.

22 minutes ago, difranco said:

The aviation industry is the main transmission tool of the virus but the cruise industry is the incubator.

Very succinctly put, difranco - you should copyright this! I wonder what the media industry is - perhaps the magnifying glass. Not quite sure about the politicians!

There seems to be a surprising number of Brits on this message board! Just a reminder that as per an earlier post of mine, if you booked a cruise package (i.e. cruise and flights together - not necessarily the flights offered by the cruise company) through a TA or the cruise company's UK operation you have additional protection under UK law. If the cruise package changes "significantly" (more than a couple of ports or the start/end port) even if it is due to circumstances beyond the package provider's control you have the right to consider the alternative offered by the package organiser but then if you don't like it you can cancel for a full refund.

We established that this works when we cancelled our recent Oceania cruise when several ports changed.

I'm an adviser for Citizens Advice and here's a link to the info on the Citizens Advice website:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/holiday-cancellations-and-compensation/cancelling-a-package-holiday/#h-if-a-holiday-company-changes-the-holiday-after-you-book-it

Hopefully it won't come to this and if our Azamara Journey cruise in April actually sails from Dubai to Athens without major changes we'll be on it. That said, Oman, Jordan and Egypt look a bit doubtful. Apart from anything else, although we all like to think all ports/countries welcome cruisers with open arms, the reality is that we eat and drink on board and then pile into coaches to visit a few local attractions. While they wouldn't want the cruise lines to permanently abandon the ports of call, in times of crisis we probably don't contribute enough to local economies in the short term to be worth the risk.

2 hours ago, Riocca said:

Don’t know if this has already been shared but this was a link on Facebook to a message from Richard Fain.

This video really is dreadful. Clearly intended for travel agents and other cruise 'partners' it focuses entirely on how the Royal Caribbean companies and TAs will ride out the storm with virtually no mention of customers. He might just as well have said "don't worry, we'll only give the customers their money back as an absolute last resort".

In comparison to points made in other posts, this is a completely differenct perspective to Viking. We've sailed once with Viking and were very impressed and I reckon we'll be going back to them. Interesting that in the UK you can't book Viking through any of the online travel agents. It looks like Viking is making a clear decision to distance itself to some extent from the 'traditional' cruise market. The only downside to this is that there may not be as much downward pressure on their prices that there may be if booked alongside other cruise lines through TA. But it may be a price worth paying.

I don't hold with the argument that it is harder for a large cruise group to respond as it has shareholders - their dividends shouldn't be seen as more important than customer service/safety. Just as with large banks, oil companies, car manufacturers etc, big cruise companies are much better placed to survive 2 or 3 bad years than smaller companies.

 

9 minutes ago, sunlover33 said:

The information on Azamara website is very vague. 
 

2. There will be mandatory specialized health screenings performed on:

• Any guest who has traveled from, to or through select countries impacted by coronavirus (COVID-19), within 15 days of boarding.
• Guests who are uncertain about contact with individuals who have traveled from, to or through select countries impacted by coronavirus (COVID-19) within 15 days of boarding.

As most countries are impacted to a greater or lesser degree, are all guests now going to have to undertake a specialised health screening? There seems to be no clarification of which countries qualify as ‘Select countries’. 

The UK Gov.uk website today "provides specific advice for travellers returning to the UK from:

mainland China
Hong Kong
Macao
Cambodia
Iran
northern Italy
Japan
Laos
Malaysia
Myanmar
Singapore
South Korea
Taiwan
Thailand
Vietnam"

I'd guess that the cruise companies would use a similar list. 

Also today the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA) released an updated statement which includes the following:

"With strict measures in place, as guided by national and international health authorities, CLIA and its member lines do not believe restrictions on the movement of ships are justified."

So it looks like the cruise companies are going to try to tough it out.

Our Azamara cruise leaving Dubai on 26 April will have left Singapore 15 days earlier. Our first stop is 2 days in Oman that today announced it would not allow entry of passengers by plane or ship from "affected countries", which presumably includes Singapore. They may reckon we're OK as we'll have left moe than 14 days earlier although of course some passengers and all crew will have been on the previous leg. At the very least our AzAmazing evening at the Oman Convention and Exhibition Centre is in doubt!

2 hours ago, Liquid Amber said:

We consider ourselves very level headed and not prone to panicking. We are also fortunate to be in good health.

 

We are booked to join Azamara in mid June sailing from Barcelona to Venice over a b2b. We are due to make our final payment in 3 weeks time. We have only paid a small deposit. Our main concern is that flights might be cancelled. We have booked our own flights and EasyJet have already cancelled many  flights to Italy. Today’s Italy could be tomorrow’s  Spain, or more importantly in the middle of June. But none of us have a cristal ball. If we cannot get to the ship on time we have lost our holiday. This is irrespective of what Azamara might do. Well, at least we have a few weeks to see how the situation is developing.

The 'Travel Advisory' section of the Azamara website states:

"Regardless of nationality, we will deny boarding to:

- Any guest who has traveled from, to or through mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, Iran, South Korea, and the Italian regions of Emilia-Romagna, Lombardy, Veneto and Emilia-Romagna within 15 days of boarding.
- Any guest who has come in contact with anyone with 15-day prior travel to mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, Iran, South Korea, and the Italian regions of Emilia-Romagna, Lombardy, and Veneto. The CDC characterizes contact with an individual as coming within six feet (2M) of a person.
- Guests who report feeling unwell or demonstrate any flu-like symptoms."

Presumably someone at Azamara has worked out that Venice is in the centre of the Veneto region (the clue's in the name) so it seems unlikely that any cruises will start, end or call into Venice until the 'crisis' is over. So your main challenge in terms of flights is probably working out which city you will be flying back from. 

That said, by mid-June things may to starting to settle down, if not back to normal then at least to a point where the world starts functioning again. Scotland's Chief Medical Officer made a very sensible and realistic statement today: "If this does spread throughout Scotland, it will become business as usual. It will become as we have with people with the flu that yes, some people are very ill, some people are less ill, we accept that and people get on with their normal business.” In many ways it will be more straightforward to manage the disease after it has taken hold than it is to try (almost certainly unsuccessfully) to prevent it spreading. While there may be fewer flights, there will probably be less demand, so hopefully you'll get fixed up.

If all else fails, you can get from London to Barcelona by train in about 10 hours or so with one change from under £100 per person, one way (although the quickest journeys tend to be more expensive).

Good luck

48 minutes ago, sunlover33 said:

We are on the Singapore to Dubai leg of the cruise. An interesting discussion re significant change. 
http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/359686/coronavirus-what-are-the-legal-implications-for-package-tour-organisers

 

Yes, interesting. To get really nerdy, here is an extract from the relevant section of the Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018:

“Alteration of other package travel contract terms

11.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) The organiser must not unilaterally change the terms of a package travel contract before the start of the package, other than the price in accordance with regulation 10, unless—

(a) the contract allows the organiser to make such changes;

(b) the change is insignificant; and

(c) the organiser informs the traveller of the change in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner on a durable medium.

(3) Paragraphs (4) to (11) apply where, before the start of the package, the organiser—

(a) is constrained by circumstances beyond the control of the organiser to alter significantly any of the main characteristics of the travel services specified in paragraphs 1 to 10 of Schedule 1;

(b) cannot fulfil the special requirements specified in paragraph 1 of Schedule 5; or

(c) proposes to increase the price of the package by more than 8% in accordance with regulation 10(4) .

(4) The organiser must, without undue delay, inform the traveller in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner on a durable medium, of—

(a) the proposed changes referred to in paragraph (3) and, where appropriate, in accordance with paragraph (7) , their impact on the price of the package;

(b) a reasonable period within which the traveller must inform the organiser of the decision pursuant to paragraph (5) ;

(c) the consequences of the traveller’s failure to respond within the period referred to in sub-paragraph (b) ; and

(d) any substitute package, of an equivalent or higher quality, if possible, offered to the traveller and its price.

(5) The traveller may, within a reasonable period specified by the organiser—

(a) accept the proposed changes; or

(b) terminate the contract without paying a termination fee.

(6) Where the traveller terminates the contract pursuant to paragraph (5) (b) , the traveller may accept a substitute package, where this is offered by the organiser.

(7) Where—

(a) the changes to the package travel contract referred to in paragraph (3) , or

(b) the substitute package referred to in paragraph (6) ,

result in a package of lower quality or cost, the traveller is entitled to an appropriate price reduction.

(8) Where—

(a) the traveller terminates the contract pursuant to paragraph (5) (b) , and

(b) the traveller does not accept a substitute package,

the organiser must refund all payments made by or on behalf of the traveller without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the contract is terminated.

(9) Where paragraph (8) applies, regulation 16(2) to (10) applies.

(10) Where the traveller does not confirm, within the period specified in paragraph (5) , whether the traveller wishes to—

(a) accept the proposed change, or

(b) terminate the contract,

in accordance with that paragraph, the organiser must notify the traveller, a second time, of the matters in sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (4) .

(11) If, having been notified under paragraph (10) , the traveller fails to respond, the organiser may terminate the contract and refund all payments made by or on behalf of the traveller without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the contract is terminated.”

A couple of key points to note:

11. (2) (b) – the onus is on the package organiser to demonstrate/prove that the change is “insignificant”, not on the traveller to prove that it is significant.

11. (3) (a) – the obligations on the package organiser apply even if the organiser is constrained by circumstances beyond the control of the organiser – so they can’t use a global pandemic to try to get out of their obligations

As per JDClever’s post, even if the ship goes to the planned ports, if there are likely to be no or few opportunities to get off the ship and see anything then that probably constitutes a significant change.

As I said in my earlier post, when almost half the ports on our previous cruise were changed it was unarguable that the changes were significant. Let’s hope we don’t have to put this to the test for the next cruise.

Of course it’s everybody’s individual choice, but I think it’s hard to see how cancelling late as some people have suggested and losing 75% (or 100%) of the cost would ever be the right thing to do. We were booked on an Oceania cruise from Japan to Singapore (via China, Vietnam, Taiwan) due to sail on April 13. Oceania first changed the itinerary significantly (including introducing a stop in South Korea, the country with by far the most COVID-19 cases outside of China) but dug their heels in about cancellation. Eventually they abandoned this, cancelled all cruises in the area until June (although this is bound to be extended) and gave full refunds plus 25% FCC.

We then booked on Azamara from Dubai to Greece, sailing on April 26 in the hope of one last chance of enjoying a cruise before the global situation gets even worse. If this still sails with the planned itinerary we’ll be on it, even though the previous cruise will have been from Singapore. However, I think there is a strong likelihood that this cruise will be cancelled too. One of the experts from the World Health Organisation commented in relation to the Diamond Princess that this showed that if you wanted to create a perfect environment for spreading a new virus it would be a cruise ship. I think that all the cruise companies will soon have to cancel all cruises that have any measurable risk. Obviously all of the Far East, including Singapore will be high risk. But now Italy has the third highest number of cases after China and South Korea. Italy has borders with no controls (you don’t even need to slow down on the highway as you cross the border – this is how the European Union works) with France, Switzerland, Austria and Slovenia which in turn have seamless borders with rest of Europe. Travellers from Italy have now resulted in cases in France and Croatia (so that’s cruises to the Med under threat), the Canaries (another popular cruise destination), Netherlands, Denmark, Germany and the UK (so that’s northern Europe cruises affected too), Israel and Nigeria.

I’d guess that cruises in the Caribbean will be OK for the next 3 months or so, but when the virus has become established there (and in the USA) they’ll be affected too. Hopefully there’ll be a vaccine by the end of the 2020 and the virus will be history by mid 2021 (with a vaccine) or sometime in 2022 without a vaccine. The cruise industry will just have to suck it up. Shareholders will have a rough ride for a couple of years but the people to be sorry for are the staff, particularly the low paid serving crew. One or two of the less profitable/financially secure cruise lines will probably go under and their ships will be bought up by the large cruise line groups.

Others in this discussion have commented on the risks of litigation if Azamara push ahead with risky cruises. I think this is a very good point. Any cruise line that ended up with another Diamond Princess on its hands (Italy has only just overtaken the ship in terms of numbers of cases) having gone into it with their eyes open (Princess could at least plead ignorance) is going to end up in court. Even worse, in a way, was the Holland America Westerdam. Having unadvisedly taken on board 800 passengers in China after news of the virus first emerged, it was obliged to roam aimlessly for 2 weeks with no port willing to accept it, even though there wasn’t a single case of the disease on board. If an Azamara ship takes on anyone from a high risk country (which will be the next one after Italy?) then they could be in the same boat, literally.

Our cruise starts in Dubai – currently 19 cases to date (about the same as the UK) but as an international hub it could increase rapidly and/or tighten the rules about who can enter the country by air or sea. Similarly our final destination, Athens, with currently only 4 cases could tighten up controls to avoid going the same way as Italy. So there you go. I think our cruise will be cancelled but if it goes ahead with a more or less unchanged itinerary, we will be on it.

I see that there is at least one other person from the UK in this discussion. It’s worth noting that under UK law we have additional protection in this situation. In the UK if you book a ‘package’ holiday, including a cruise, and there is a ‘significant’ change to the holiday then the travel agent (or cruise company if you booked directly) must return the full cost of the holiday to you. For it to be a ‘package’ the booking must include flights and cruise – if it’s just the cruise the law doesn’t apply. There is no definition of ‘significant’ in the legislation. Changing one port wouldn’t qualify but changing a number of ports and/or the start or end ports probably would. With our proposed cruise of the Far East, Oceania had removed calls to 2 ports in China, plus Taiwan and Hong Kong and added ports in the remaining countries plus a previously unscheduled stop in South Korea (that would have worked out well!). These were clearly significant changes and we confirmed that we had a right to cancel with our TA. As it happened, the day we phoned our TA to cancel was they day that Oceania blinked first and cancelled the cruise (which also gave us the FCC, although as this has to be used by the end of 2020 it’s probably not much use). If the Azamara cruise changes significantly in advance (for example if it ends up being 2 weeks at sea with no ports of call!) I wouldn’t hesitate to cancel again. If you’re in Australia or Canada it may be worth checking if you have similar legislation. I presume it’s not quite the same case in the USA or someone would have mentioned it (and for the Oceania cruise US travellers didn’t seem able to cancel even after the itinerary changes) although Azamara seems to have acknowledged that changes in itinerary may mean you can cancel in some circumstances.

Anyway, let’s hope it works out OK for all of us. If you’re on the Dubai-Athens cruise and it goes ahead more-or-less in line with the planned itinerary, we may see you aboard.

A quick note to Uk-based travellers. If there are 'significant' changes to the holiday you've booked you have additional rights under UK law if you booked it as a 'package'. 'Significant' isn't defined but in the case of a cruise would probably include changes to more than a couple of ports or a change to your destination/disembarkation port. If you booked the cruise as a package (i.e. the cruise itself, flights not booked with the cruise company, transfers, pre-/post-cruise hotels) through a travel agent then the TA is obliged by law to refund all costs and then recover them from the cruise company, airline etc. We tested this with the cancellation of our recent cruise booked for the Far East when China, Hong Kong and Taiwan were all removed from the itinerary (albeit for obvious reasons beyond the control of the cruise line). This should also apply if you booked directly through the cruise line as long it was through their UK offices and priced in GBP (and includes flights as well as the cruise, as otherwise it's not a 'package') - they are effectively operating as their own TA.

Hopefully it won't come to this but its worth knowing your rights/options. We've re-booked on an Azamara cruise late April/early May from Dubai to Athens and will be hoping to stay one step ahead of the virus but who knows! We wouldn't hesitate to exercise our rights and cancel again if the situation warranted it.

Here's a link to the Citizens Advice information on this:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/holiday-cancellations-and-compensation/cancelling-a-package-holiday/?fbclid=IwAR2jQIHWx2dpYxDH96qaLtN6M48M6l6KyOA5RagfAmmJu27PVfJPzCJWK2k#h-if-you-booked-your-holiday-on-or-after-1-july-2018

We've been meaning to try Azamara for a while and have just booked a Journey cruise late April/early May to replace an Oceania cruise to the Far East cancelled by the cruise line due to the coronavirus. Our previous cruises have been on Oceania, Viking and Crystal so that's who we'll be judging Azamara against.

I think the entry of Viking into the ocean cruising market has shaken up the prestige but not super-luxury segment (i.e. below Seabourn, Regent etc). The excursions with Viking are particularly good (an included excursion in each port and high quality, reasonable cost optional additional excursions) and the whole offering feels more 'modern' - rather than nostalgic for the cruising golden era of the 1930s. Oceania has the best food of the cruise lines we've tried - including excellent speciality restaurants at no extra cost. Crystal was a bit of a disappointment - food and service good but not exceptional and not worth the price premium - we'd only sail with them again if we got a great deal.

What we're looking for on Azamara is a 'small ship' experience. We accept that shows and some other activities will be smaller scale but hope that this is outweighed by the more intimate atmosphere. And we've been forewarned about the shower curtains so that won't come as a shock!

We'll see - looking forward to it.