jbuch02

Long time since my last post on Cruise Critic. I used to live here starting with our first cruise in 2001, 17 years and 40+ cruises ago. I've lost touch with the community and have some observations and a question.

Starting sometime around 2010 when there was cruise industry wide implementation of the many software programs that optimize cabin pricing (like the Airlines optimize seat pricing), it's gotten hard to game the system to optimize your cruise cabin cost. I've probably used all the "tricks" cruisers have used. For one, I know that you can book on board and get perks for doing that but, lately, I don't think the pricing is favorable at all, at least not with Celebrity which is our preferred line. 4y ago, in anticipation of retirement, we bought a duplex in Fort Lauderdale, have one half rented and we use the other half probably more than 6 months of the year, on and off. The whole plan was, when we are in Fort Lauderdale, to be able to decide to go on a cruise the last minute and go for it.

I retired more than a year ago but have found this approach doesn't work very well as, typically, the cruise you might be looking at met it's capacity for profit months ago and the company isn't going to give away the few remaining cabins they might have.

Currently, for cruise bookings, I use an on-line agent who I just happen to like and I get airline miles as a perk with my favorite airline. However, I do the shopping using one of the many on-line consolidators that offer web sites where you can see what's available and what the current pricing is for the cabin you want. To a certain degree, you can use a site where you can see what cabins are available and how many and this might affect pricing and, in the end usually does (supply/demand pricing). After shopping and doing the best I can on price this way, I call my favorite agent and tell her what cruise I'm looking at. She can usually match the price/value of perks or will tell me the deal I found is better than she can do.

I'm also signed up for a news letter that seems to tell me when a line is offering some pretty good cruise pricing - the better pricing is further out, some, not all, on cruise lines I probably wouldn't book or itineraries I'm not interested in. It's gotten to the point that buying a cruise cabin is just like buying an airline seat, that is, as far as 6 months out the airline starts to manage it's seat pricing. It will offer deep discounts on airline flights that evaporate as soon as those seats are sold - it can take 2-3d or it can take 3 months for the seats to get sold. As well, there will be an entirely unpredictable appearance of a deep discount closer to the actual date of the flight that might appear for a couple of hours then be gone. It's hit or miss. By two weeks out, seats become very expensive as the airline has optimized it's profit on a particular flight. There are no last minute deals and I believe the cruise lines are operating in the same manner.

I used an independent TA when we first started cruising. She was really good but she retired. I never went back or tried another independent TA, maybe I should. I found the comment up-thread that TAs buy a block of cabins at a discount (acting as a consolidator) and can therefore sell these to you at a lower price than the cruise line is selling them direct to you. Or, the TA might forego their commission and sell the cabin for exactly what they paid for it at discount. Is this sort of thing as good as it sounds in the current market?

What's the 2018 model for shopping for and then purchasing a cruise when you are pretty much free to cruise whenever you want, subject to budgeting constraints, of course?

It's way better so don't worry about that. (unless of course you like the drunken party atmosphere on Carnival)

Small sample size (3 recent Carnival cruises out of 38 total) but there's been a pretty significant change within Carnival that belies that characterization. While we did find our first Carnival cruise on Inspiration in 2008 disappointing and, at times, because of the characterization of Carnival made in your post, we've not experienced it of late.

The beverage package offered by Celebrity as a perk with its unlimited imbibing creates the environment for "drunken parties" aboard Celebrity ships more readily than anything Carnival is doing and, I've seen it. Carnival Cruise Lines (part of the Carnival Corp. which includes: AIDA Cruises, Carnival Cruise Line, Costa Cruises, Cunard Line, Fathom, Holland America Line, P&O Cruises, P&O Cruises Australia) puts emphasis on family, kids and fun. You don't see a lot of drunks on board because of that it seems. There's also plenty of spaces designed for adults only and even there, in the last three recent cruises, I never saw anyone drunk and acting foolishly.

I post this because I think it is inaccurate characterization of Carnival Cruise line ships in the current era. In the past, perhaps, but, I think that characterization is unfair for the most part.

We are regular cruisers and have been Celebrity loyalists since 2003. We've seen the transition from the early Century Class ships, to Millennium and now Solstice. We've cruised some 38 times. Our first on Mercury in 2001, 30 times since then. We've seen the management changes and the changing character of the product over the last 15 years. We can offer perspective and that's what I'll try to do in this post.

Our last cruise? ......... Carnival Sunshine. We typically book inside or OV cabins. On this cruise of 5d, we booked the Captain's Suite to accommodate a meeting place for 4 other family members who cruised with us (2, besides us, in the suite, 2 in an inside cabin elsewhere) over the Holidays. This is the equivalent of the Penthouse Suites on a Celebrity ship, a bit smaller perhaps but at $400/d/p (with four comfortably occupying these quarters), it is quite a bit less expensive (we've never booked a Celebrity Suite and don't plan to in the future).

The Carnival suite experience was nice. Different. There was no butler but we received some type of unexpected perk each day in our cabin ....... specialty dinner for 4, Champagne, wine, chocolates, a fruit basket. Nice touches. We felt well served and somewhat special. The nicest part of this suite is that it is just above the bridge and bridge wings. The huge balcony is forward facing, partially glass enclosed and you can see both forward over the bow and all the way aft. We all spent a lot of time here taking advantage of the exclusivity this cabin offered.

Our next two cruises are with Carnival: Vista in a week and Glory in August. Our next two cruises are with Celebrity - Infinity in December of this year and Solstice in March of 2018.

The salient point is that all the cruise lines we've sailed (Celebrity, NCL, RCL, Oceana, Costa, MSC, Carnival) have different characteristics and even the ships in the same fleet will have a different feel to them. We enjoy that but we have always used Celebrity as the standard and bar to reach.

......... until maybe 2-3y ago which I also associate with the accession of Lisa Lutoff-Perlo to CEO. I don't blame her for much of anything that has changed with Celebrity and it has changed, really changed. Her job is to generate revenue, keep Celebrity profitable and keep the share-holders happy. She's done a good job at that if you examine public records.

She has also been influenced, in my view, by the competition and accordingly has set out to capture a certain segment of the market that has no problem paying for "Modern Luxury" and the "Suite Life." The value cruiser, while still accommodated on Celebrity cruises, may find equal or better value elsewhere. Regardless, we still like the feel and character of Celebrity ships. We know lots of the staff after 30 cruises with the company and it's always fun to renew acquaintances.

We sailed Carnival on one of the older ships, Inspiration and still in service, in 2008 and, compared to Celebrity at the time, not even close in terms of food quality, accommodations, service, entertainment and the like. Since then? Well, we enjoy Carnival having first sailed with them in the modern era of their ship upgrades in 2012. We enjoy the price first. Compared to Celebrity for equivalent accommodations (inside or OV) it ranges anywhere from 50 to 150 dollars per day, per person less. The food is as good. There are more restaurant venues and lower up charges when there is one. Perhaps per person staffing is about the same as Celebrity and occasionally you will see the same kinds of apparent short staffing in various venues that you'll see on Celebrity.

The character of the staff however is different. Like Celebrity's corporate memes, there just seconds before you need it, modern luxury, etc, Carnival touts fun. The staff is all about fun. We don't find it intrusive, some do. Overall, staff are engaging, very friendly and at all times, fun to be around.

I've always felt that Celebrity has done a very good job of translating their corporate motos and objectives for service into performance at the ship level by their crews, hotel and restaurant/bar staff. I think as time has gone on though, they've squeezed, as the saying goes, about as much blood out of the turnip that is possible. I've been told by restaurant managers that the implementation of Luminae as well as anytime dining has been hard on them in terms of numbers of staff available to provide a level of service that they would like to deliver. As well, we were disappointed to see the Ocean Liner themed restaurants go away to be replaced (except on Millennium I believe) with homogeneous, and in my view, downgraded versions of the Tuscan Grill. In order to keep pace with the expanding dining venues of competitors in the cruise industry, particularly Carnival, Celebrity embarked on a plan to shoe-horn differently themed restaurants into their ships. They shoehorned anytime dining into a portion of the MDR and then Luminaie into another portion of it. I don't think they carried that off very well and restaurant managers present during this transition that I spoke to about it don't like it either.

In my view, Carnival has done a better job here. They've provided more and different dining spaces for the various choices diners might make on their ships. They two did this during major refits but it is better executed from an engineering stadnpoint. For example, for anytime dining, whihc is in a completely separate space from the fixed seating dinning area, you check in at a location that is separate form the dining room area where anytime diners are seated. At this location the staff manning it will know what tables/seats are available. If one is available, you'll be given a ticket, proceed directly to the door, present the ticket to the host and get seated. If there is a wait, you will be given a device that will flash when you are to be seated. This process avoids the irritating crowd that typically assembles just outside the any-time dinning venue you wish to be seated at for dinner. That there are more dining venues and options, completely separate and well spaced, also tends to lessen the crowd that wants to eat at any of them at a given time of the day.

Carnival cruisers seem less likely to want to dress up. We liked getting dressed for dinner and that Celebrity has, well, de-emphasized formal dining, a curious move it seems to me if they want a more spendy, upscale segment of the cruiser market, Celebrity isn't differentiating itself to the extent necessary for me to enjoy more formal dining and then pay more for a cruise to get it.

Carnival (and all the lines associated with Carnival Corp.) has assiduously avoided the perks that Celebrity started a few years back (good, better, best) and other cruise lines (Princess, NCL) have followed. At first Celebrity offered these perks to provide incentives to book OV and Balcony cabins, then started offering all four of them to book suites. It appears to me that they now just provide additional revenue and not incentives to book a particular cabin class. In order to compare cruise pricing on a per day basis, you have to do a good deal of math - simple but time consuming - to figure out how much more one is paying for a perk and if it is worth it. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

We have always liked the beverage package; we like the Martini bar and usually upgrade to the premium package on the first day but we've found we can save money by using our Elite Plus perk (drink tickets) between 5pm and 7pm and do fine with that - sad face - miss the Martini bar. So, if the price for that perk provides a savings, we get it, if not we don't. Point being, you have to do the math.

Cocktail and wine prices per serving on Carnival are comparable to those on Celebrity. However, their liquor policy is a bit more liberal. You can actually pre-sail purchase liter bottles of your favorite liquor along with mixers, 750ml bottles of wine, avoiding the 15% gratuity, and have them delivered to your cabin. On some ships, you can re-order but will pay the 15% gratuity. The pricing is high (Skyr Vodka, one Liter, $70) but on a per drink basis, this approach has value. You can carry a case of water or soda aboard, leave it with the porter at check in and it ends up in your cabin along with your luggage. Again, you have to do the math and cruisers looking for ways to cruise less expensively and for value should be doing it.

This has turned into a much longer post than I intended. I hope it is useful. There is nothing wrong with Celebrity; nothing wrong with any of the other cruise lines. Different in the eye of the beholder, all of them. For us, we're trying to stretch our cruise budget to cruise as often as we can for as little as we can per cruise and still enjoy it. I will say that, on balance, Celebrity no longer offers the value to us that it once did. For those willing to pay for the service in the Suite Life on Celebrity, it can be but we are just as happy on other cruise lines that offer something new, different or something of greater value to us. Shop around. Try something different every now and then. Come back to what you are comfortable with and we still find that in Celebrity.

Happy cruising.

There is hope for America's youth with comments from parents who have chosen to do so on this thread. Impressive!

I'm pushing 70 now, my 4 kids are 28, 30, 40 and 42 - 3 girls and a boy who is 40. From these 4, I have 6 grand kids, the 28 year old is pregnant for the first time and the 30 year old just got engaged.

Cruising was not something we did when raising my kids but I wish it had been and for the very reason one poster mentioned about family time, about bonding and how valuable that was. Since we're now empty nesters by many, many years, we cruise 3-4X per year and love it.

Had a recent grand-kids cruise with a 7, 7 and 9 year old on Carnival Sunshine. We laid down the rules and enforced them. They had a ball and maybe liked best the dinner and pool times that they spent with Grandma and Grandpa .... family time. Every time we see them now they ask, "when are we going on another cruise?

I cannot emphasize the importance of family and bonding in a way that is comfortable for you and yours. It will endure. Life time memories and impressions.

The package price is the same before boarding as it is after.

Agree.

If your price for the beverage package is about $1050 each that equates to one person spending $55 and change every day on beverages. The break even point is that you both do that. Ask yourself, is that going to happen?

There are plenty of on-line resources to determine drink prices for your cruise. There are even .xls spread sheets that can help you make a determination of whether or not it is the right thing for you or not. Just make sure the drink pricing in them is current.

With two Martini's at the Martini bar at around $15 per pop with gratuity, a nice glass of wine with both lunch and dinner ($18), an after dinner coffee, whiskey or liquor ($7-8), you're there.

That's a pretty good deal of booze per day. Your mileage will vary. That math also assumes your partner drinks the same amount as you do. (not even close to the case with me). We did drink packages on the first leg of one month B2B on Millenium in Asia. I cancelled the package on the second leg because I felt compelled to make the break-even mark each day. Not good.

We did fine on the second leg just paying for the drinks and I felt much better on arising every morning.

...... I don't know of any low cost airlines over here where you don't pay additional fees for hold bags and chosen seats......

First, thanks for your response .......

I was going to go into this (low cost airlines operating within the EU). But, my post was getting way too long. If I am not mistaken, your EU regulators require airline web sites to be very clear about fare pricing up-front. You can select Option A, B or C. The price for each option has to be inclusive.

I recently booked with Swiss Air out of ZRH and it was very clear what the terms of each option were with regard to luggage, reserved seats and so on. No math required. Nice. Compared to US Airlines, it is much clearer for the consumer and I suspect that is a result of the regulators. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this.

We think it's quite strange having to establish how much you're actually paying for an item rather than it being stated on the goods themselves.

I agree with you, it is strange. Most consumer advocates over here believe the entity selling the goods or services needs to be completely up-front about the cost of them. Have you ever tired to purchase wireless service in the US? Compare providers? Obfuscation abounds; all intended to portray to the unwary consumer that you're getting a better deal from Sprint, Horizon, T-Mobile, whatever, than AT&T or visa-versa. Absurd.

I think blizzardboy's issue is with X deciding what is characterised as a 'repo' to suit their needs (I, too, would be upset in his case), rather than added on costs to the cruise fare.

Understood. It's all part of the trend of selling a product the process of which (marketing scheme if you will) tends to advantage the seller over the buyer, notwithstanding the tried and true dictum, "let the buyer beware." I would have thought as a civilization we would have progressed a bit beyond that period in Roman history. Not so fast .....

Now totally off subject, I wonder if Kusadasi is still on our itinerary :D?

Have heard nothing yet. I'm sure you too are watching the itineraries of other cruise lines and ships as well as Celebrity. I think Rhodes is the most likely port for us. Kusadasi seems to me to be fading as Erdogan advances his purge of those he sees as disloyal to him - upwards of 60k people have been arrested and detained without charges in the public and military sector. Stories of abuses and lack of due process among those detained abound. Very sad for a beautiful once vibrant, politically and economically, country undergoing what appears to be a putz at the hands of a tyrant. We shall see.

This thread laughable I hope some of you are not serious. ..........

Appreciate your perspective southernbreezes.

One of the issue, among others, for those who have posted on the subject of Celebrity's marketing approach and taken issue with it is that Celebrity states perks in the Good-Better-Best (G-B-B) promotions are "free." blizzardboy characterized this as a "classic bait and switch" marketing approach.

I suppose one can quibble about definitions of "bait and switch" but from his perspective as a car dealership owner, when a dealer advertises "free" floor-mats, service for one year, under-body protectant, any number of things like this they are never free. They are baked into the final price that the dealership is willing to sell you the car you want.

Here's another example: Spirit Airlines, a relatively new player in the low-cost, no frills airline industry, advertises a fare both on their web site and that fare will also appear on search engines a shopper might use. Is that the actual cost to you for the flight you want to take? Nope.

By the time you finish a booking with Spirit, what appeared to be a super low fare in comparison to other airlines competing for your business on that route turns out to be only a few dollars less ...... if you have any bags to check or a carry on larger than a purse or lap top carrier, if you want a seat other than the ones no one ever reserves, if you don't want to board last and risk no overhead storage for the bag you did carry on.

Is this Honest? Is it Ethical? Is it legal? Depends on your perspective I guess but the FAA has implemented rules limiting this approach for US flagged carriers. IOW, airlines must list the total price for the flight, up front including taxes, fees, luggage fees if any, advance seat reservations, if any and so forth. Spirit has figured out how to be in compliance with FAA regs but, IMO, it's in the gray area. Their competitors have done similar types of things that Spirit has done and the industry is pretty much back to the confusing array of options for a flight from point A to B and back.

My sense is that Celebrity has done something similar with their pricing strategies in order to boost the attractiveness of their fares compared to their competitors. Other Lines have joined in with that approach. Is this Honest? Is it Ethical? Is it legal? Depends on your perspective I guess.

One final example and I'll do this in round figures: Let's say you found a fare for a Inside Cabin on a 7d Caribbean cruise for $975pp. There are no perks (G-B-B promotion) with this fare. It's essentially no frills. I have no problem with this other than the minor one that advertised fare does not include taxes and port fees of $275pp. It's there in the small print and it sorts out as you go through the booking process but, nonetheless ....

Now let's say you'd like to avail yourself of some perks offered in the G-B-B promotion. You can get one perk with an OV, two with a Balcony and up from there where you'll get all 4 by booking a suite. Let's look at a balcony because we want two perks. You will likely spend somewhere between $2800 and $3500 for the Balcony booking depending on Cabin Category. The value to you of your perks maxes out at about $1000. So, you paid at a minimum $1825 more pp to get $1000 in perks or and IOW, Celebrity grabs $825 from you (an up-sale) and gives you perks that cost them considerably less in real dollars to them than the perceived value to you. As well, as you move up in cabin class and category, the delta, or the difference between what Celebrity is getting from you and what they are making in profit goes up exponentially.

It's easy to see how many variables this kind of calculation allows Celebrity to determine what the actual cost of the cabin fare to you is and what offering these perks costs them. They do it all the time by offering maybe two perks or three for lower cabin classes.

This kind of approach is nothing startling, offensive or really unethical (again depending on your perspective). It is not illegal within the cruise industry because there is no comparable governing body like The FAA. and who is to say a governing body would regulate this. Celebrity is in the business of making money. No problem with me in the regard. I just want them to be transparent with how they do it.

But I don't think that is the case. The cruising consumer has to do a lot of math to determine if the extra money spent for the balcony and the accompanying two perks is worth it to them. In the example above for the 7n Caribbean cruise, those that are going to drink more than about $675pp ($825 - $150pp for the typical OBC), it may very well be. For those that don't, it won't. What if their giving two perks instead of the usual one for a particular booking. Break out the calculator.

I'd argue the cruising consumer shouldn't have to do that. I can assure you Celebrity has done the math on all of this and it is NOT, on a pure cost basis, going to be in your favor. I'd also point out that from a marketing perspective, that department within corporate hopes you won't do the math and that you'll be just fine with thinking all these perks in G-B-B promotion are "free" and that is an unbelievably fantastic deal. GO CELEBRITY! That's probably what aggravates me the most. It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth about how Celebrity goes about doing business.

...... Carnival doesn't play that game. It doesn't matter your perks on any of their cruise lines, you still qualify for the Shareholder benefit.

Good point in the context of your original post of which I only quoted a small part.

Maybe 2-3 years ago, when it became apparent to me that Celebrity didn't really value my then 24 cruises with them (now 30), I started looking around. I also felt somewhat unappreciated when Lutoff-Perlo moved Celebrity away from it's original marketing and overall service approach and focused on "Modern Luxury."

In my view the heart of this approach was to target and sell to a high wage earning market who want and will pay for a high end experience in the "Suite Life" with it's exclusive dining coupled with very expensive concierge shore tours, some of them involving $300+ pp culinary experiences.

I'm not in that target market and don't feel compelled to spend that kind of money on a cruise. I'd call myself a value cruiser, not a luxury cruiser. Your mileage may vary and I hold no enmity for those cruisers who can afford and who want luxury and exclusivity. I'll also say, I've never felt like a second class citizen on any Celebrity cruise by not booking a suite or being a part of the group that dines in Lumina or Blu. We still like the overall, shipboard Celebrity experience.

It's the marketing approach that I dislike and the complex array of perks, the way cabins are priced that make it difficult at first glance to determine what you are paying for your cabin. It's certainly not impossible to do that but, please, don't try to obfuscate pricing in an effort to make a sale at a higher pricing level without being clear about how the actual cost of a perk is baked into the final pp price of the cruise.

As you said, Carnival isn't playing that game. They don't offer enticing perks, your cabin value on a price per day, per person basis is easy to determine. You want a drink package or cabin credits, you buy them and here is the price per day, per person for that. On that basis (cost per day) Carnival is offering comparable cabins at a lower cost. Since I'm looking for good value, I have Three Carnival cruises booked in 2017 v. only one Celebrity cruise.

Moreover, on Carnival's newer ships (Conquest Class comparable to M class), there are more included dining options and the up-charge for their specialty restaurants ranges from $25 to $35pp. Their newest ship (Vista Class - a mega ship) has 26 dining offerings.

If you want to pay for exclusivity (and it IS expensive) you can book into Carnival's version of suite class on Vista, the Havana Club, that features a Havana Suite guests only pool area, various exclusive eateries and clubs and controlled, key access to this high end area. Industry wide, this seems to be the trend creating a haves and have-nots sort of dichotomy on cruising vessels that only reflects, and fairly so, IMO, the value of hard work in this country.

Bottom line, I'm not at all upset with Celebrity for taking the path Lutoff-Perlo appears to be taking the company- it's a reflection of the overall trends in the cruise industry. I'm not abandoning Celebrity for other lines. But unlike Carnival whose pricing approach, IMO, is much more straight forward, Celebrity, again IMO, tends to make it difficult to understand an accurate cabin cost per day, pp and in the end game, when you finally get to it, Celebrity tends to be more costly for comparable cabins than Carnival. In my view, that is purposeful and somewhat distateful to me. IOW, for us right now, when you compare on a cost basis, we're getting better value from Carnival than we are from Celebrity.

That assessment does not take into account subjective experiences that might influence buying preference based on one cruise line, one ship, one group of Navigation Officers, Hotel staff or Food and Beverage staff, entertainment or tours and, of course, itinerary. That is an important qualifier here and one that may very well over-ride the value basis for selecting a particular cruise or cruise line.

MommaBear55 ...... thanks for posting and glad you did well.

I have a question. I am a Physician Assistant. I work in an ER. The rule in Strokes and MIs is, "time is tissue." IOW, you must assure adequate perfusion to brain and heart tissue to stop it from being damaged.

Did you receive any kind of clot-busters (technically and usually tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) while you were in the care of the Ship's MD? There are time limits within which you can administer this stuff so, if you didn't get it aboard, you probably didn't get it. There are also certain contraindications beside time for getting it. No need to disclose those. Just want to know if you got it while aboard.

As an aside and for others, getting tPA can be life saving in the case of MIs, reduce cardiac disability post MI and for stoke can substantially reduce post stroke disabilities. I'd like to know if tPA is being used in the ship's medical facility because we all should want it administered if you meet both the time criteria and don't have any contraindications to its administration.

........What makes the difference is the effort made to correct a problem when it occurs, and trying to make sure it doesn't happen again........ you don't need to play games with your customers if you have a solid product and are good at what you do.

Frankly, you are spot on and nailing Celebrity for what they do with their marketing schemes is completely fair.

Anyway, I applaud your candor in this matter. I also think as a car dealership owner, you understand the value of sales. I can't criticize Celebrity for that as they may rightfully think their marketing strategy, which you and I might dislike, seems to be helping them remain right up their in cornering their share of the cruising market.

I get literally dozens of emails from Celebrity every week announcing a new deal. I look at them but, like most experienced cruise shoppers, you can tell within a few minutes whether or not what they're offering constitutes a good deal. The confusing array of perks, where and when they are offered and so forth makes it hard for Celebrity's CSRs to keep up, let alone Travel Agents and us. I've remarked you have to be a lawyer to wade through the paragraphs of fine print on these offers.

I'm pretty sure that in designing their marketing strategy, they don't know many of us on this board and elsewhere who get these offers have cruised with them 30 or more times. We know what is a good deal and what isn't.

I'm also pretty sure =X's= marketing focus on their loyal customers, caring about and nurturing brand loyalty is not a priority. I think that is a mistake.... and, to be clear, I don't view the Captain's Club loyalty program to amount to much and it is a program that I believe is vastly underused as a sales approach.

As you obviously did running your car business, doing that - making loyal customers feel special - insures that first customer who walked into your showroom will keep coming back because his experience with it from the sale of the vehicle to servicing it to trading it in for the next new car was not only superb but your business/employees left the impression he/she was treated fairly and with due recognition of his/her innate or acquired, car buying intelligence.

It is no error in marketing approaches that high end car dealers like Cadillac, BMW and Mercedes DO focus on developing brand loyalty and serve/pursue that market segment vigorously. I think you and I would prefer Celebrity did a better job at that. Do I have that right?

I'd suggest Celebrity mine some data on their loyal customers by name, find out where they go and what they like and offer them savings or on-board programs ear marked for them. After all, over a decade of cruising there are customers who are literally going to spend or have spent 100s of thousands of dollars on their product. Kinda like high end cars, isn't it.

That would be nice but I have a sense that their market research shows them that they can make more money by marketing strategies that might have met PT Barnum's view, “Nobody ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the American public” ...... or better yet, in targeting a particular segment of the cruiser market, “There's a sucker born every minute.”

Again blizzardboy, thanks for your post.

Part of the problem with disruptive and unruly children on summer time Celebrity cruises is enforcement of the rules that address this kind of behavior. Your cruise contract is loaded with rules about this. I can't say definitively whether there is some or no enforcement at all. I don't track it actually .......

Because we are very selective with regards to when we cruise. When we do cruise over a vacation period where children are likely to be aboard, we plan accordingly and try to be where they are not ....... Moreover, when we do encounter young people, for the most part they've been quite well behaved. Still, I get the aggravation over the overly boisterous ones.

I too have found a lot of glitches in the program that Celebrity uses to run/display their web site. My Grandson writes programs that companies use too run their web sites.

He reports that the cost of web development can be staggering and he is well paid to do it. He also reports that few programs running these web sites are very good and suffer from what is called patching - something doesn't work quite right and a programmer writes a short string of commands to fix it but neglects to make sure those commands integrate properly with the hundreds, sometimes thousands of lines of code in the overall program.

It's an industry wide problem and requires talent and resources to produce good web sites. The problem you've encountered involves what is called drilling down information. It involves integrating several levels of code. You can imagine what happens when a programmer, trying to fix something at one level, fixes it, but neglects to integrate it with the code for other levels.

Sorry for your frustration and while this explanation doesn't excuse Celebrity's management of their web site maybe it helps for people to understand why things sometimes don't work. I would also recommend that if you have a problem on the web site that you try to contact technical support for the web site. I've never looked to see if Celebrity has such a number but contacting a CSR is generally a waste of time as they are just not able to sort out the kind of complex thing you are trying to do. Sometimes a tech support guy can and will be able to identify a problem and put in a work order to fix it.

When RCL first offered ChoiceAir a while back, it was a mess. The technology involved in airfare pricing used by the airlines has advanced so far in the last 5 years that consolidators like ChoiceAir that are maximizing the functionality of this technology have gotten really good. I use ChoiceAir almost exclusively on cruises departing from international ports and find pricing to be quite good ....... esp., as someone has already mentioned, on one way fares.

An added benefit is that making ChoiceAir bookings insures that Celebrity will get you there. No charge. The airlines charge considerable fees for flight insurance (not to be confused with medical/evacuation insurance). We are sailing out of Venice in August of this year. I booked arrangements to fly into Zurich to visit my daughter who live there for 5d separately. I booked the Zurich to Venice leg, same day of the sailing, with ChoiceAir who booked the connection I had already identified as the one I wanted (Swiss Air) at a price about $20 pp lower than what was showing at other web sites including Swiss Air's.

Something to think of on a related note. Traveling between European destinations on airlines licensed to fly there looks, at first glance, to be inexpensive. All the European based carriers use tiered pricing and you have to look very carefully at what is included in the fare you are selecting. There are usually 3-4 tiers. The lowest tier, and therefore the lowest pricing, severely restricts what you can carry on board and, of course, the more you want to travel with, the higher the price.

Not only that but European airlines actually enforce baggage size and weight limitations for carry-ons and checked bags. Make sure you carefully read baggage size and weight for both carry-ons and checked bags for the airline you are flying with. There are subtle differences among European carriers and they are quite a bit different than US carriers.

Some thoughts on the changing Celebrity experience ........

We started cruising in 2001. First sailing was on Mercury. Since then, we've sailed Celebrity 29 other times. Carnival X 3, MSC x 1, RCL x 3, NCL x 4 and Oceania X 2. Each line has as different character, each ship within a line a different feel.

Over the years we've found Celebrity to fit our cruising personality and value needs the best but there has definately been changes. None of them, however, enough to cruise on another line and leave Celebrity behind. Here's a quick list of changes we've seen since 2001:

Reduction in service staff - Hotel, Food and Beverage Departments but not within the Engineering, Navigation or Safety Departments.

Food quality, portion size, the dining experience overall.

Transition in the specialty restaurants.

Pour size at the bars.

Transition in the entertainment area.

Cabin pricing and perk packaging.

What has not changed is our overall experience aboard Celbrity ships. We like it even though it is different. We've kind of gone with the flow recognizing that the market dictates the changes we've seen and that I've listed above. In my view, Celebrity has done an excellent job of retaining market share. That reflects well on the direction corporate has taken in my view. Others may disagree.

Some of the things in that regard that I think Celebrity has done particularly well at:

Pricing. We are value cruisers. We feel the best bang for our crusing buck is cruising in OV cabins and optimizing both booking incentives (on and off the ship) and perks. If you look at the pricing for the 4th of July Specials, there are some very good deals with pricing coming in at well under $100 per day if you want a no frills experience in an inside cabin or just a shade over that if you book an OV and take the perks.

When you compare pricing on an apples to apples basis between cruise lines, you'll see Celbrity provides great value. That's important to us essentially in retirement and flexible on dates. Other factors will play differently for those without flexible schedules. In that case, cruisers may not be able to take advantage of the sailings that aren't getting heavily booked, in the shoulder seasons and so forth.

Despite the changing dining experience we still find it pretty enjoyable. The table staff don't have as much time to engage and entertain you and those that do are a cut above and tend to get promoted if they so desire. The specialty restaurants do not offer the service they did in the past that made them worth an up charge and the up charge now is just too high. I'm disappointed in the end of the ocean liner themed restaurants on the M class ships but times change, dining preferences among cruisers change and the things Celebrity is trying are consistent with what the demand seems to be in the restaurant business. The dining venues in the S class ships are a reflection of that and so are the changes and additions in the M class ships.

We love the Martini bars. They've undergone some changes over the years. What used to be the Martini bar on the M class ships is now a wine bar and of course the S class ships introduced the newest version of them and as the M class ships were soltstisized that feature was added. On our last cruise on Summit in May, the Martini bar served martinis in Champagne glasses. I was told that the new martini glasses ordered for the bar didn't arrive in time for the cruise. OK. How do you let that happen? But we survived!

If those of you who cruised before, say, 2010, remember the Martini glasses, you will remember they were very special, large to say the least. Bartenders just poured into the shaker, they never measured and filling those glasses took at least 4 oz, closer to 5. While they don't use shot glasses to measure now, they are measuring in the shaker and very carefully. The pour is right around 3.5 oz. and the martini glasses that used to be at the other bars are now the standard ar the Martini bar. They are much smaller.

Shows: we are Broadway fans so, we like the shows. One thing I have noticed is that creeping into the production shows is a lot of areal work, less Broadway and one of the new production shows Elyria, is out there though we still enjoy it. Celebrity recently started a separate production show entity called The Studio. All the shows are being developed and produced there in Miami then moved to the ships. If anything, the quality of the productions is higher but they are different. Casting is also controlled by The Studio and, yes, this makes a difference ship by ship. You'll find some really great performers and some pretty average. However, the competition for parts is huge so, there's a natural thinning process that, we think, is pretty good.

Finally, I think Celebrity, like most other main stream lines, along with the airlines, have a tiered approach to pricing. I.e., you get what you pay for. Suite class, Concierge and Aqua Class offers more if you want to pay for it. Private dining is one of them and from what I hear while the food is not a lot different, the level of service is. Carnival has Havana Staerooms and suites, on the newer ships, a completely private area. I will say I've never felt class conscious aboard Celebrity. I have on Carnival. There is a very real difference in the character of passengers booking ordinary Carnival cabins and those booking Havana cabins. I think Celebrity has done a good job of implementing an upscale cruise experience without alienating the rest. Carnival, by far the biggest line having the biggest market share, is working to capture a larger portion of cruisers willing to pay the price tag for exclusivity. Don't know if it's working. I haven't seen the numbers.

...... We did a 14 day B2B on the Regal Princess this past Feb. It was nice, but we still preferred Celebrity overall.

....... and that's the thing. Celebrity, despite the change in the Celebrity experience over the last decade, continues to so some things right to the point that they maintain some level of market edge and if I have it right, that is statistically demonstrable.

I picked up a copy of National Geographic Traveler while I was waiting for my wife to finish up. I noted it was a March 2010 edition. Thumbing through it, there was an article bemoaning the way the cruise industry had shifted from revenue generation from cabin bookings to revenue generation from sales of beverages, spa treatments, boutique items, specialty dining, various entertainment venues, on and on. This was 2010!!!

As someone else posted here, "there are the share holders ......."

I think that pretty much sums up what is driving the changes we are seeing in the cruise industry in general and in Celebrity in particular. What stands out to me is that if the numbers regarding Celebrity's market share are correct, they are doing a pretty good job of managing the changes.

While there's a downside to the GBB (formerly 1,2,3, Go) promotions, most notably the drink package, it was Celebrity that introduced this perk and it has obviously been successful from a profit generating perspective and after all ......

"there are the share holders."

Just a quick update after arriving home last night.

We don't normally do this but we used Celebrity Transportation because it was a part of package. We much prefer coming and going on our schedule, not Celebrity's. However, I think using this option out of Bayonne, whether you are flying from Newark, JFK or LaGuardia, is a good one.

Our debarkation time, 8:40a, was established by the timetable for the busses. If you had an early flight, you went early, if not, late, like us. The Debarkation was nicely organized and cruisers were compliant with instructions, i.e., nobody appeared to screw it up by just leaving whenever they felt like it. There was the usual, self debarkation where you can walk off with your bags starting at 7:30a or any time after that. If you have bags checked, your departure time was determined by your airline's departure time. You'll fill out a debarkation questionnaire on Tuesday - seems early but this takes a lot of coordinating from Guest Services.

The new Port Liberty Terminal is really laid out nicely for coming and going. Bags were all neatly organized, easy to locate, porter service was readily available and Customs was quick and easy mainly because there were enough Customs Agents to handle the numbers and the flow of passengers into the debarkation area was controlled by Celebrity Guest Services and nicely worked by the Terminal Staff (they work for the port agent).

When you exit the terminal, if you are taking bus transport arranged by Celebrity, you'll be directed to the bus area by staff. There will be a person there to check you in. He will have a list of passengers who are supposed to be on the busses. If you're not on it, you won't get on. Make sure you have a copy of your transport voucher with you. If you included this in your fare, the voucher will be in your cruise documents that were emailed (in .pdf format) to you. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE VOUCHER. We were not on the list, I produced the voucher and on we went.

The trip to Newark (EWR) is quick - about 40 minutes. Last time we did this we flew out of JFK - a zoo if you can avoid it. We recommend that if you fly in, use EWR. The airport is huge. My only gripe is that with flying United, we were dropped off at the departure level (3) but only those with Premier Boarding check in on that level. We had to lug our bags down an elevator to level 2. After that, check in was simple.

We fly a good deal but I have to tell you the process, across the industry, is rapidly changing. Check in is automated, completely automated with United, less so with Delta, our main carrier out of ATL. You no longer approach the counter with your bags and after that your check in is done by a human. It's now done at the ubiquitous Kiosks that can be off putting and confusing to us old-timers. The easiest way to beat this is to know your booking/reservation number; you have the option of inputting this to the user interface at the Kiosk or you can scan your boarding pass (not the ones on your phone though if you do that), a credit card or your passport. I find that hard as you have to fumble for your wallet, purse or wherever these are stored.

We recommend you get yourself a travel documents pouch to wear around your neck. I've found these immensely helpful. I put everything I need in it and there it dangles within easy reach when I need boarding passes, passports, Global Entry Cards, your booking number, etc. With United, you print your boarding pass and baggage tags at the Kiosk, attach the baggage tags and carry your bags to an agent who weighs them, puts them on the baggage conveyor and sends you to your gate.

A great trip on Summit to Bermuda with the renown Captain Kate in charge. Yes, the Celebrity experience has changed over the last decade and there is a couple of good threads on this subject. Change is hard but its also good for the brain and the soul to learn to adapt to it.

Almost exactly my experience on Summit last week that you encountered, digital-curator, with a few exceptions. I also share your view of your personal Celebrity Experience over the years. Very much the same as mine.

I posted a detailed review of the Summit/Bermuda trip from last week here:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2366713

I was not aware of spa staff pushing product. They were around but didn't force themselves on me nor did I feel compelled to hear them out if I chose to say hello and say not interested.

I think this sort of hard sell thing is ship specific and depends on the Canyon Ranch Spa Manager.

I was also not aware of any hard sell from the shops. Plenty of literature circulating and info on sales and such but never felt pushed. I also think this is ship specific and, if I'm not mistaken, just like the spa/Canyon Ranch, the shops are contracted out.

Regardless, I wouldn't think badly enough about this if I did encounter it. There are plenty of ways to simply avoid it.

......... If you were offered a 30 or 50% discount at the specialty restaurant, would it have been worth it? We've never done one but were expecting to try it on our upcoming Summit cruise. .......

 

........Our cabin will be on Deck 11. Is the movie on deck 11 or on deck 12? Oceanview cafe & sunset bar/oceanview bar are on 10 right?

On your first question, we have the benefit (or curse) of having experienced the absolute best service in the Ocean Liner themed restaurants on all the M class ships at least once. So, the bar is high and Tuscan Grill on Summit, didn't get there. So, going forward, I think we'll be reluctant to do specialty dining for the time being.

Having said that, yes, I think you should try it at a discount. As far as Qsine is concerned, it is much more fun to dine there in a group of 4 or more, 6 is best and allows a chance to taste each offering.

Each cruise is different with respect to discounting specialty restaurant visits. Whether or not it is offered is based on bookings, either from precruise or ongoing as the cruise proceeds. Don't be dismayed if discounts are not being offered on the first day. They undoubtedly will be along the way. When booking, do it live with one of the staff who will either be making reservations in one of the public areas (e.g., the entrance to Ocean View Cafe or entrance to the restaurant itself) and ask for a discount.

On your second question, I misspoke regarding the new Movie venue. It is on Deck 12. If you are aft on deck 11, there is a door that exists on a stair case. Just go up it to get to the movies. I have read comments from past cruisers with aft cabins on deck 11 that they were not disturbed by movie sounds from deck 12 above.

Still aboard Summit headed back to Bayonne and enjoying our last day. Here are some thoughts and observations about the Summit, Port Liberty and the stop in Bermuda.

Pre-Cruise: There's great value in reading the Celebrity forum at Cruise Critic.com as well as the Roll Call for your particular cruise. With respect to this Summit cruise from Bayonne (Port Liberty), we'd seen the Summit daily for each day of the cruise and had a handle on the menus in Summit's dining venues (The Cosmopolitan MDR, Qsine, Tuscan Grill, Pool Grill, Oceanview Cafe Buffet, Bistro On Five, Cafe Al Bacio). We also saw the gym schedule, show schedule and solo performers venues/schedule.

This cruise, as we had done 3 years ago on the Summit itinerary to Bermuda, we selected the Book and Go option. Included in that cruise package was discounted R/T air through ChoiceAir ($100 pp off the best price I could find) 2 nights in NYC at the Westin Times Square, a Broadway Show and all transportation to and from.

We saw Finding Neverland paid for by Celebrity as part of the package and booked a second show, Kinky Boots, on our own. Ate at a restaurant off Times Square on 45th called Becco. Moderately priced, fantastic Italian cuisine. The rest of the time we ate inexpensively in the hundreds of small cafes near our hotel. If you like NYC, great food and Broadway shows, given all this pre cruise package offers, it is a good value. On to Summit and Bermuda............

Prior to sailing, Summit faced two tropical depressions affecting this itinerary in the Western Atlantic. We recommend you be prepared for rain and windy weather. Forecasters are calling for a lot of named storms this summer in the Carribbean and Western Atlantic. Don't get anxious about this just be prepared. Pack a light weight waterproof jacket and a couple of umbrellas. Leave the rest of it to the Navigation Officers and Captain. I'll talk about this more later.

This is our 31st cruise with Celebrity since 2001. We've seen the subtle and not so subtle changes in the Celebrity cruise experience. I'll address some of those changes later.

Boarding: All the cruise lines have gotten very efficient boarding passengers. Port Liberty is no exception. The terminal is new since we last cruised out of Bayonne, NJ. Everything was well organized, we processed and boarded around noon. Cabins were, as advertised, ready at 1p. We recommend you only have one small back pack type carry on with you. This way you can explore the ship, dine and move about easily. Check everything else at curb side. It will show up at your cabin before about 4:30p. We recommend you carry some small bills to tip the longshoremen who load your bags. These are not Celebrity employees but rather work for the port.

First impression of Summit : For a 14 year old vessel, Summit looks great after it's recent refurbishment. Plenty of fresh looks. New decks in the top side public areas, fresh paint and varnish - what a ship-shape ship should look like. Normandy is gone and replaced by Tuscan Grill 2.0 as they call it. The aft pool area has been decorated in warm earth tones - very appealing. New wicker look furniture there too. Throughout the ship, lots of repainted ceilings, new carpets and just a nice feeling throughout. We've not been up to deck 11 to see the new Movies under the stars set-up yet. Maybe later if the weather cooperates. Summit tends toward slightly darker woods. I think this makes it feel warmer compared to the Solstice class ships and that is not a ding on those vessels. They just have a lighter, more modern feel to them.

Internet: Greatly improved. We get some free time and so checking in allows automatic assignment of those free minutes. We did not make use of the Xcellerate system which costs $19/d. No need for us in checking email and some browsing activities. Whatever we were using had good speed and connectivity so, it appears the overall system is improved whether you need the greater speed and bandwidth associated with Xcellerate or not.

Cabin: on M class vessels we book OV cabins on deck 3 all the way forward almost exclusively now. We've found we don't use the balcony in the Veranda class cabins much. We do like light so OVs are great for us and allows us to access 1 or 2 perks. Were in Cabin 3005 with easy access to the forward elevator. We don't book Concierge, Aqua or Suite classes. I'd rather cruise twice in an OV for the price of one cruise in a Suite or the like. Access to private dining in Luminae or Blu doesn't make sense for us. We're perfectly happy with the dining options available to us. We are not fans of the push from corporate for cruisers to select the suite life. However, we get it. There's money to be made in a demographic that has the money to book more expensive cabins. We are value cruisers looking to optimize the days we can spend at sea in a year and booking suites limits that objective. Personally, we don't find what is offered in the more expensive cabin classes worth it to us. Each to his own.

There's plenty of drawer space for a 7d trip in the OV cabins. While we have coupons for laundry service, we usually don't need it on itineraries under 9 days. There appears to be new carpet present. Otherwise the cabin is the same as before. There is a large port hole with a 5 ' diameter. Plenty big and there is a 20" recessed shelf in front of the port hole for putting stuff on it. The port hole makes the OV cabins feel larger than comparable inside cabins. Bathrooms are designed well with plenty of space for us. There is a trash bin in a pull out drawer and storage space below the sink. No outlets, the shower is quite large, good shower head pressure and controls.

Entertainment and activities: there are more things to do on Summit than can be done on a 7 day cruise. The only way anyone would remark that they couldn't find something they liked doing or thought the entertainment or activities were lacking isn't taking enough time to look at their daily and go do it. Celebrity has greatly expanded how it entertains its passengers aboard ship. Beyond the Podium lectures and Celebrity life activities are scheduled every day. Topics vary. There's live music everywhere. Just find the venue and music style you like and enjoy. The production dancers can be seen performing in mini-shows from time to to time. One of them is called Indulgence. Food, drink and dancing for $20 per person. The event is held in the Rendezvous lounge and Wine Bar. It is limited to 80 guests.

There are three main production shows in the Celebrity Theater. We've seen two so far - iHollywood and Sirens. Very entertaining musical performances. There is a new production called iMagic which will reportedly run through November. with some version of it probably going fleet wide. Good magic show featuring a solo magician performance that does some pretty amazing stuff or, "how did he do that?" It was fun. In the past we've not attended many solo performer's shows. We've seen three, two Comedians, both of them good and a group of four doing a Motown records review.

Some of you may know about Silent Disco. My wife had but I've never heard of it. It's held in the Rendezvous Lounge on deck 5. Lots of people wearing head sets that can be tuned to three different genres of music (mixed by a DJ). As you tune, the lights in the head set change colors so you can see who is listening to what and if you want to dance to a certain style of music, find someone with the same colors showing and dance on. Take your headset off and it's quiet. Fun.

Had a brief look at the new movie venue that does the Movies Under the Stars and Tapas. It's on the aft deck 11, a previously unused area. They also show a feature film at 1p daily. It's a nice set-up with wicker couches, tables and cabanas. People have wondered if there is noise from the movie drifting down to the aft bar and cabins located below it. From the Sunset Bar, just below the Movie area, we didn't even hear the movie playing until we walked up the stairs to deck 11. So much for that concern.

Dining: have not found a meal I thought was poor yet. We've dined in the Ocean View Buffet, the MDR, Tuscan Grill, a Barbecue on the pool deck and Bistro on Five. Food quality, with few exceptions, is very high throughout. We had traditional late seating in the MDR at a table for six. Table mates were great and new friendships were made. This is one of the things, dining and meeting new people, we cruise for. Traditional dining seems to do a better job at that than select dining. But that is just us. Others report they can do the same in select dining. We had two regular servers and noted, along with one other assistant and a Sommelier, they covered, by themselves, 8 tables that accounted for 40+ diners. Considering the numbers, the service was well coordinated, attentive and well executed. However, table service is one of the things reduced staffing - an industry wide trend among the leading cruise lines (Carnaval, RCL, NCL) has impacted. Your wait staff has less time to engage you and while this has changed the dining experience, I cannot say it has made it any worse. It is just different.

Menu selections are varied and different each night yet there are several items served every night. These are clearly marked on the menu. It's been our experience that while there is some uniformity in the dishes served aboard Celebrity ships, there is a wide range of execution of each dish by the various chefs. We found the MDR food offerings to be very good a lard Summit and to us it continues to satisfy as it has for the past 30 sailings. In a word, consistently good.

I've not been enamored by the relationship between Celebrity and the Top Chef TV program. The Top Chef cuisine has, in the past, been underwhelming. A lot of that has to do with the importance of getting the dish plated and to the table quickly. Some of it works some of it doesn't. It appears to me that the chefs on Summit have figured out which entrée dishes work and which don't in the larger setting of Summit's cuisine.

I had a delicious Red Fish. It's not like Red Snapper as its a little more dense. Served atop polenta and some veggies. Delicious sauce with a bit of heat in it but not overwhelming. Excellent. For desert I ordered strawberries over basil infused ice cream. Sounds weird, right? That's Top Chef. Their dishes are unique. I mentioned to our waiter that I couldn't taste the basil in the ice cream. Being honest, he told me that all the ice cream gets stacked in the same cooler. Its impossible to differentiate the white ones....... and that exemplifies Top Chef; unique cuisine hard to serve correctly.

Tuscan Grill 2.0: first off let me be up front about my disappointment that Celebrity has moved on from the Ocean Liner themed restaurants on their M class ships. I get why they did this ..... more variety, new experience and I really don't t think it had anything to do with saving or making more money. It's just a change. It's different and that can be important in some cases in the restaurant business. The venue is beautifully done. More elegant than the feel of Tuscan on the solstice class ships. More intimate.

I can speak only for my meal. Another couple dined with us. We had apps including Calamari, excellent, Italian meat balls, better than I had expected and an antipasti board - stale crackers and nothing particularly noteworthy. Disappointing. I ordered the Filet. Well over 10oz, it's a large serving. High quality and tasty. Sides were disappointing. I'm not a fan of what they called Broccolini. Stringy, leafy and tough Broccoli. The potatoes were whipped and probably from something powdered. A garlic clove on top but otherwise tasteless. Deserts nothing special or unavailable in the MDR. Table service was lackluster. That's because, as far as I could tell, there was one head waiter and a Maitre'd, a Sommelier and 2 assistants covering the entire venue. They were serving what appeared to be 3-4 tables at our dining time of 8:30. While adequate, the table service was far below that which we have experienced in past specialty restaurant engagements. What made specialty dining special is pretty much gone it would seem. I'm pretty sure that staffing is demand based and is limited by availability of wait staff at some top number of guests per booking hour. I also think that how staffing is managed by the various Maitre'ds (how wait staff are moved around between dining venues) affects perceptions of table service. In the past, as I understand it, this was not the case. Wait staff graduated and moved up to specialty restaurant wait staff. In a constrained personnel environment, I don't think that is being done any longer. I could be mistaken but, in our experience, the level of service present before In the specialty dining venues is not matched in the latest edition of them.

The point is Tuscan Grill did not deliver for us the kind of specialty restaurant experience we have come to expect. It certainly was not worth the $45 per person cover charge. It was no better, overall, than the MDR which we feel is still very good. We'll skip Qsine this cruise because of what we believe is a fleet wide issue for specialty dining. Specialty dining, it appears, is no longer worth the extra price. I realize our experience might have been unique - a one time bad one - but I sense it was not. Celebrity might sort this out if use declines but I'm not optimistic.

We also dined in Bistro on Five for Lunch. There are some nice tweaks to the menu that, at least on Summit, has not given way to Sushi, just yet. Besides the usual crepe selection, there are a few new salads and sandwiches. Soup of the day, Broccoli and Blue Cheese, was delicious. The color and consistency of a good split pea soup, it had a nice cheese flavor but not overwhelming. Broccoli flavor was present in a balanced fashion. Frankly, we've found the soups in all the dining venues to be particularly good. Seems to b something chefs fleet wide do well. Table service was very attentive and prompt even though it was quite busy. We thought this experience was excellent and worth the $10 per person charge. Our server told us she had been summoned from another station to help out with the increased number of diners in Bistro on Five. This lends credence to the observation I made about wait staff moving based on demand in Tuscan Grill.

Destination: this is our third trip to Bermuda and it gets better every time. We recommend you do do some research and plan out the three days you have there. We are at the point where, with regard to ports, we make a general plan and let things come to us. We don't use ship's excursions. We've also not been enticed by Celebrity's Concierge excursions, those designed by your input and arranged ad hoc by the excursions concierge. Why? You can arrange similar private tours yourself at a much lower cost. We inquired once on a recent Millennium Cruise and the cost was outrageous.

I did review transportation in Bermuda extensively and knew what would work for us. Taxis tend to be expensive unless you are traveling with others and can split the cost. For two, local buses and ferries are the most cost effective means of transportation. Bus and ferry schedules and routes can be found on line and printed or downloaded to a tablet. Transportation is very reliable and robust. It will take you where ever you need and on schedule. Bermuda has a well organized Tourism bureau with an on line web site. If you fill out the contact form there they'll send you a nice brochure and a foldable map that we used extensively.

You can buy bus/ferry tokens at $4.50 each; you can also pay cash but you have to have exact change; there's been comments about using only quarters. I saw two passengers board and pay in bills and quartered. I also saw a bus driver wave a passenger aboard when all he had was $4.

Each time you board a bus or ferry, it requires a token (or cash). If you have a rough idea of where you want to go, you can figure out its transportation cost (one bus ride or two, bus + ferry, etc.) If the cost of individual tokens for your travel plan exceeds $19 per day, buy the one, two or three day passes. One day pass is $19. Even if it's close, we recommend you buy the pass that works best for your sightseeing plans 1, 2 or 3 days. It's convenient. Just show it to the bus driver or boarding supervisor on the ferry and you're done. No fumbling for tokens. Bottom line: you can get to wherever you want to go using the bus and ferry system. Having a prepaid single or multi-day pass makes it easier. If you don't know where to get off, tell the driver when you board to call it out and he will. Keep in mind that the bus stops frequently so what looks like a 30 minute drive actually takes an hour.

There are several ways to buy tokens or passes. (1) there is booth right on the pier just outside and to the right of Summit's debarkation area. (2) office near the ferries which is about a 7 minute walk from the ship. Just ask someone to point it out. It's not obvious. The booth near the ship gets busy. Cruisers are not just buying tokens and passes but also asking a lot of questions about what to do and how to get there. At the other location, it's just passes or tokens and the line, if there is one, moves swiftly. There are also three counter clerks at the ferry office, compared to one at the pier. There's a floating hostess at both locations that will answer questions about what to see and do.

There is a ton of European, especially of the British empire, and US history in Bermuda if you like that sort of thing. Shopping and eating opportunities are plentiful. Beaches, boating and water activities, swimming and snorkeling, dolphin adventures, you name it, it is going on in Bermuda. Do some planning for things you like to do. We recommend you spend a day in St. George and visit Fort St. Catherine. There are two beautiful beaches there with little activity if you like quiet. One of the beaches is associated with a restaurant called Beaches. There are lounge chairs, umbrellas and a bar on the beach. Up the hill is a very nice restaurant with a great view and great food. Bermuda is expensive. Be prepared for that. A typical casual meal will cost upwards of $18 pp. Get fancy and you'll spend $50 pp. Bermuda is not a Caribbean Island, it's very British and prices for everything are much higher than you'll find in, say, St Martin.

To close, there are a couple of things I'd like to bring up:

We were very impressed with how Captain Kate McCue dealt with the weather. She faced two storms that would impact our itinerary. One in the northern Atlantic pushing an active front south west and one moving north eastward across the Florida peninsula from the gulf. Both of these storms packed winds of 65 kts at their centers producing wave heights up to 18 feet. If we sailed the normal course from Bayonne to Bermuda we would have experienced winds up to 45 knots and seas up to 16 feet. A rough ride. Not dangerous to Summit but would produce an uncomfortable passage. Not wanting to put her passengers through that, Captain Kate set a course just west of the normal track and a at a much higher rate of speed (23 kts versus 9.5). The end result was that we passed well south of the southward pushing storm and beat the effects of the northward one. It was cloudy and rainy for most of the passage but smooth sailing with just noticeable motion. We also arrived in Bermuda 12h early to optimize docking conditions. On awakening Wednesday morning, our normal ETA, there were 40 kt winds, soaking rains and poor visibility as the storm moving south from the north passed about 300 miles west of Bermuda. Thankfully, we were already tied up. Smart move. We stayed aboard, many ventured out. While Wednesday was a wash out, Thursday and Friday were beautiful. Nobody, including us, missed much? We were told that NCL Breakaway, the other ship joining Summit at the Dock Yard did not alter their course, had some rough weather and ended up docking in more difficult conditions. Very impressed with how Celebrity handled this situation that would not have been unsafe fro Summit but would have produced unhappy passengers. Kudos.

Having become aware of a perceived decline in service across the Celebrity Line from reading Cruise Critic threads on that subject, I payed carful attention to see evidence of it. As well, there have been complaints of cost cutting measures that allegedly affected the quality of the Celebrity experience. I looked for these too.

I was able to observe and confirm with the Summit Human Resources Director, a decrease in staffing across all departments except Navigation, Engineering and Safety. Departments are being asked to do the same workload with less staff. However, I did not experience any significant decline in service that affected my overall enjoyment of this cruise except as it pertained to my experience at Tuscan Grill.

Bar service was fine at the Sunset Bar, Martini Bar, Cafe Al Bacio, and Revelations. We didn't try any others. The Sunset Bar adjacent to the Ocean View Buffet did get busy during the first hour of lunch service. The two pool bars also get very busy and you might have to wait to get served there. There are circulating bar staff but fewer of them. We weren't bothered by that but I could see how cruisers that make extensive use of the pool and like to be served might. I had no sense that drinks were being watered down or shorted in terms of pour size. We usually get the drink package so this is never an issue for us as anyway; if the drink is not big enough or tasty enough first time around, we just order a second.

Curiously, the Martini bar and most of the other bars didn't have martini glasses of any size. Martinis were being served in Champagne glasses. I was told that an expected shipment of new martini glass ware did not arrive on time for this cruise after the existing service had been collected and packed away. Whoops. I'd worry about this if, on subsequent cruises, the lack of Martini glasses persisted.

Despite the staffing levels in the MDR being lower, I never felt table service was impaired, food was served cold or plates not cleared in a timely manner. Admittedly, we had great table mates and good dinner conversation so, maybe I missed something.

Food prep, presentation and quantity was as usual in the Ocean View Cafe. Very good overall. Tables were cleared promptly when guests left them. When it got very busy, you might find a dirty table but that is nothing new. For your dining experience in the Buffet area, timing is everything. Find times that work for you or just ask any floating manager, and they are everywhere, to clear a table. It never fails.

Something I did notice was how welcoming, friendly and upbeat staff, throughout the ship, were. If I had to guess, staff know there are less of them and somehow understand, either from being told or simply by accepting more responsibility for getting the job done right the first time, get it done. Engagement with cruisers and politeness seems to be emphasized if their ship wide behavior is an indicator of that. They are much more productive without a decline in smiles. It is likely from great leadership from the top down and from screening and hiring responsible kids who are doing the work.

Overall, great ship and tremendous navigation staff (officers) who made good decisions based not on saving fuel and spending less for it but rather on the passengers safety and comfort. The extra fuel used to power the vessel at the higher speeds to avoid stormy waters was high. Impressive. Food remains high in quality, taste and presentation. Portions are smaller but that's fine with me. The Buffet is as varied, beautifully presented and delicious as always. If something is not to your liking, ask for something else. Food and beverage staff will go out of their way to make you happy. Service is a little less attentive, staff have less time to linger and talk but will do so as time permits. However, this situation has not changed our perception of the Celebrity experience. Still very good. I understand the changes in dining venues but, in my view, specialty dining, with the exception of Bistro on Five, is no longer worth the up charge. The good part about that is that multiple dining options still exist and the MDR is still very good.

Seeing lots of dissatisfaction with Celebrity's onboard entertainment. Not an entertainer or entertainment critic but I love Broadway productions, especially musicals, dance, all kinds of music so, I'm pretty open minded.

I think it worthwhile, amid the apparent distaste for much of what Celebrity has been doing lately with their entertainment, to know how all of this entertainment comes to be. Celebrity used to be paired with RCL's Production Company until March of 2015. At this time Celebrity, while not really splitting off from RCL Productions, moved into a new studio in Miami and set up a separate production staff as well has hiring a separate management team that does both the hiring for and production of the shows. There is also an Entertainment manager and staff who are responsible for interviewing and hiring the individual guest performers at the HQ level. The Cruise directors have considerable input on this facet of Celebrity Entertainment Operations but are not directly involved in who gets hired and where that person might be placed.

In my view, the productions shows with regard to the talent level, costuming and the shows themselves have demonstrated significant improvement. Some of the new shows are quirky like Elyria but from an acting, dancing, singing and production standpoint they are leading edge. Like most things, it is a matter of taste so, there are those who like the changes and those that don't. Talent level is superb and given the opportunity (most performers will tell you right place, right time and who you know) are good enough to perform on Broadway. They are that good and the competition for parts is tough.

I've provided two links below. One of the links will take you directly to the who's who at the corporate level involved in Production Shows and Entertainment management. At the operational level there are positions on board ship, beyond that of the cruise director, who reports to the Captain not the HQ entertainment Management team. These entertainment category managers unlike the Cruise Director, report directly to members of the HQ Entertainment and Production staff.

The second link takes you to a recruiting page for singers and dancers and describes some of the shows Celebrity is featuring right now on its ships.

What my comments pertain to is that there is a ton of money being poured into these production shows including the several smaller shows done by the production cast in various venues throughout the ship. No cuts here that I am aware of. I suppose the case can be made, based on what some are experiencing with regard to the Cabaret Level performers (string quartets, solo singers and guitarists, etc.) that there are some reductions in funds for smaller scale entertainment to help off-set what is being spent on the production shows. But we can't know this for sure and I'm troubled by posters who assert there are cuts. The only thing I've noticed that isn't ubiquitous any longer are the A cappella groups. All our recent cruises in the last 12 months (5 of them) have had, among others, a string quartet group, a jazz soloist, a pop band, a solo folk singer, a solo pop guitarist, all performing in the smaller venues. They are easy to miss as they usually only perform for 30m to an hour and sometimes at odd hours. You're more likely to stumble upon them than find or recognize these groups on the Daily.

Anyway, I think building two entertainment groups within RCL, one dedicated to Celebrity alone, is going through some growing pains and that might explain some of the issues raised in this thread. I think over time, things will improve.

http://celebritycruisesproductions.com/who-we-are.html

http://www.celebritycruisesproductions.com/

Perks for onboard bookings generally conform to what corporate is offering for any particular cruise to anyone who is booking from a US location.

However, your on-board cruise specialist might have additional perks authorized for your cruise in June. It's been my experience that these may be in addition to the standard credit you will receive to be used on your current cruise or a future cruise.

For example, aboard Millennium in January of this year we booked three future cruises one each (2016, 2017 and 2018) in OV cabins. We received two perks included in the GBB program (OBC and Gratuities), instead of the standard one perk for this cabin class on two of the three. The exception was the Solstice repositioning cruise from Sydney to Honolulu in 2018. No perks there. I know these were only offered on the ship as checking other web sites I use to search cruises, these particular bookings only offered one perk for an OV booking.

I also think this varies so, it would be hard to determine exactly what you might find being offered on board your cruise in June. When I inquired about this of the cruise specialist we made these future on-board bookings with he noted corporate sends out bulletins almost on a daily basis with new offers and pricing, the purpose I would suspect, of incentivizing the purchase of select future cruises using on-board booking services.

At the two ends of the buying spectrum (way in advance and short notice) I've found that there are good reasons to book on-board or ashore in these two windows to optimize your value, the obvious advantage of booking on- board being the immediate credit incentive. Toward the end of that January cruise word started circulating that cabins on the Constellation TA in April (now just inside the final payment date) were practically being given away. On checking, that rumor turned out to be accurate - maybe the lowest fare for comparable East Bound TAs I had seen. Previous commitments prevented the booking. That pricing was gone within a week.

Good hunting.

.......... my TA told me that a lot of her customers switching from Celebrity to Cunard.

I have also heard this along with Oceania. First post to raise Cunard comparisons. We've heard a little bit about Celebrity v. Oceania, HAL, Carnival, less about NCL.

We'll do a Cunard TA at some point and am looking forward to giving it a try. Their motto is, "Advancing Civilization since 1840." Huge ocean going tradition with the goal of preserving it. Would like to hear some comparisons regarding the Cunard "experience" as we have discussed it here from those that have sailed this line.

I have no experience with Cunard, owned by Carnival, HQ in UK, targeted at a more affluent cruiser, so am reluctant to comment but I have heard these things: Much more formal with no intent to change/adapt to the mainstream market. Cunard is happy with who they are. A definite division of cruising classes, not entirely like Cunard's famous ships before 1934 and the Golden Age of cruising, but nonetheless present and palpable.

On checking, I've found this pricing under these criteria, Region: TA, Time: April, 2017 to June 2017, Length 14n, Cabin: Balcony.

HAL: $114 per person/d (no perks)

CEL: $114 per person/d (no perks)

CUN: $229 w/perks per person/d ($300 OBC - $21/d, grats @ $11.50/d)

OCE: $150 w/perks per person/d ($1000 OBC - $71/d)

Note that Cunard's suite life approach (two levels Queens and Princess Grill) are not in this pricing. These are comparable Balcony accommodations to try and keep this an apples to apples comparison.

I also used comparable OBCs for CUN and OCE although free beverage packages were offered on both lines. OCE bundles their web site pricing with R/T air - this pricing does not include that. As well, Cunard's TAs are really not that. Their crossings are regularly scheduled and not discounted as heavily as HAL and CEL do and it appears OCE does as well.

Fun reading ...... without the finger pointing/bickering, of course.

On reports by ship's crew (Room Attendants, Wait Staff, Bar Staff, even Managers - Restaurant, Bar or Hotel) : It is not likely you are going to get a detailed answer to questions like the ones reportedly posed in this thread.

There are reasons for that: (1) Managers are trained to spin. We've seen it over and over again ourselves and from reports from other's we cruise regularly with. It's not a bad thing, it is part of what they do to protect the brand. (2) The worker-bees are NEVER (that may be too strong a word because I suspect there are exceptions) going to say anything derogatory about their work experience, the line or their fellow workers. If word gets back to section managers that they did, they can lose their jobs.

I believe it's hard to get a true picture of what is a causal factor for something a particular passenger is unhappy with whatever that might be. In corporate's effort to protect the brand, I suspect that crew at all levels have guidelines when responding to passengers about a specific complaint ..... what to say, how it is going to be handled, etc. These kinds of practices are common place where the company is big enough to want to protect itself against bad press, bad reviews on social media or on internet forums. All of these are powerful voices today and it is hard to combat negative comments so, companies try to do this up front and when a complaint is first voiced.

I can't comment on specifics but I am personally aware of a passenger who complained about a serious breach of health standards to a staff who initially, it appeared, tried to conceal/downplay it, the passenger protected the evidence, raised it to the next level and was handsomely compensated and in the process signed a non-disclosure agreement. Also in this case, the passenger was informed, in general, about what steps were to be taken to correct the deficiency they complained about. It happens and I am not at all surprised about the arrangements Celebrity made. It is protecting the brand and I don't have a problem with that. It is what it is.

To that end, we have never lodged an onboard or post cruise complaint with Celebrity management where we felt they might be able or willing to do something about it. There is a reason for that. If you are unhappy with something, find the person who made you unhappy BEFORE talking to a supervisor, and give them an opportunity to correct the behavior that resulted in your unhappiness. Choose wisely. There is a difference between complaining, on the spot, about normal wear and tear on furniture or carpets and a cold meal or dirty bathroom on occupying your stateroom.

Moreover, there are ways to do this kind of thing correctly. Displaying anger or demeaning that person are not among them. Although I've only done this rarely, I've never had a situation where I felt the problem was not addressed or fixed at the lowest level. In fact, most Celebrity staff that are involved in directly serving you (e.g., table staff, bar staff, room attendants) will go out of their way to let you know if you have a problem please tell them about it and they will do their best to fix it.

My own view, after completing dozens of them, is that post cruise surveys serve one useful purpose - recognizing outstanding service and staff. You'll get nowhere with seeking redress of a significant problem you encountered in one of these. There are ways to do that and, if the problem is serious enough, like the one I mentioned above, supervisors/managers should be advise of it on the spot. I can almost guarantee you that it will be handled to your satisfaction (see above example).

I agree with OP's sentiments . Perhaps less would disagree with the points made if the title was "Celebrity Moving to Join the Pack ?" . I don't believe Celebrity is moving down market , but how different is a Celebrity cruise then with the other mass market cruise lines ?

 

I love the cruise experience but do believe that with cutbacks in entertainment staff and food , substitution of paid activities from included ones and other changes , Celebrity is no better then the others . (And yes all lines have made cuts)

 

What drew us to our first X cruise was the more restrictive smoking policy and the promise of a more up-market cruise . As the others have changed their smoking policy , another Celebrity advantage has disappeared .

 

I love Celebrity as I love all my cruise options . They are certainly to be considered when choosing my next cruise choice . With the perks they usually include , they offer good value . The issue is originally I believed they offered something different then " good value" . I believed they offered a superior higher quality experience . Not now .

I can agree that Celebrity has changed ("joined the pack" is not a bad description for your purposes) but, I think you are implying that Celebrity is no longer offering "something different." Let's assume you mean a different experience (e.g., all cruise lines and even ships within a cruise line can provide a certain experience).

OK, having said that, what is the Celebrity experience? The Carnival Experience? The NCL Experience and so forth. This one is tough because every cruiser's experience is probably going to be somewhat different... a matter or personal preferences and perceptions. However, I think there are identifiable characteristics that each cruise line markets. e.g., Carnival = Fun Ships, NCL = do anything, any time (first cruise line to offer anytime dining and others followed), HAL = sedate (I've never cruised HAL; this might be a euphemism), MSC = I really don't think they've differentiated themselves in my mind, nothing unique, Disney = Disney (if you know what I mean), Oceania = Refined Culinary standards and elegance.

What about Celebrity. Some history: Celebrity, in the beginning with Chandris and in the early 90s when Chandris sold Celebrity to RCL, the symbol, =X=, meant excellence and it was marketed as something up-scale and different. Our first cruise experience on Century in 2001 was definitely that and until sometime after the introduction of the Solstice class ships, our first experience on Century was consistently repeated.

I would agree that since then it has become more homogenous and not as easy to differentiate from other lines. I also think that management has, nevertheless, done a good job of offering value and still maintain an ambience of excellence albeit not at quite the same level. I get what the OP and others have said. Lutoff-Perlo has ginned up some interesting "New Coke" type endeavors aimed at "more affluent cruisers" (yes, that is in their marketing spiel). I don't think it is a re-branding type of thing; it is definitely targeting a higher spending cruiser. Successful? You can argue either way. So, there are tradeoffs.

Given this, I have to ask would you rather pay more to Celebrity to get higher quality food, bigger pours at the bar, less ice in your drinks, more staff/better service and more activities that didn't involve selling you something or would you rather have a lower price? If you say, "I'd pay more," for a complete change, try Oceania or you can play into Lutoff-Perlo's strategy and upgrade to what Celebrity is selling although at a higher price point. If not, you'll probably stick with Celebrity assuming you've liked your Celebrity experience and baring that option, you can, and probably should, look around. We have and keep coming back to Celebrity for reasons that involve both perceived value and the Celebrity experience itself. IOW, you have choices. A lot of them. I guess it feels like home to us and a certain bias certainly pertains. But I don't think I am alone among Celebrity loyalists who both look for value and then when they find it keep coming back.

I tried to verify you numbers but couldn't I couldn't find any 7 day Med cruises in June 2017 for HAL or Celebrity and the NCL I found was about $155 per day.

The pricing came from a well known, on-line consolidator that has a search engine that allows one to customize the search to cone results down to specific region, period of time, length of cruise and cruise lines, among others. If you can imagine what this site is here are the custom criteria:

Period: June 2017 to June 2017

Length: 7d

Region: Med

Cruise Lines: HAL, NCL, CEL

Once you've completed your search the page allows you to select a cabin category and it will then calculate a base fare price per day/person by clicking an icon in the upper right hand corner of the page. You then calculate the value of perks the line is offering for that itinerary to get a price per day/person cost (if you click on a specific cruise whatever perks are being offered will be displayed for that cruise).

Whether you book with this consolidator (I have in the past) or not, it is a great web site to quickly look at pricing and assess the density of the cruises being offered during a selected time period/itinerary.