DGHOC

Forever grateful J and D, we are so very lucky.

We raise our glasses to you all. 🥂

All good wishes.

Lovely to hear from you, hope you and your sis are both well. We were looking at some of our Searching for the NL excursion photos recently and were remembering you both. Sending all good wishes your way!

We were appalled at the damage being done around us thus we tried to stop it. One glass case fell and there was a couple sitting right in front of another. Whether shocked or terribly optimistic they just continued to sit there, we barked at them to move because if the next case had come down on them I think their injuries would have been immense. We couldn't use either glass staircase to get down as each had been smashed by falling furniture. We had to exit by the room corridor on the 8th floor. 

The devastation was truly shocking to see the following day, we took a wrong turn going to have dinner and walked through the restaurant which looked like an explosion had occurred.

9 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The recommended changes are policed for the various players by various third party auditors now that deficiencies in their practices have been noted by NSIA.  For Fincantieri, their ISO certification depends on the ISO auditor agreeing that the changes made are sufficient to prevent a recurrence, and become an new industry standard.  For Lloyds, the IACS audits their rules, and will see that the changes are made, and consistent with the findings of NSIA.  For Wilhelmsen and Viking, Lloyds will audit their SMS programs to see that the changes are made.  All of these third party audits are renewed at least annually, to ensure continued compliance, and to find any further discrepancies from industry best practices.  Each player accepts responsibility not for causing the incident, but for having a deficient system or process (their SMS or ISO programs) and responsibility for changing the process.  If each player is found to have followed their SMS/ISO/IACS codes, policies, and procedures, and those followed industry best practices, at that time (so, before the incident), then negligence is hard/impossible to prove, and financial responsibility difficult to apportion.

 

Just so you know, loss of things like an ISM certificate (International Safety Management Code, set by the IMO, which requires the companies to set up their individual SMS (Safety Management Systems), results in the ship/company losing its ability to operate ships of the flag nation (so almost a kiss of death for ships or shipowners, as Class certificates are required to be checked by port states before allowing a ship to enter their waters), and the same applies for ISO certificates, as flag states can approve or disapprove of Class societies to survey and certify ships flying their flag.  Loss of ISO certification can result in customers taking their shipbuilding business elsewhere, to a competitor that does meet standards.  Andy probably has more personal experience with certification at the shoreside level.

Thanks so much for clarifying in such detail, we're enormously grateful.

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Andy, I can't say for sure what Lloyd's would do, but I know that DNV and ABS, the two Class societies I'm familiar with, would have issued a "condition of class" to have the engine repaired by a given date (set in conversation with Wilhelmsen and MAN regarding parts and technician availability), and with the notation that if another engine failed the ship could not sail, or if another engine came due for preventative maintenance that could not be accomplished during port calls, that the ship could not sail.

 

I guess I gave the wrong impression.  The report does not seek to assess blame, but there is no reason that Viking could not file civil action against Lloyds, Wilhelmsen, or Fincantieri for breach of contract.  I'm not a lawyer, just a simple boat mechanic, but it would depend on how strong a case Viking felt they had as to whether they pursue it (they do share some responsibility as well), in my opinion.  Further mitigating the liability of the various players other than Viking, are the facts that it appears that even the IMO bears some responsibility for not promulgating clear procedures for implementing requirements they set in SOLAS.  This, to me, shows that "industry standard" was similar to what Lloyds and Fincantieri did with the design of the sump tanks (see the El Faro, mentioned in the report, a much older ship that had similar design problems and was lost due to low oil levels), and so there are likely many ships operating out there today that don't actually meet SOLAS requirements, since no one thought their design philosophy was wrong.  The purpose of the recommended actions from the NSIA is to make both Lloyds and the IACS (the governing body for Class societies) make changes in how they approve a design pursuant to SOLAS, and apply this to all existing vessels, so that there may be new operating limitations, or maintenance requirements, to mitigate a potential problem, if an existing ship's sump tanks are found to be non-compliant.  As NSIA noted, a flag state can grant an exemption to certain items regarding SOLAS, if a sufficient reason is given, and mediation measures listed in the vessel's certificate of class (seaworthiness document).

Chengkp75, you are kind to try to further clarify here. I suppose what was worrying me was that if these recommended changes were not policed in some way, if nobody had to accept responsibility when errors or weaknesses were recognised, why should they change? 

Andy, thanks so much from us too. Much of the report was unintelligible to me yet your detailed explanation and expertise much better clarifies things.

I totally agree with J and D. The sound and comprehensive advice and rationale you and chengkp75 so generously offered immediately after the event was enormously reassuring, at a time when we were all trying to make sense of what had happened to us. I think it was enormously important for us to be able to understand why and how this had happened. I have to mention too, your experience and unemotional delivery of fact contrasted dramatically with the inevitable 'disaster chasers' who were pounding our conversations with utter nonsense. Your responses offered a safe pair of hands.

In many ways we were awfully lucky. We were first time cruisers, (we'd never been remotely interested before and my husband had to be persuaded to agree to go) and we really had no idea how serious the situation was. I think I said to you way back that we were on the top deck of the E L thoroughly enjoying the roller coaster ride whilst many around were becoming increasingly anxious and green. We just thought that that was the norm and all really did seem well until suddenly it was not. It was only when the engines suddenly failed and the ship couldn't therefore manage to point into the waves, turning sideways, that all became tricky. It happened very quickly and the difference was profound. It caught many off guard, so much so that they continued sitting on moving sofas; I remember we were keenly trying to stop more of the huge ship display cabinets from falling over by wedging sofas against them. We were so naive! We bumped into a head waiter on our last cruise who had been in The Restaurant on the Sky. He was telling us about some diners who were refusing to leave their lunch table until they had been served their puds, even as he was trying to hold the fridges up as all was smashing everywhere. It was very sudden.

Chengkp75 has stated that this isn't a blame game and I do accept that but I don't understand why, if many others have contributed to this event through failings, that V is seen as solely responsible and has taken on the sole financial burden of correcting others contributing errors. Plus of course the expense of compensating us all so very generously. Surely this report will now lead to corporate litigation? Maybe I'm still not understanding.

Yes I remember the discussion. Did you receive the full fare credit to pay for another cruise? I remember a conversation a group of us had whilst onboard, we were wondering whether you'd all been made away. My daughter (in France) told me it was splashed all over the news worldwide.

1 minute ago, SJD117 said:

Attorney here. It’s very possible that lawyers won’t be working on this for “years to come.” They need plaintiffs, after all, and many real or potential cases may already have settled out. And other passengers may just wish to put the Sky debacle behind them, five years after it occurred. (There’s also the issue of potential statutes of limitation, but that’s beyond the scope of this comment.)

 

As to the ascertainment of legal responsibility, courts do this all the time in multi-party litigation. It’s not a problem.

Oh no, I didn't mean from the passengers, I would imagine that most would have been more than satisfied by Viking's generosity. I'm talking about the costs expended by Viking as a result of this incident and the costs necessary to correct what needs correcting/changing with the ships and procedures etc. The Chief has explained that it's not a blame game but I would expect that somewhere, someone is going to have to put their hands up and accept some sort of proportional responsibility. I can't however, profess to understanding anything at all about all of this!!

I remember you introducing yourself to us as a lawyer way back then.

What a tangled mess chengkp75, how will they possibly ascertain responsibility? The lawyers will  surely be working on this for years to come.

1 hour ago, OnTheJourney said:

One thing that has always wondered me is - how much of a factor, relative to the sailing decisions made both before and after leaving Tromso, was needing to get to Tilbury by our scheduled disembarkation date? Ours was, if I'm correct, the final Northern Lights journey for the season, or was there a return trip to Bergen? Or another cruise for that matter out of Tilbury? Any sort of itinerary delay can quickly become a significant issue (as DW and I experienced on the Viking Mississippi cruise).

There was a cruise following ours OTJ, (not a NL one) it was obviously cancelled and as I remember the guests received a full refund and were compensated with the same amount (free cruise).

There was a situation with another V cruise delayed by a storm off of Norway which resulted in a delayed arrival in the UK. There were a number of disgruntled passengers both on the delayed ship and awaiting in the UK who brought their grievances to CC. Can't remember the detail but I think that they felt they hadn't been adequately compensated. Viking were obviously keen to avoid a repeat of the Sky incident, rightly so!

Well said J and D, couldn't agree more! Many thanks to both of them.

Hey J and D, responded on the Viking Sky Survivors thread x

Hi J and D, hope all good with you both. Thanks so much for posting this, we were beginning to think it would never appear.

Mmmm, it doesn't make for happy reading and I'm so glad Andy is here to offer his knowledge and experience, he was a huge help after the event. Even putting aside the frankly chilling 23 hours sitting in a chair in the theatre with the drama unleashed around us, it was shocking to see the evidence afterwards of how close we came to unimaginable disaster. 

When we were all together again on our gifted cruise in the Med, the issues of reason and responsibility were raised and much discussed by T H and others. One of the other guests who was on a pre-trip in Umbria with us, and who was still raging about the event, directly challenged TH about whether the Captain should have sailed in that storm, in that stretch of sea, knowing that one engine was out, he responded that he shouldn't have. This was witnessed by all around. We knew about the oil level issues then but not so much else that is detailed here. As Andy said, Swiss Cheese Model indeed!

I wonder when this report was received by TH and others responsible for the issues that need to be addressed. I wonder too whether action is underway to address these issues and concerns throughout the cruise industry.. 

Yep, no doubt this will be an enormous and hard fought legal battle to ascertain responsibility and blame; probably a massive money earner. Viking were extraordinarily generous and supportive of us passengers after the event, I suspect more generous with some with very serious injuries who were threatening to sue and who suddenly went quiet. Of course there was also the case of the couple from New Jersey who settled their multi million case against Viking. They were part of a large family group on the ship but weren't on the reunion cruise with the rest of the family.

We were all incredibly lucky to survive this event. On subsequent trips we met others who were still deeply affected by the experience; one chap we were talking to was openly weeping whilst discussing it. 

I'm so very sorry to read your post Haworth, what a shock for you.

Sending all good wishes to you.

Thanks On The Journey. I do hope you will both find that all will be well in the New Year.

Sending my best wishes to our little family too. Let's hope for peace, health and happiness for us all x

Brilliant review, thanks so much! I've very much enjoyed reading about your trip, you've offered us a very balanced view throughout.

Following our recent trip in June, I'm in agreement with so much of what you've said. We don't tend to eat in the Restaurant so can't compare comment on that but we found the service in the Chef's Table and Manfredi's to be very good. The World Cafe was excellent too. We had below par, slightly stodgy waffles in Mamsen's one morning and a pretty grim fishcake one lunchtime, though that was a day when most had left the ship for excursions; I suspect they had a skeleton staff manning the fort.

I'n glad you enjoyed the cruise and that you've booked more; always a sign of a satisfied customer. We too have found the London office excellent. 

Thanks once again.

1 hour ago, uktog said:

Today absolutely everything was labelled as containing nuts in the World Cafe including the fruit tarts which used to be available to DH. The solution we have is once DH enters the cafe the chef is advised to prep a dessert. Today that involved a 30 minute delay and then some cookies appeared. They were nice but the process is still work in progress. Can’t believe every single dessert on the buffet has nuts or has to have nuts

Oh well 

This is the age old problem uktog, what's needed is a label that says no nut ingredients or made in a kitchen where nuts are used. May contain nuts is used in blanket form across the UK for food manufacturers and restaurants to safe guard themselves.

All depends on the allergy and all allergic folk are different. My daughter is allergic to pine nuts, cashews and pistachios but will only react if they are an ingredient not if they are prepped for other dishes in a kitchen. She carries an Epipen so her reaction is serious enough. In France, where she lives, every boulangerie or patisserie will tell her that everything contains nuts, much like Viking are suggesting, obviously that's not the case.

It's such a tricky one.

Thanks for posting JD, always lovely to hear from you both. I wonder whether Covid slowed this report down?

Hope everyone enjoys their upcoming trips. All good wishes to all!

11 hours ago, snookie1 said:

Oh my goodness, dbtrb22!  We very much want to do the Churchill War Rooms, but the 500 pounds for the private tour you took is too pricy for us.  I looked at the official website, and saw that they offer a guided tour before the Rooms open to the public for 47.25 pounds.  That is more in line with our budget.  I am sure your experience was invaluable, though, and thank you for suggesting it.

I am beginning to feel more comfortable with the idea of navigating on the Tube, thanks to everyone's helpful comments!

The tubes are really easy and user friendly snookie, nothing to worry about at all. If confused, just ask another traveller, everyone will be willing to direct you.

London's a great and easy city to traverse. The sort of areas you'll be visiting are not dangerous at all but as with any popular touristy location, make sure the fastenings on your bags are closed and be aware. Pickpockets worldwide go for easy pickings.

The area around the War rooms is wonderful, St James's particularly so. I'd do a DIY and then you have time to wander as you like. I hope you have a fabulous trip

I love that photo John, I saved it to my screen last time you posted it!

Another thing to remember is that different people see the lights differently. I could see them building when others with me couldn't. That was most odd and there were a number of accusations of witch craft!! Our private guide said it was definitely a thing.

We were in the first year of the Viking NL trips along with Johneb2 above. We were woken by the bridge channel in the middle of the night and I jumped out of bed and dashed to the window. The sky was ablaze but it was a massive shock when I opened the door. Remember to keep your boots and a coat by the window but move fast as they can be gone in the blink of an eye.

We were also eating in Manfredi's one night when the call went up. The staff dimmed the lights and wrapped us tightly behind the curtains to get the best view.

We took a private tour to search for the lights. Our guide drove us to an isolated quarry where we set up camp, however, as we stood waiting the clouds came in. He directed us back to the bus and we chased the skies. We ended up by a frozen lake between Sweden and Finland. We saw them but it wasn't one of the dramatic displays so often seen on screens. Still wonderful though!

On this tour we were instructed to use the loo at the tour companies headquarters, then made to put on  mahoosive padded suits and boots. Once out in the wilderness there was no facility to pee. The snow outside of the clearings was thigh deep and potentially dangerous so the guide barked at anyone trying to wander off. I understand that the Viking chasing tours on our trip drove to a place with a public lavatory, though I don't think they were successful at seeing the lights.

It was a fabulous trip, go and enjoy!

Clay, I'm loving this trip report. What a delight to wake to every day!! Many thanks.

16 hours ago, mbiggers said:

We haven’t been on Viking Ocean since 2019 but are scheduled on the Neptune in 10 days. I remember they had decent scones for tea, but the World Cafe had limited gluten free products- no cookies, bagels, or cakes. Any comments on current selections would be appreciated. Should I bring a bag of bagels?

Thanks,

Michele

We were just on Jupiter. I am sure I saw a separated/lidded area in the WC that was filled with a gluten free selection. I only glanced at it but I'm sure there were muffins etc. I'd definitely contact tell-us, they may be able to provide definite info.

I was thinking exactly the same. Previously I ordered a half portion of their 'little bit of pasta' if as a primi, especially as the mains were so large. I've found that you can adjust the sizes of whatever you order and even the order sequence. We've had mains for starters and vice versa, they will do what you ask very happily, they're always eager to please.

We were on the Jupiter just a few weeks ago and the portion sizes were as before and apart from a so so Carbonara every other dish was delicious. The Bistecca was thick and almost the size of the plate and perfectly cooked. There seem to be so many experience variations here.

Thank you Linda and Dave for your great trip report, I'm following keenly.

We've seen Norway in the winter and did the train from Narvik when all was covered in deep snow. Dave's photos were similar to mine but sunny and green, I'd definitely like to visit Norway during the summer months and shall investigate this itinerary.

Continue enjoying your fab trip!

Thankfully that was the only robe we saw in the World cafe!