sherri3802

Often cruise companies come in for flack and people assume they are not vigilant enough, yet when they do act they cop a serve as well.

In some ways I hope this case gets some publicity but in the ship's favour, with explanations as to why it is a big deal.

I'm not impressed by the daughter and her tantrums. granted, it would be stressful, but she reminds me a lot of kids in school (and some of their parents), they expect second, third and fourth chances for everything.

The fact she is pregnant or her father has health issues is irrelevant.

She said he accidentally flicked the cigarette overboard. It was no accident.

There are a couple of things I think probably could improve.

-At muster, they certainly do mention the dangers of throwing anything overboard. I think they need to spell things out even more clearly, as in-listing some of the sorts of things that can see a person taken off the ship. I know it is not the greeting ships want to give, but maybe at the end of the talk they need to really make it clear.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who go on cruises who assume if they break the rules they will just get a caution, a few minutes of unpleasantness but no worries.

-When someone is put off, they do need to make sure the person has some way to get home, even make the arrangements with the person before they leave. If a person says they wish to make their own arrangements, perhaps sign a paper to that effect.

Been to NZ twice.

Once on a 20 day holiday (17 days of it a coach tour to cover both islands).

Second time was a cruise.

As far as actually seeing the country went, the coach tour won hands down.

I think 2 weeks would be okay to see both islands, but you would have to choose carefully. You can never hope to see everything, even if you spend a month or two there.

When it comes to working out what you might see in a day, could I suggest you go online, look at some coach tour itineraries in detail. You'll find they normally allow for stops & don't go too fast. If you read reviews as well, they will tell you if any sections were too rushed. I'm not suggesting you actually go on one of the tours, just use the information for planning your own motoring holiday.

Don't plan on going any faster than the coach tour though. Maybe even a touch slower.

But have a look at a few, pick one that tours the things you would most like to see and use that as a rough starting guide.

We went on a cruise there last year.

The wrecks-you could walk, they are a fair way along the beach though.

Shops-some right near where the ship docks.

Excursions. I saw some advertised independently on the web but when I tried to book online, they said not on a cruise day as they were booked by the cruise company. So my suspicion is if you want to do something, you'll need to go on an official shore excursion.

We did two-one was a tour all over the island, the other was segways along the sand.

The long tour cost a lot and got a bit boring but we loved the segways.

We were on a cruise on Dawn Princess last year & our experience was that doors were not shut but waiters did become stressed at delays.

We were booked into first dinner sitting and it was the first night of the cruise. We were there on time. Our travel companions had a cabin on a different floor but had arranged to meet us in the dining room as tables had already been allocated.

The husband is disabled though, on a scooter, and so the couple had to wait for lifts. If you've ever been on Princess ships, you'll know what a trial that can be, especially as all the able bodied rush to any lifts that arrive. It can take him 10-25 minutes to catch a lift as he has to wait till an empty one opens right next to him.

Anyway, our companions were delayed and we thought that must be the reason. After 15 minutes, our waiter was keen for us to go ahead and order but we didn't as it seemed rude. The waiter was pretty frantic at the 30 minute mark and we didn't know what to do, but then another waiter came over to tell us our friends had been put on another table by accident.

It turns out we were at the correct table & our friends were right on the other side at a large table for 10, where obviously half the diners had not arrived. They had started their meal as the waiter there had said they could not afford to wait as there was another sitting.

Of course we had not eaten. We were allowed to move to their table and order but the courses came out bang, bang, bang.:p Never been served so quickly in my life. My husband loved it.

We were told sternly that we were being allowed to eat there that night but would all have to sit at the correct table in the future, which I thought was a bit ironic as they were the ones who made the mistake in the first place.

So I guess our experience was that staff will wait for about 15 minutes for all diners to arrive but after that, really prefer those present to just go ahead and order. I can understand why.

We usually cruise Princess (platinum level) and decided to try a P and O cruise on the Pacific Dawn as the timing suited us workwise and we could also just drive to the port for a change. Have to say I wasn't very impressed with a number of things - variety and quality of food in the buffet, entertainment and general service levels e.g. in the theatre waitstaff were walking about not making eye contact and you just about had to wave them down to order a drink. In the evening if we were in our cabin, the steward didn't even ask if we wanted our room serviced - he just handed us the next day's Pacific Daily. You have to pay for a lot of extra things like chips, burgers, pizza, high tea, icecream. Bookings for the MDR opened at 5.30 pm the night before and if you were busy and didn't get around to it for a couple of hours, the only time slots left were after 8 pm. On formal night in the MDR, dress standards were not enforced and people were wearing sundresses, jeans & polo tops, shorts etc. I understand not everyone wants to dress up but if they don't want to on formal night, go to the buffet. No blankets provided for movies on the big screen and people were covering themselves with pool towels instead. It's not even as if P and O is that cheap - have paid less per night on most of my Princess cruises. In P and O's favour I did like the spaciousness and storage in the cabins, and my husband commented that the free coffee on the Pacific Dawn was much better than that on Princess and Royal Caribbean. Next cruise will be on another line - most likely Princess again.

I agree with everything you have said.

Earlier this year we went on 2 cruises almost back to back. One was on Pacific Jewel, the next was Dawn Princess.

Chalk and cheese.

The buffet in P&O is always a bit of a letdown as it isn't even open quite a bit of the time.

But the choice of tea and coffee-heaps better than on the Princess line. It is only coming out of a press button machine so princess could easily get a few.

Hey, datone, be glad you got a dinner sitting of 8pm.

We were 2 couples who made our bookings straight off and got the 6pm slot.

We were on a 4 day cruise & the first 2 nights we waited 90 minutes just to get the entrée. That's right, in 90 minutes we had not even got to the main. Other people from the later sitting were in and eating well before we got to our dessert. I don't know if it would have improved as we didn't go the next 2 nights, my husband refused, he hates waiting for too long.

Next cruise on Princess, the formal dining room did 3-4 courses in 60-90 mins, they were excellent and better quality too.

I might go on P&O again if the price & destination was right but our friends won't & I'd rather try something different too, have to admit.

Hello everyone

 

My husband and I are from the Gold Coast in Australia and starting to do a little research - well in advance of our Sept/Oct cruising plans in 2016 for possibly an Australian trip or South Pacific Islands...really open to suggestions at this stage.

 

I'd like to get some feedback to see which of the Ocean liners would be suitable for us as we are in our 50's and even though we know that we won't completely avoid kids/teenagers altogether, it would be nice to take a cruise where it's less likely that too many kids would be aboard or if there are kid free swimming pools etc.

 

We have both been on P&O in our past - the Pacific Dawn was nice, but my husband heard that Carnival has less of the "riff-raff".

 

We'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on these.

 

Thank you

I have a friend who swears by the Arcadia, which is a British P&O ship and nothing like P&O here. The Arcadia only takes people 18 and over, it is a step up from Princess in terms of quality and dining (according to my friend) and you can often buy a sector of one of the world trips.

My friend does this. They sometimes join the cruise in Melbourne and have travelled to England that way and I think the next time they go on a cruise will be on the other British P&O ship, Aurora & they will be off to Sth America via NZ and some of the pacific Islands this March.

They always seem to get a good price on the sectors.

If you are open to times/itineraries, then it may be worth your while having a look at the Arcadia and seeing if there are any sectors that appeal to you. There are quite a few that you can join in Brisbane. I am not sure the trips for Sept/Oct 2016 have been published yet but if you look at the March timetable you will get an idea of typical prices etc

Would like to understand what exactly is better on the princess, ? Genuine question am curious have travelled twice on P&O not yet on Princess , it seems popular opinion that the entertainment is better on P&o . What is better on Princess? The food ? The cabins? What makes it better?

I have only been on a couple of cruises (Sun Princess and Pacific Dawn)

Princess line was more impressive, overall.

*First impressions/atrium/ship ambience in public spaces. Much more of the wow factor on Princess.

* Princess ship was bigger, which probably contributed a bit to that wow factor

*Buffet on Princess was open pretty much around the clock and had huge picture windows with a great view. In contrast, the P&O buffet was pretty well closed except at meal times and although you could still go in for a coffee, it didn't have the same atmosphere, it had one section that got very hot and had heavy curtains or some such thing over the windows. Princess wins out for buffet.

*Cabins. We had inside for both. Layout of the P&O was better and a bit bigger, the bed was more comfortable. So I would say P&O won out for cabins as far as size went but not for presentation.The P&O cabin we had was a bit tatty in parts, laminate peeling, an overall older feel, heavy looking wood drawers. This is not to say they weren't any good but first impression was that the cabins needed refurbishment. Princess toiletries were little bottles, similar to what you might get in a motel. The P&O shampoo etc was just in a big bottle attached to the shower wall. I liked the Princess ones better.

*Dining experience was good in both, perhaps a fraction more impressive in Princess, where they wiped crumbs away after each course and there seemed more variety. From memory we also got tea/coffee on princess at the end of our meal, whereas not with P&O, where we had to go to the featureless buffet that had a cold feel as it was pretty much closed for business. (we're talking about 9pm-10pm)

* On Princess, there was a free pizza dining section & also free hamburgers and such out near the pools. There was free icecream in the buffet in the afternoons, there was a high tea on in the afternoons with the waiters in gloves etc. None of that on P&O.

* Entertainment. Better variety on P&O.

* Ship layout. On our Princess ship, we could walk right round the ship on the outside beck part on level 7 I think it was. On P&O, no such luck, the 2 sides were not connected.

My experiences were only on those 2 specific ships and maybe they have changed but overall, it felt like a better experience on the Princess line and I think a lot of it had to do with overall size, condition of the ship and much better buffet experience.

Those auction sales have been running for a while, whereas the special price only just changed. I imagine the bidders haven't checked the regular price since the beginning so hadn't realised the change (rather than just bidding up to begin with).

 

Many people only check once, as the question then becomes how often do you check...

Yes, I wondered if that could be the case. I had received a special email just the day before to alert me to the 'red hot special', which is why I looked.

I presume the price before that had been quite a bit dearer.

Wouldn't you be livid if you had been bidding away, only to find a few days later that the price had dropped dramatically and under your bid price!

It sounds as if the special did not last long in any case.

As for the person who won a 3 day cruise auction then had $100 OBC given to them-what excellent news!! That is great! So exciting when something like that happens to you.

I had a look at the auction site a few minutes ago and could not believe my eyes.

I won't mention names or anything but one of the current auctions has a bid of over $1351 for an inside cabin for 2 people on a cruise leaving 17 Jan.

It doesn't specific which category of interior cabin so I presume it is just a guarantee cabin.

The exact same company that runs the auction site also sells cruises online in the normal way and you can buy an interior cabin for 2 at $599 pp or a guarantee window cabin for $673 on this same cruise. Available right now, same time as the auction is in progress.

Extremely cheap price, mind you. But it pays people to check before bidding up the auctions too much.

I guess you could have a day trip to Melbourne from there.

 

 

Seems odd itineraries, Sydney to Mornington and back 4 day cruise.

To me, too. At first. I thought-Mornington? Why there?

But I am warming to it.

I think decentralising has a lot going for it.

Probably the docks in Melbourne are chockers and booked out a long way in advance and who is to say going to Mornington could not prove to be just as exciting.

Mornington is a quiet sort of area but quite pretty and there is no reason why a tourist industry could not expand there to meet the demand, especially if ships started to stop there regularly.

Mornington has a few historical homes and gardens, art, historic buildings such as Victoria's oldest courthouse, a steam train, panoramic views and an interesting little township.

I don't have any idea what ship tours have been organised but if I were in charge, I would have been negotiating with the people who run some of those places.

And my guess is extra cafes and markets might spring up to cater for the trade once it gets going.

I would hope that people who choose this type of cruise wouldn't see it as a necessity to then travel into Melbourne. It could be done, but my guess is a lot of people on the cruise may already have been there before.

So it could be a real boon to this region of Victoria.

Maybe there need to be more of these sorts of cruises, to various regional places in Australia.

I am going on a 4 day cruise soon to Moreton Island. There's not much there really, it is just a sand island, but the resort seems to have a lot of organised activities and I am looking forward to the break. Quite excited really. I am not upset we aren't going to Brisbane as I was there not that long ago, but there is no reason Sydney cruises couldn't do Brisbane and Moreton Island on some itineraries.

Just speaking for myself here, but sometimes when I look at cruises, I am not necessarily after a long, expensive one. But often the only things around seem to be to the Sth Pacific, or to far north Qld or NZ. I've already done the first 2 and am doing NZ in Feb, so when I saw something different-to Moreton Island-it was quite refreshing.

I hope people get to see Mornington in the same way eventually.

If you are thinking of a schoolies trip, I don't think the ship lines will take you then, not unless there is someone over 21 with you.

I am paying the same fare for a 12 month old in my cabin as i am for myself.

Even the tips are the same.

If you can, deduct the tips when you are on board. I would. I can't see that staff could be doing anything for a 12 month old baby.

GOLDEN PRINCESS is the way to go, don't even consider P & O Australia .

Golden has two South Pacific departures round trip ex Melbourne, one in October, 2015 and one in March 2016 .

 

If the Princess people who plan the itineraries in Miami had any idea they would schedule back to back round trip South Pacific itineraries ex Melbourne from late May to early August each year . It is freezing in Melbourne, Tasmania, and Adelaide in those months whilst that is the best time to visit the South Pacific.

 

But the brains trust in Miami still keep scheduling cruises to the South Pacific from Australia in the Southern summer which is stinking hot and humid in the Pacific, and cyclones in Northern Australia .

:) I have sometimes wondered exactly the same thing.

Cruises out of Sydney are a dime a dozen all year round, but we are a bit limited here in Melbourne-or have been in the past.

Now I wouldn't say it is always freezing here in May-August. We do have the odd nice day.:D

But it would definitely be a tempting time to leave on a cruise to the sth Pacific.

I am also a bit surprised that cruise lines don't get out their sheets of term dates (which are readily available online, years in advance) and try to work in with them in some way so there is always a cruise starting/finishing in the term break.

I realise some of the private schools may not have exactly the same dates but there is enough overlap that you would be able to cater pretty well for most families.

I'm also from Melbourne and our first cruise a few years back was to the Sth Pacific, leaving Melbourne in January on the Sun Princess.

One of my workmates was also, by coincidence, on the same cruise with her two young sons.

There were over 400 children on board.

Leaving from Melbourne was great. No hassles with worrying about flights or the weight of suitcases and it didn't take long to get on board.

The princess line was better than a P&O ship we went on a year or so later, as far as the buffet went, because the buffet was open around the clock whereas on P&O it closed between meals.

There were also free hamburgers and such near the pool area plus a free pizza place. If you have children, that would be a bonus. The dining room was open for meals at breakfast and lunch also and was not crowded then.

My husband bought a coffee drinks package and from memory, I think there may be a soft drink package available but not sure.

I have to admit, it was quite hot at our Sth pacific destinations and a cyclone had gone through Fiji but did not affect the places we went.

If you have school age children, the summer holidays might suit you as you have more choice of cruises. It's why we chose January, because I used to teach and I found the term breaks didn't always coincide well with when cruises were leaving & returning, so I was a bit restricted. In jan you will be able to choose some of the longer 10 or 12 day cruises too.

I'd go in January if I were you-sunny weather, lots of other children on board, and if I could, I would leave from Melbourne.

Oh and I meant to add, in one of the other couples we travelled with, the wife had to have a gluten free diet and they catered exceptionally well for her. No trouble at all. In fact each night they would bring her the menu for the next evening and ask her what she wanted, and prepare it specially, gluten free.

That's exactly right, Frog! You will be away on holiday and not having to cook.

:D That makes for an excellent start to any holiday.

I've been on a cruise where almost quarter of the passengers were children (it was in the summer holidays). I didn't find it an issue at all. They did tend to fill the swimming pool but that is to be expected, they've got to do something to enjoy themselves. In fact I found that a lot of the time, I barely noticed them on the ship. I suppose it helped that I was a teacher so I am used to having children around, they don't worry me at all.

I had to laugh at the bit where you mentioned someone gave a bad review comment because of rough weather.:p That's a bit harsh. It reminds me of ebay where some sellers on the forum there have mentioned buyers gave them a negative rating after buying a DVD-because they didn't like the way the movie ended!!!:eek:

There are nought so strange as folks, as they say.

I've not been on this ship but talking of reviews overall, I do enjoy reading them and I think most people can sift through any complaints and see if the points brought up are of interest or relevant to your own needs.

I do think experiences can differ, even on the same cruise. On our first cruise (with Sun Princess) we had the most marvellous dining room experience each night, with such helpful staff, with a sense of humour. But on talking to another passenger who was in the other dining room, she mentioned how their waiter was really spoiling the trip for her as he was rude and the service was bad.

We were both on the same cruise, same ship, both making perfectly reasonable comments, just dealing with different staff.

I live in Melbourne and did a coach tour of NZ, so have been to all those places, though I haven't done every tour listed.

Can give a quick summary of some.

Tauranga-Rotorua.

My advice would be do an excursion that will show you some of the mudpools and geysers as these are not everyday things in most other places.

* Te Puia & agrodome. We did these. The agrodome is just a show about sheep. But it did have a very amusing host, which made the excursion worthwhile.

Te Puia was really good. I think if you are going to NZ it is a must to see some of the area around Rotorua. This is one of the parks where you see that geo thermal activity. We really enjoyed our walk around and also the cultural displays.

* We are heading back to NZ early next year and will be visiting the Waiotapu valley & Rainbow Springs this time around. I think it also gets to showcase some of the thermal activity of the region.

* My son stayed at Hobbiton as his girlfriend is a real fan of the movie and the tour was a highlight for her and interesting for him too. They loved the scenery there. A sister in law who went on this tour though wasn't all that keen, said there was a lot of steep walking. For myself, I would love to see it but if it came down to a choice between seeing thermal areas or Hobbiton, I would choose the thermal areas.

-----------------------------

Akaroa/Christchurch

Christchurch was the most beautiful place when we went (a couple of weeks before the last big quake) but I don't know that it is back to what it once was. My son was in Akaroa a year ago and says it is a beautiful town though not big. Easy to walk around. Scenery from out of town, from the hilltops is worth seeing though.

When we were in the region we went on the Tranz Alpine train from Arthur's Pass. It was really good and I am glad I have done it, but I didn't find the scenery any more spectacular than a lot I had already seen from the coach (we did 20 days of touring).

This time around, I have read about a private tour company that has a cabin on the wharf and you can book half day tours for $40pp, where you are driven around Akaroa, into the mountains, to the cheese factory etc so may do that.

But if you have not seen much of NZ or the scenery, then the train may be for you. It's costly but you'll get to see a lot in a smallish time frame.

*Dunedin

We went to Lanarch castle. The drive up there is steep and windy, thank goodness we had a competent bus driver.

It isn't really a castle as such, just a grand old home with an interesting history.

The railways station in town is an interesting building too, if you get a chance to go look.

* Melbourne.

Some of the things are a fair way out of town. I live near the Dandenong ranges & Puffing Billy. Kids would like it. There are no windows in some of the coaches, just horizontal bars and kids tend to sit there with their feet dangling out. The Dandenong ranges are beautiful-lots of ferns etc and I guess you would get a long drive out through the suburbs.

River Cruise, Healesville Sanctuary & Wine Tasting

The tour that includes the sanctuary and wine tasting and river cruise might be better though. I am assuming the river cruise is down the Yarra and you would get to see some of Melbourne city itself. The river cruises from here are right in the heart of town. That would be great as there are some lovely parts. Then you no doubt get onto the bus to the Yarra ranges. The sanctuary is good, especially if you fancy seeing Australian animals as that is all they have there, it is not like a zoo with a bit of everything. Don't miss the birds of prey exhibition which is on about 12.30pm, from memory. The birds swoop right over you and it is really interesting hearing about them.

If you are doing the river cruise, plus the sanctuary plus wine tasting though, you won't have more than a couple of hours there, so choose your animals. The paths follow an almost circular track, with sideshoots, so mark the ones you most want to see.

Healesville is in the middle of the wine growing area so the winery you go to will be near there. Not sure which it will be. I've been to the Domaine Chandon a few times and that has spectacular views, if it is there. You can even wander out and pick a few grapes if they are in season. (not sure you are meant to, mind you).

yes, I think if I were in Melb and wanted to see animals and some of the countryside as well as the city, that is the tour I would choose.

*I have been to Sovereign Hill a few times. It is okay but it is not a real town, it is more along the lines of an amusement park without the rides. It showcases some of the gold rush history. It is good but probably would not be my first choice, not if you are only in Melb for a day.

What a great review, with all the photos.

I have been to most of the places mentioned but enjoyed seeing them through the eyes of a tourist.

I guess what most impressed me was the adventurous spirit of you all, especially the mum at 80. Hiring a car, taking off and even doing a hook turn in Melbourne city. Hats off to you, don't know that I would be so brave in a foreign country.

I don't mind P&O although I found trying to book a table in the Dining Room on the Pacific Dawn a pain. I cruise in inside cabins now and I think the Inside cabins on P&O are the best I have experienced.

Regards Elaine.

It's been years since I was on a cruise, so my observations aren't current, but I thought exactly the same about P&O when we went on pacific Dawn in 2010, that the cabin layout was a lot better than the inside cabin we had had the year before on Sun Princess. The finish of it wasn't, mind you. The laminate etc was peeling and overall effect a bit tatty but the bed was much more comfortable and just a better design all round.

Booking a table may have changed but I recall, back then, following a tip I had read in here.:D

Someone suggested that as soon as we boarded, we should ring the dining room and reserve a table and even though it said anytime dining, pick either the early or later sitting.

So I did. there were six of us and as soon as we got on board, I was on the phone, asking for a window table if at all possible.

We got a great location and booked it again. After that, as soon as we arrived at the dining room each night, we would reserve the same spot for the next night, before we even went in.

Worked for us.:)

As I say, things may have changed since then though.

Just wondering, are there any regular cruisers here who are able to compare Dawn Princess and Rhapsody of the seas.

I have a sister in law who has been on Rhapsody a few years back and we are all off on Dawn Princess in a couple of months. I have been on Sun Princess but never a Royal Caribbean ship.

A friend told my sister in law that The Rhapsody beats the Princess line hands down for quality of the ship, food and entertainment.

Is that how most other people have found it?

Better still, you can view completed auctions if you look up advanced search.

From what I can make out, most of the Moreton island cruises seem to have sold from mid 500s upwards, with one auction ending at just over $700.

Anything in the 500s-600s is a good price for someone, but once it hits the 700s, it isn't greatly under what the oceanview rooms were listed as a couple of days ago. If people aren't careful, there might come a stage where some bids go over the previous asking price.

Still, most of them are excellent deals for people who are able to take off at short notice.

I suppose it is good if you just want one room but if you normally travel with another couple it makes it harder.

Thanks for this. I understand now a guarantee oceanview for two with no name changes.

Does not include items of a personal nature. Does this include soap?:confused:

I will have to watch the auctions today at the finish time to get some idea what the cabins are going for just for interest sake. You never know if they will do this again.

 

Karryl

From what I can gather, they seem to be setting it up as a permanent feature.

It says this:

The site will feature the major local cruise brands like P&O Australia, Royal Caribbean, Carnival Cruise Lines, Celebrity Cruises and Princess Cruises. In the coming months we will also have international cruises and even European River cruises. All bidding starts at $1.

But I can't seem to get to the auction site from the normal home site for the company, if that makes sense. I can't find any mention of the auction site or any links there, which is odd.

I got that email too.

And could not believe my eyes because the Moreton Island cruise is one I had actually been watching for prices.

Not only watching, but taking screenshots.:)

I was puzzled when I went on the site and did not see that particular cruise listed at all yesterday, because it had had quite a few categories available the day before.

But then when I saw the email and followed the link, I realised they must have pulled it off the listings and put the remaining cabins up for auction.

But hey, I must be one of the few people around who knows the exact price each cabin was before the auction.:D

From what I can make out, the auction is for a guarantee room in an outside cabin and it is for 2 people.

Some of the auctions finished last night, or were close to finishing when I logged off the computer. But what I am noticing now is I can't find the finished auctions listed anywhere. They were over $450 when I logged off but I don't know what the end result was.

That would still be a bargain as the list prices were about $365pp upwards, from memory.

Seeing the finished auction results would be useful though.

I am not actually going on this cruise, have booked the same cruise for Feb 11th. But I was curious to see how cruise sales work out and what happens to prices, which is why I was following this particular cruise.

A shocking thing to happen, and nothing to do with the safety or maintenance of the actual plane or the ability of its pilots.

BUT, I was reading that the route it flew over was one that several airlines abandoned a couple of months back as a bit risky.

It surprises me that Malaysian airlines still took it, but then again they weren't the only airline doing it, and perhaps they have been hard hit financially by the first tragedy, so needed to go the shortest legal routes.

I would say it will be a wake up call to all airlines though to review their flight paths everywhere.

On TV. I heard a transcript of a taped conversation. It seems plain that whoever hit it did not deliberately target a civilian plane, but at the same time, those in charge didn't care, they basically said tough luck, they shouldn't be in our area.