hazence

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article#tnF2

Face Masks

Figure 2. Meta-analysis of risk ratios for the effect of face mask use with or without enhanced hand hygiene on laboratory-confirmed influenza from 10 randomized controlled trials with >6,500 participants. A) Face mask...

In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2).

One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33).

Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9,10). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies (9,10).

Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only (34), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only (35), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts (11–13,15,17). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group (11–13,15,17,34,35)

. Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36).

There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

1 minute ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

You font is unreadable on my iPhone. Was your post about your Zip Code?

No...I’m always careful to post about my zip code in fonts everyone can read. 😎 This was just a little friendly provocation to get things moving again today on the Mask thread.

2 minutes ago, KsucAts said:

 

Wasn't there one from the governor of New Jersey also?  Plus the Michigan's mayor husband wanting to break the rules to get his boat out.  And the Illinois governor's wife leaving the state.  They just go on and on. 

 

Honestly, time to just open back up, protect the nursing homes and other vulnerable, keep an eye one the hospital capacity in areas and let this virus run its course.  

If they really really believe this stuff, why aren’t they afraid not to practice it?! Back mid March when my refugee daughter came here from London ( after a week at the Armory Show in NYC) ...she has accused me of following her around, spraying her with Lysol.
 

Not quite... but my hands actually bled...wiping down everywhere...constantly...with those Healthcare Clorox wipes. She could only use her own bathroom...couldn’t come into our room...couldn’t help with anything. No fever...no symptoms..but we wouldn’t let her leave the house because we cared about our neighbors.

I believed!!!! Don’t they BELIEVE? This is why I have come to increasingly think all this is COVID-security- blanket stuff.  If you FEAR ENOUGH...you never forget.

Governor of Va taking selfie at the beach this weekend. He just mandated use of masks in public places.

21 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

As I clearly said in the post you actually quoted  they were "starting to analyze the data"

BTW, for full disclosure, March 8 was well over  2 months ago.  Things change as data is analyzed.

If masks work...why are they releasing prisoners, including some dangerous ones...instead of just providing masks?

And if NOT wearing masks is so dangerous to others, why are certain areas where mask wearing is really lax...not seeing respective surges of cases?  
 

 As you say...months have gone by. Observation itself is part of data collecting!! Explain that!

,

15 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Every week?  This is typical FBook BS. Several articles have been written about that.  PolitiFact and MediaWise among others.

How about one major restatement in over 3 months.  And the early recommendation was because of fear of hording and starting to analyze the data.

I can't believe in this day and age people either don't get the purpose of a cloth mask or simply continue to pretend to be uninformed.

CDC.  Today:

15 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Every week?  This is typical FBook BS. Several articles have been written about that.  PolitiFact and MediaWise among others.

How about one major restatement in over 3 months.  And the early recommendation was because of fear of hording and starting to analyze the data.

I can't believe in this day and age people either don't get the purpose of a cloth mask or simply continue to pretend to be uninformed.

CDC.  Today:

So Fauci et al purposely let people die and the infection spike by telling us on March 8 that masks were unnecessary? Gee, were those who died because of that lie really expendable in order to have enough masks for hospitals? 
 

“Sorry your grandma and sister died, but we couldn’t tell the truth or even suggest cloth masks back  then because we were trying to hoard the good masks.  “
 

”Oh OK.”

4 minutes ago, mayleeman said:

Actually, it isn't.  It was a study of 1 patient in a hospital setting, and the only conclusion offered was that "some" asymptomatic carriers may be weak transmitters of the virus.

 

Compare to the numerous outbreaks where no one was symptomatic. Big whoop!

Still...how do you explain it? Come on...try....

Not one case. And the problem with your “conclusion” is that we don’t know if the asympotmatic individual was the one who infected the others...or not. The asympotmatic may simply have had antibodies and so did not get sick.

And may not have enough viral load to pass on the disease.

There will be more studies.And it will explain why certain areas have been lax in these demanded practices and still have not had a responding surge.

15 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

Based on this logic I can only presume the author ignores speed limits, stop signs, and traffic lights when driving.

 

It is fact that one can have COVID-19 and not know it. It is fact that such a person can infect others. Like obeying traffic laws, following public health directives is a civic duty. Just because one doesn't agree with a particular speed limit does not make it okay to speed. Just because one doesn't agree with a mask wearing directive does not make it okay to not wear a mask. 

31 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

 

If one wants to be overly cautious there is nothing wrong with it, IMO.  Others, without masks  should also be cautious of those around them.  Respect to others, both ways is important. Sadly it seems to have gone out the window, and Covid is just another example over and above hand washing to prevent Noro.

 

What I do not like is how someone who is cautious and watchful of others gets painted with a wide brush.  Just because they aren't wearing a mask the moment they leave their home, it doesn't mean they don't care for their fellow man.

 

Masks, worn or not, seem to have become the newest form of virtue signalling in today's society. 

I wonder if the decision makers at RCCL saw the video of the gentle folk at a Staten Island grocery store accosting a non compliant unmasked shopper?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shoppers-at-staten-island-grocery-store-scream-at-woman-for-not-wearing-mask-2020-05-25/

Now in NY, there is a law requiring mask wearing...but one can only imagine if some cruiser from my State should innocently leave his cabin, unmasked...and be confronted by screaming, cursing, threatening masked mob from another State...who feel he is a threat to their lives.

If one of that mob should be transported...”beam me up,Scotty and drop me in S.C.”...he would die of fright in my Walmart or grocery store.
 

But any day now...as I have been told here for months...we are going to be COVIDly punished for it....

4 hours ago, CRUISEFAN0001 said:

WOW...all those poor doctors and nurses wearing masks all the time for decades...they’ve been exposed to unhealthy practices...

 

Who knew??? (apparently not the entire medical world)...

 

Also...don’t recall one single claim that masks prevented Covid...only reduced the potential spreading via coughing, sneezing, and other oral contagious actions...

 

So much for “science”....

 

Based on that post logic...cruising, air travel, social events with more than 2 people, etc are years away...

 

Agree to disagree.

You make an excellent point in your first paragraph...doctors and nurses have been wearing masks for decades.They are acutely aware of the value and shortcomings.This is not some new concept like coating your face with Vaseline.

So especially should the very experienced  DR Fauci have a FIRM  position on the effectiveness of masks in preventing disease.  But on March 8, when there were still many lives that could have been saved by advising us to wear any kind of cloth covering (if he believed that) ...he stated the opposite publicly.
 

The excuse now is...oh gee...he just wanted to save masks for medical workers. I’m amazed that so many of you who believe so fervently in mask wearing, just accept that as if allowing the burgeoning spread and loss of precious lives was acceptable while he stockpiled for hospitals.  If masks stop the spread, THAT was the time to SHOUT IT OUT! “For Gods sake wear anything! You save my life , I will save yours!”

AS far as the excuse that it was okay to lie that masks were not effective...because those on the front lines needed them...here is why I’m not buying that. In late February I bought Clorox healthcare wipes from Amazon. By early March...they were NO longer available for general purchase. Online there was a sentence...”restricted for hospitals” ...something like that. They just shut down the purchase...they did not declare that the wipes didn’t DO THE JOB! 

This could have easily been done with medical masks too.

I believe Fauci told the truth in early March. I don’t believe he would have facilitated all the deaths that supposedly masks prevent...if masks actually helped.

I think now...as he said this week...they need people to start resuming life...both for health reasons and economic reasons. The mask thing helps people feel they have some control...it’s kind of a COVID security blanket...and as Fauci says...”blocks some droplets.”

"There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes. 

While masks may block some droplets, Fauci said, they do not provide the level of protection people think they do.”

24 minutes ago, BND said:

Interesting findings.  I wonder if there are any more studies going on about this same topic.  

 

Im sure there must be. The ability of asymptomatic carriers to transit the disease is a very big part of the paralyzing fear. They have pretty much eliminated the fear of surface transmission...if there are no asymptomatic zombies infecting us unknowingly...then avoiding infection from SYMPTOMATIC carriers becomes must easier...and less frightening.  
 

Interesting...results of this study show asymptomatic  carriers ability to infect others may be weak.  This zombie theory may well soon go the way of the killer surfaces threat.

Conclusion: In summary, all the 455 contacts were excluded from SARS-CoV-2 infection and we conclude that the infectivity of some asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers might be weak.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32405162/?fbclid=IwAR3lpo_jjq7MRsoIXgzmjjGREL7lzW22XeRRk0NO_Y7rvVl150e4CbMo0cg

The big part of the picture is that no one MUST take that risk to cruise.  It’s a choice. It’s not like grocery shopping, visiting doctors. It’s a gamble that NO ONE is required to take. 

I wonder if the cruiselines will require legal waivers from all who board.

48 minutes ago, botbot said:

Has anyone heard about any Cruise line, especially Royal, re the controls they are looking at putting in place when they start cruising again.?

I'm a seasoned cruiser, but surely, if their plan is to control entry to the ships via the stupid questionnaire sheet of "have you had coronavirus in the last 14 days" type approach, surely this will enable the virus to spread again like wildfire on a cruise ship.

Surely they are putting plans in place to test everyone before getting on the ship, and then testing when people come back on at ports.....even to the point of testing everyone, even every day.....That way, the "cruising life" will be as normal.........

I can't find anything, I have looked and looked........they are talking about "social distancing", which we all know is impossible on a cruise ship.....is the plan to wait for the elevator for the whole cruise then.!....

Anyone with ANY REAL info.....??

This is totally unrealistic...expecting an industry or a government to devise a way to make anyone’s life...risk free. As another thread says plainly, if a person needs that level of assurance, cruising is not mandatory...stay home.

My neighbor’s car  was hit by a drunk driver on a back road at 10AM in the morning a couple months ago. . He spent weeks in the hospital.
 

I’m glad that we take drunk drivers licenses away. I m glad police can do spot breathalyzer tests. I’m glad we sometimes jail those who cause harm to others. I’m glad that organizations like MADD do their best to raise awareness and that restaurants and bars are tasked to not over-serve. We do all we can but we can never make ourselves safe from drunk drivers.
 

There  will be drunks on the road this weekend...and on any and every possible day of the week.  No government or business can assure any of us that we won’t get slammed by a drunk on the road.
 

Every time we get in the car...we face a risk.

The pictures of the people out this weekend crowding beaches and bars...they seem to see life as “normal” now...even though they live in hard hit areas. If they can afford it, they’ll be on those short cruises, partying as they are this weekend. And therein lies RCCL’s dilemma. These customers will not cruise if they have to mask up, social distance, avoid pools and casinos, and be constantly tested.

Nor can RCCL devise a plan that will placate the COVID-terrified that think it’s the business of the cruiseline to find a way to let them do EVERYTHING they did before...but with no risk from the virus! That’s Mission Impossible and lawsuits waiting to happen.

It’s one thing to say...you should wear a mask FOR ME...if it’s in a grocery store or doctors office, etc. These are essential places. But wearing a mask on a cruise ship where no one NEEDS to be...that is a whole other conversation.

This is Long Island. Ocean City, Maryland. These are beaches and boardwalks this weekend.

How much social distancing? How many masks? Will cruiselines have better luck?

1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

Sure there is a lot of stuff on the net that purports to be science. And, it seems that many insist science not evolve its thinking as new data becomes available. Neither of these should encourage peop!e to pick and choose appropriate behaviors. Just because there are those that, (in my opinion often maliciously), post misleading and confusing content does not give everyone license to pick and choose. 

 

Science does evolve and we must adjust as new data establishes new understsnding.

 

The current understanding is that asymptomatic people are infectious. 

 

During this pandemic, more so than at other times, an individual's behavior has a direct and potentially deadly effect on many others. In these circumstances individuals do not have the right to behave based only on their own risk factors. The fact that people may have no intent to harm others does not relieve them of the need to behave in a manner that does not put others at risk.

There is no law where I live that residents of SC have to wear masks, so residents absolutely “have the right” not to wear them.  
 

As for the idea that they are morally required, what enforces moral behavior...peer pressure among other things. In lightly effected states, there does not seem to be community disdain for non mask wearers...if anything, it’s a bit opposite that. Where you live, that community pressure to fall in line with this “Recommendation ” may exist because the virus is widespread. 
 

When I read “current understanding”...I’m reminded, as you say, that science evolves. In regard to masks, it has evolved and un-evolved and now, they are scientifically in vogue again.

I find it hard to believe that if masks...as a-preventive of spread...were such settled science...that Dr Fauci and the CDC...at the height of the pandemic...would not have said...
 

“PLEASE  USE anything you have as a mask. We are going to prevent sale of the masks needed for the medical community and ask you to understand why. But in the meantime, to save lives, cover up with any bandana, or scarf that you have!!!!!”

But instead, when lives were being lost daily, they said...”Nah, masks are unnnecessary.”

Were those early lives expendable so a lie that masks were unnecessary was okay?

Really?

So our scientists let the virus spread  at the beginning of the pandemic and let many people die...never advocated for any type of covering...when it’s such settled science that masks save lives????

As you say.... “The fact that ( experts) may have no intent to harm others does not relieve them of the need to behave in a manner that does not put others at risk.”

So why lie if masks really work?

If masks are mandatory, I will want to know specifically how RCCL is going to insure that this mandatory rule is enforced. They hardly have a reliable record about past rules, but those were mainly  annoyances and chair hogs and dress violators were not perceived by many to be endangering their lives. 
 

Smokers maybe...but we never shut down the economy for months because somebody lit up on a balcony...so what is RCCL to do?

Will an army of staff be stationed throughout the ship to intervene with non compilers? I can see the possibly infectious spit flying in confrontations In public places. Not good. 
 

How many people can be confined to staterooms and how many will be frogmarched off ships? How many staff must be dedicated to police and enforcement issues. Remember many parts of the country are not as mask compliant as others. Will cruisers have to sign a document swearing to have nose and mouth covered in....what places? How soon after eating, drinking? 
 

ideas?

One thing I know for sure, if masks are required, there will be people either disobeying the rule “it’s my vacation”...or pulling them down beneath their nose...which seems to be the style among essential employees where I live...or otherwise finding ways to circumvent the rule. 

So if I believe that proper mask obedience and protocol is necessary to save my life, I’d be in a state of anxiety every time I left my cabin. And I haven’t much faith in RCCL capturing, isolating and disembarking mask deniers.
 

How is that going to work?

i do not want to go on vacation and be anxious. I also don’t intend to be the cruise police, reporting people who are non compliant or part way compliant. I am not spending money to do either.

2 hours ago, broberts said:

 

One contact is sufficient. I was attempting to convey the fact that some time passes between a contact and infection.

 

I think one has to distinguish between those with a developing infection but yet to display symptoms and  asymptomatic sufferers who have a full blown infection. Both are highly infectious. 

“What we know” ...what experts tell us...is changing rapidly..
 

Not  even the “experts” can definitely deem asymptomatic cases as “highly infectious.”  They said that about infection from surfaces...now had to pull that back. 

One study says one thing...a few weeks later...oh gee, something different. 

We all have to assess our own risks and comfort level and proceed with our lives from there.
 

1 hour ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Trying to understand your logic. Are you saying people get COVID19 without being exposed?  I say, if you have ZERO cases, your likelihood of catching is ZERO. 

Please explain this statement.  It puzzles me every time you say it.
 

We all started at zero.
 

NYC had zero cases at some point. Pick any nursing home...back in early autumn they had zero cases. Surely you are not saying they had zero chance of infection? Because we know sadly, that was not the case. 
 

That’s like saying if you were outside and dry when the storm started, you can stay outside in the downpour because you have zero chances of getting wet.  Or if your boat didn’t sink when the Typhoon started, no worries... your chances of sinking are zero.

I don’t think you mean that...but I’m not following how you have come to the conclusion that any place with zero infection will stay at zero? Not unless they pull up the moat and allow no entrance or exit to Fantasy Island. 

Dr Fauci....today

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci told CNBC on Friday.

“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” Fauci said during an interview with CNBC’s Meg Tirrell on “Halftime Report.”

He said the U.S. had to institute severe measures because Covid-19 cases were exploding then. “But now is the time, depending upon where you are and what your situation is, to begin to seriously look at reopening the economy, reopening the country to try to get back to some degree of normal.”

15 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

But that’s not what happened. Those patients just can’t get up and go out and about. Like I have said before, if the community you are in, be it your zip code, house, club, church, or whatever, has ZERO infection, the chance to get it is ZERO. Let one come in and ZERO is no longer a probability. 
 

The contact tracing showed some staff brought it in. These nursing homes don’t pay well. 

 But weren’t we ALL zero at one point?
 

And, as I pointed out...my neighborhood is spilling over with people who have come from other areas. My county and the neighboring county have COVID infections.

My sisters nursing home allowed visits for the first weeks...they took them out to church. Doctors came in and treated them. Hairdressers came in. They were not hermetically sealed. Once the virus started, those frail and vulnerable souls were prime hosts for the infection.

Im not sure how anyone can PROVE at this point where the infection originated...it does not have DNA markings or fingerprints. They can assume...but are there ways to prove a source? In all honesty, if so...I’d like to read about it.

I just do not think there is settled science about these asymptomatic carriers and infection. I think it’s going to go the way of the once popular surface infections.

1 minute ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Well, in that nursing home with 22 deaths, you tell them Asymptomatic people can’t transfer COVID19. 

But it might be that all those patients infected the staff.  The staff was healthy enough to only have mild or zero symptoms.

1 hour ago, HBE4 said:

 

 

Hmmm, seems like you are politicizing the debate. 😉  I thought you didn't like that. Even before the pandemic, I never went to NYC beaches. Too crowded and too inconvenient for me to get to.  I could be at a nicer beach much more quickly. I might go to LI beach but not right away, water is too cold. I also don't go to Walmart. Too crowded, but I will go to essential stores.  Physically attending church right now is not essential to me.

 

You are somewhat right. I'm okay with the country reopening ,especially less affected areas. I'm okay with NY reopening too in a gradual, common sense manner. I might even go as far as to say I feel better about NY than I do other parts of the country.  At one point, NY accounted for 50% of all new cases & deaths in the county. Today, the daily totals in NY are less than 10%, meaning that 90% of all new cases & deaths in the country are in places not named New York.  The daily numbers have been declining every day for 30+ days while in 30+ states, numbers continue to rise or stay the same.

 

Two people can look at the numbers in Texas, Georgia, SC and Florida and say they are not as bad as expected.  Person A will say 'Good for them, they locked down the state before the virus took hold and squashed the curve before it had a chance to rise. Good thing they didn't hesitate a few days like NY or Italy did". Person B will say "See, it was no big deal. Media Hype. Fear Porn. So many people over reacted".

 

Honestly, Person B scares me more than the virus. How many other things are they going to deny? Even worse, should there be a 2nd wave, those will be the ones making it worse than the 1st wave. Or if there is another, new disease in a few years, they'll point back to this and say, "see, the world didn't end", forgetting that countless lives have been saved.  How many? Who knows. Maybe 2.1 million if some estiimates are to be believed.

 

Bottom line, it is real, just because you don't see it in your backyard.  We can argue with numbers, morality rates, rates of transmission etc. all day long. But it happened, in China, Iran, Italy, Spain, NY, New Orleans, Michigan, Navajo nation, and meat packing plants across the country.

 

You and I probably agree more than we disagree. It might not come across that way as we both get stuck in the details of our debates. So on that note, enjoy this holiday weekend with your family, especially your daughter from London. Happy Memorial Day. Stay safe.  #flattenthecurve, #stopthespread.

 

P.S. - Montgomery, AL is running out of ICU beds and Ford closed down 2 plants it just reopened due to covid. Not....quite....out...of...the...woods....just....yet.   The floor is yours. 😇

 

 

Oh that naughty CNN...always tweaking to serve the “narrative.“

https://www.wsfa.com/2020/05/21/montgomery-hospitals-can-handle-icu-bed-shortages-state-health-officer-says/

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (WSFA) - State Health Officer Dr. Scott Harris spoke Thursday afternoon about the state of hospitals in Montgomery, which Mayor Steven Reed says are at a “critical point.”

Harris said he is aware that many conventional Intensive Care Unit beds at Montgomery hospitals are filled; however, he said he spoke with Dr. Donald Williamson with the Alabama Hospital Association and understands hospitals have available spaces that can be used as ICUs.

***Harris also said this is nothing new.**

“I would say hospitals frequently, from time to time, have issues like this, and they generally do work those issues out between themselves,” Harris said.

He also said transfers of patients from Montgomery hospitals to Birmingham hospitals are not unusual, and he suspects a lot of people in Montgomery hospitals are from other parts of the state.

“I absolutely agree with the mayor that they have reached capacity there, but I also believe they have the ability within their four walls to handle that and handle more if necessary,” Harris said. 

Baptist Health seemed to echo Harris’ statements about the situation, saying in a press release that while capacity within ICUs has been reached throughout this pandemic, this is not ***uncommon within typical hospital day-to-day operations.****

“The availability of these beds is ever-evolving and the number of beds in use changes by the hour,” the release said. “This is the case in a non-COVID environment and remains consistent during the current COVID-19 pandemic.”

Baptist said when a patient requires highly specialized treatments or procedures not available locally, many of them are transferred to UAB Hospital in Birmingham. Likewise, smaller community hospitals in central Alabama often transfer patients Baptist Medical Center South, the tertiary care referral center.

Baptist said at this time, no patients have been transferred to Birmingham for COVID-related care.