TroubleT

Bravo Celebrity! 

We will take FCC since we cruise all the time and we are not planning on quiting cruising. But WHAT A RELIEF!!! 

30 minutes ago, Jim_Iain said:

I'm keeping an open mind -   We are booked on the 3/15, 3/21 and 3/28 cruises --- -only the last one has a stop in DR -  To be honest I love sea days and wouldn't mind a cancellation of the port.

We are also on 3/21 and 3/38 cruises. The first one has 2 stops in Mexico and Mexico has 2 (???) confirmed cases. I really hope Celebrity will do something about it: like giving us an option to cancel or rebook.

On 7/2/2017 at 4:25 AM, zebra36 said:

Can't say that I have run across any reduced single supplements. To make matters worse, now with the bundling of the perks(?) a solo cruiser pays the full cabin supplement but only gets half of the $ value benefit(?), at least that is how it prices out when I check on their web site.

I completely agree and it doesn't make any sense. If a solo cruiser pays double then I think he/she should get double laundry coupons, double evening drinks, etc. As for tipping, I always tip more than double my stateroom attendant and MDR staff.

Wow! Looks like those cruise ships and cabins will be so clean!

I am the same way: I clean everything around me (even the passenger on the plane who sits next to me!)

My sister is a citizen of Belarus. I would like to purchase a travel insurance for her just in case. What company sells it for foreigners?

For the last many-many years we've been booking cruises while on board and then we had a 90-day window to transfer the bookings to our Travel Agent.

Does the same rule apply if I book a cruise online or over the phone with Celebrity? Will I be able to transfer it to my TA?

Thank you!

P.S. Live in the US.

Thank you very much!

Very helpful information!

We are planning a cruise with a toddler. :)))

Would like to hear about all "challenges" we are going to experience.

It will be a 7 night Caribbean cruise. The baby will be 2 years and 3 month on the day of the sailing.

I know Celebrity has Kids Club. What are the working hours and what is the minimum age to be in the Club?

I also have read somewhere that Celebrity offers private or group babysitting (min age = 6 month, I think) for a fee.

If someone has sailed with a baby and can share the experience - it will be appreciated.

Happy sailing!

Thank you all for your answers! I really appreciate it!

I also don't see "the slippery slope" here.

1. As someone mentioned, my friend pays 100% single supplement. So she pays for 2 guests.

2. Also, she won't be joining any big tables (and big tables as far as I know are reserved for big groups in Blu). So she will occupy the same small table for two (with one open seat for me :))).

The only small print in this rule is "based on availability". But that brings us to item # 2 - one seat will always be available at the table for two.

My friend who will be staying in Aqua Class cabin said that Celebrity had a rule: *Guests who are traveling as Singles and booked in Aqua or Suite Class staterooms paying a double occupancy rate will be allowed to bring one guest from any non-Aqua/ non -Suite stateroom category when dining in Blu Restaurant at no additional charge.*

Did anybody have that experience with Blu and non-Aqua guest? And is it a one-time dining or it can be every evening?

5 hours ago, chemmo said:

OP, why have you booked future cruises you don’t intend to take because the prices are to high? Please note, I am not being critical I just don’t understand.

 

Surely the message Celebrity is receiving if you book when their prices are high is that ‘the market accepts  the price’?

 

Whilst we have cruises presently booked for the Caribbean and Asia with Celebrity we didn’t book one in Europe because we thought it was too expensive...prices are just beginning to drop....

 

Re boarding....Celebrity tries to stagger boarding times by sending out the suggested times as you received. You chose instead to arrive at the busiest time when priority is given to suite guests, higher level loyalty members...Whilst it would be nice for everyone to board as they choose Celebrity does need to manage it. Suite guests have paid for their priority boarding and higher level Captains Club members have earned it. If you are not in either category and come at a time different to the one recommended you must be prepared for a short wait...

 

mfs2k....Some Celebrity cruisers regularly use other lines too, some are less frequently using Celebrity because they feel in some ways it is ‘missing the mark’ and many (like us) love the Celebrity experience but are choosing our itineraries carefully because of pricing...We could have booked another cruise line in the Mediterranean this summer but chose an alternative holiday type instead. We simply didn’t feel another cruise line would suit us as well...

 

 

Chemmo,

Honestly, at the moment of booking you are just so excited about that new cruise coming that you don't even think about the numbers. But it took me 2 minutes or the walk up to Deck 7 into my stateroom to realize that the cruise price looks like the phone number. I've been cruising for 15 years. Maybe it's not a lot, but I am not a newbie. And I understand that changes are inevitable. But that change hurts.

12 hours ago, happy cruzer said:

The original poster asks do they think we are stupid?  And yet she bought perks she didn't want or use?

 

i appreciate the report but the disappointment seems misplaced. Again thanks for your update, it will help set expectations.

As far as perks (to buy or not to buy), it wasn't even an option: it was given to you. Of course, I could decline this nice offer, but my cruise price wouldn't change. Looks like they are going to implement a new tactic after April 4: just cruise price/no perks/ and non-refundable deposit. Uhhhhh…. And again they force us to take their second option: high cruise price/useless perks and refundable deposit. I just don't want to book with non-refundable deposit. Life if funny and anything can happen. I need to have a freedom of cancelling at any time before final payment day.

12 hours ago, mfs2k said:

It seems to me the old business model of Celebrity was no longer successful and they needed to compete with Carnival,  Royal and NCL. Somewhere along the line X has reduced costs and prices to compete with other mass cruise lines. 

 

What I have trouble understanding is why old timer X cruisers who don’t like the changes stick with X and are unhappy and write so much about how much better it used to be. 

 

If I were a regular guest at a restaurant, hotel, resort, casino company or cruise line, and I felt my company of choice was no longer meeting my expectations, I’d jump ship (pun intended) regardless of frequent guest status, and find something nicer which met my expectations. .

 

Who wants to go on a cruise after spending a lot of money and feel constantly disappointed?  I certainly wouldn’t.

That’s why I switched to Celebrity despite my platinum status on another line. 

mfs2k,

That's exactly what I expected and kindly asked not to do: "If you are not happy than choose a different cruise line!"

The reason for this review or my comments is that I wanted other guests and Celebrity to see that we "SEE" the problem. When you see the problem in your family you don't go to the lawyer quietly and get a divorce. First you talk to your partner and discuss the issues. We, guests, have a business relationship with Celebrity: we pay - they provide the service. If I see the problem I talk to them first/send them the letter - DONE! If that doesn't help then you go to Marriage Counseling [CruiseCritic] - DONE! And if that doesn't work then you go to your lawyer [Travel Agent] and get a divorce (move to another cruise line). And am I the only one who sees that problem: outrageous prices, useless perks and decline in service?

17 hours ago, keelykat said:

Trouble T we are going on a back to back in August and wondering how the transition day went.  We normally do a 10 or 11 day in August on Equinox but they have done away with them and only 7 day summer cruises offered.

Keelykat,

B2B process was very simple and well organized by Celebrity. A couple of days before the end of the first leg of the cruise they had a meeting with all B2B guests. The envelopes with coupons for 30 minutes Internet access (to fill out survey), lunch coupon, and a letter with general information were distributed. The officer explained the process in details.

On transition day B2B guests (with passports and Sea cards) met in Tuscan Grill at 9:30 AM. Approximately at 10 AM they took the whole group out to the terminal where immigration officer checked our passports. It took about 5 minutes and we were back to ship. They started boarding new guests at about 10:20 AM.

I decided to post my kind of review, kind of survey, kind of my "thinking out loud" here on Celebrity Forum, because Carnival or  Norwegian Cruise Lines' guests don't care what is going on with Celebrity.

The cruises completed:

B2B:

March 16 - 7 nights - Equinox - Eastern Caribbean

March 23 - 7 nights - Equinox - Western Caribbean

I will be brief on some categories and will put more words where I was really impressed or disappointed.

Embarkation:

It started really well. No lines whatsoever. Or maybe it's because I didn't stick to the schedule Celebrity sent us a week prior to the cruise. I always like to arrive early and to be in the first group to check in and be on board by 11 AM. Like I said, the check in process took probably less than 5 minutes. But then the port security routed every single guest to the waiting areas based on their Level/Class/Stateroom category/height/weight or God knows what else without any explanation. I always like to know why certain things happen. The answer "Go there and wait there" is not a valid answer for me. Am I being difficult? And I don't mind waiting for 15 minutes, and may be even for an hour if the reason is good and if the waiting area is comfortable enough. For God's sake, why does it have to be so freaking cold in the Terminal? The passengers were prepared for the Caribbean cruise and we all wore shorts, light blouses, dresses, t-shirts. The temperature in the waiting area was probably 51 F. It was the worst 45 minutes of waiting. I was trying to hide behind the poles, chairs… I didn't know what would come first: my cruise or my cold.

Welcome on board drink:

Thank you Celebrity for a nice beginning of the cruise, but regular Prosecco is gone. It was just OJ and Kir Royale (which was basically cranberry juice with a splash of Prosecco). I am not complaining, but it's just one of the items that disappeared (permanently! - And I will get back to the list of items that are gone later in this review).

Ship appearance:

The ship is getting old and really needs some maintenance: lots of rusty spots on the balcony, the carpeting is getting old. Equinox is going to a dry dock in 4 weeks so hopefully it will be fixed. However, the crew did a great job keeping the ship absolutely clean! The staff at the Oceanview Café was doing a great job! I never saw dirty dishes or tables left for more than a few seconds. The cleaning staff was all over the ship constantly wiping, cleaning, disinfecting! Great job with hand sanitizing!

Ports:

My biggest disappointment was that ALL land excursions in port of Cozumel were cancelled by Miami office a week before the cruise. I know that for some guests it was once in a lifetime opportunity to see Chichen Itza. Miami office didn't even give a reason why it was cancelled. The itinerary (or the order of ports) was changed on the second week and as far as I see we had less time in George Town. The rest of ports was exactly what I expected: I know what I was booking so no complaints here.

Service:

Excellent! I am always impressed by the hard work of the whole crew and staff team! They never disappoint! And when people ask me what was the highlight of my trip, I always say that it's people I met on board!

Future cruise sales:

While on board I always book a new cruise (or two, or three :-))). And I did it again! However, most likely all three bookings will be cancelled. I know it's been discussed so many times here, but I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. The prices! How does Celebrity come up with these outrageous prices for any cruise you book? Before there were different "categories" of cruises based on itinerary and class of the ship. The price was higher or lower based on these factors. "Exotic" itineraries (Australia/South America/Mediterranean, Asia, etc.) were always the most expensive. Caribbean cruises were always kind of in the mid category. The "budget" cruises were always Transatlantic or repositioning cruises. Not anymore! I booked three cruises in every category (the number of days/nights is the same). The price was almost the same. The difference is so insignificant (just a couple of hundred $$$ higher or lower) that all of them fell into the same group: UNAFFORDABLE! Why is it happening? My dumb guess is that we are paying for the new ships Celebrity is building. Because I don't see any improvement in food or service. As a matter of fact food got so bad that I will put more words than I probably should in this review. Another catch of Celebrity is the perks they "give" when you book on board. They look so tempting! But… Do they think we are stupid? Yes, our price is a little higher, but we give you "so and so" OBC ($550 for veranda stateroom), and two other perks (Bev Package or Internet or Paid Gratuities). If you calculate the cost of all the perks they give the $$ amount is pretty impressive. But do I really need them? Now I am stuck with Bev Package and have to drink their cheap liquor. And I am stuck with OBC that I need to spend on board buying all the crap they sell at the stores or I lose it. Many years ago we didn't have Bev Packages. I am not a big drinker: just a glass of prosecco in the morning and a glass or two of wine at dinner. Now you are "forced" to drink. And speaking of drinking… Another thing that Celebrity staff is pushing on board is an Upgrade to a Premium Bev Package. But (since I am a wine drinker) the only place where you can get a premium wine is MDR. All bars around the ship carry only wines that are in Classic Bev Package. Once after two or three stops at different bars I ended up at Passport Bar on Deck 3. On my request to give me Malbec that was in Premium Package the bar attender said that only cheap Malbec was available. I said I wouldn't leave until I get what I paid for. Needless to say I was his worst enemy. So you pay for premium but drink only cheap stuff. Hello, Celebrity!!!

Disembarkation: Probably the fastest and easiest I ever had! The Immigration and Customs Line was moving so fast we hardly slowed down. It was a very organized process with luggage groups and exiting the ship.

And my favorite topic: FOOD! It's like the cherry on the cake!

First, I've never seen so many carbs in one place (Oceanview Café). Bread, Danishes, muffins, bagels, donuts, turnovers, tarts, cakes - they occupied almost all the isles in OV Café. You can hardly find grilled tomatoes. There were only two trays with bacon and sausages. But carbs were all over the place. The carts and trays with pastries were moving around the OV Café non-stop. Of course, bread is cheap. And it fills your stomach really fast. And in 5 minutes you are hungry again. And then you go for the second round of carbs! Very smart, Celebrity! The choice of food items in the OV Café was very-very basic, poor and limited.

Now I get to the list of items that disappeared from the OV Café menu or MDR menu. My recent cruise was not long ago - just three months ago on Eclipse. And even this short period of time was enough for many items to be gone. And I am not talking about food items/events that went to a Black hole years ago. I am talking about the changes that happened in three months since my previous cruise.

1. Frog legs - GONE! Last December I asked F&B Manager about it. His answer was really cute: there were only 1 000 English speaking guests on board. That is why they removed frog legs from the menu. Really??? Since when non-English speaking guests don't eat frog legs? And since when English speaking guests are treated as a second class?

2. Frozen berries for breakfast - GONE!

3. Prunes - GONE!

4. Cottage cheese - GONE! I saw it I think only twice during 2 weeks cruise.

5. Hashbrown - GONE! I saw how the managers of OV Café were bringing hashbrown for some guests from the MDR. It was probably a special request. Celebrity, it's just potatoes! Fried potatoes! Bring it back, please!

6. Freshly squeezed OJ in Premium package - GONE!

7. Parfait in Spa Café - GONE!

8. Precooked stir fry in Asian section - GONE!

9. Paper cups with lids in OV Café - GONE! Not a food item, but still… GONE.

10. Theme lunches or dinners - GONE. Once in two week period we had "Latino" lunch and dinner.

11. Bread pudding with the choice of two sauces as a desert for lunch - GONE! They have it now at 4 PM for a mid-day snack. And of course it's not the same bread pudding as it was before.

Well, feel free to add more items to this "GONE" list.

But my question is: What is next? Celebrity, do you need ideas what else to remove from the menu?

Here we go:

1. Eggs benedict - I am pretty sure it's coming (or going away).

2. Waffles - way too fancy for OV Café.

3. Escargot - once Celebrity tried to remove or substitute it with stuffed mushrooms. We didn't buy it. But they can try to remove it again.

4. Cute biscotti they serve at Café al Bacio. Celebrity already removed small chocolates from Café al Bacio years ago. Now it's biscotti time to be GONE. We can stuff ourselves with cakes.

I don't know what to recommend to remove from the MDR menu. Because we are close enough to be stuck with only two items on the menu.

I hope I am not the only one who notice these things and is not shy to speak about it.

And I don't want to hear "If you are not happy than choose a different cruise line!". I think we deserve to get what we pay for. If the price went 200% up then we should expect a better quality product.

Happy cruising everyone! 😃

On 4/1/2019 at 10:26 AM, julia said:

Wow....  that's very good to see the beverage perk included in TA's & TP's, but I'm sure it will send the prices up.

It already did. :-))

4 hours ago, coupeb said:

Our cruise ends in Buenos Aires.  We want see Iguazu Falls and then carry on to Rio de Janeiro before flying home.  Due to the way the flights to/from Igauzu work, we're thinking of doing things in this order to make the most of our time:

1. Fly early morning from Buenos Aires to Iguazu Falls - Argentina side airport; check in to hotel in town on Argentina side.

2. Visit Brazil side of the Falls that afternoon.

3. Spend the next day visiting the Argentinian side of the Falls.

4. Fly out the next morning to Rio from the Brazil side airport.

 

Will this work? 

 

Any issues with the Brazil Visa entering Brazil twice?  

 

Thanks very much.

Absolutely!

I only don't understand why you need three days. It's more than enough to have just one day to see the Argentinian side of the Falls. 

Last December we did the same itinerary:

1. Flew early morning from Buenos Aires to Iguazu Falls - Argentina side airport; check in to hotel in town on Argentina side; did the tour of the Argentinian side. Had a great dinner at the local restaurant. 

2. Day 2: Visit Brazil side of the Falls. 

Our flight was late in the evening. We could have had it in the late afternoon. There are different routes on Brazilian side of the Falls, but you actually need to see only The Devil's Throat. Some may disagree with me, but our group felt that it was a waste of time to spend the whole day on Brazilian side (especially when the temperature was 112 F!).

Does anybody know or maybe someone from Ukraine has been travelling recently to Cayman Islands and Bahamas if Ukrainian citizen needs a visa to enter these countries while on board of the cruise ship?

Called Captain's Club, Celebrity, VisaCenter for cruise lines - all answers are different!!!

Found this information directly on their tourists sites:

https://www.bahamas.com/cruise-passengers

http://www.immigration.gov.ky/portal/page/portal/immhome/visitinghere/visas/visitorsvisas/listofcountries

Looks like visa is not required if the person has US visa. But would like to hear personal experience.

Thanks a lot!!!

Choosing Say Hueque for our 7 day staying in Buenos Aires wasn’t my choice. Unfortunately, I had to be with the group and they already committed to this company. I didn’t mind working with Say Hueque based on the reviews on TripAdvisor. However, our experience was a completely different from most of the reviews.

1. Planning and communication: In general, this process was smooth. However, the communication could be better sometimes. If the time difference between our countries was 12-14 hours that would be totally understandable. But it is only 3 hours' time difference and sometimes it was taking days and multiple emails to get ahold of somebody from Say Hueque office. I also understand the cultural thing of the South America - life is not as fast and dynamic as in the North America. But since that company deals with the clients from all over the world certain things should be adjusted and should be up to the world standard. The last day in Buenos Aires and Tango show is a perfect example of a total disaster in communication. I will get back to this problem in details later in my review.

2. Meet-And-Greet at the cruise terminal in Buenos Aires and city tour. We arrived to Buenos Aires via cruise ship. It was our disembarkation port. Long hours of waiting was totally cruise line and port authorities fault. Finding Say Hueque representative was easy. Augustina (our guide for the day) was absolutely fantastic! What a sweet person with tons of knowledge and information about everything in Argentina and Buenos Aires! We just loved our guide! We had an excellent tour of the city with lots of stops and enough time to take pictures and to see everything. A nice touch was a gift from Augustina: wine for the guests and empanadas at the local restaurant.

3. Two days trip to Iguazu Falls. Pick up service was excellent. The car arrived on time. The ride to the airport was uneventful. Check-in process was pretty easy. We met Adrian our guide for two days at the airport - again it was easy to find him. He gave us time to change at the airport. I must say that we were lucky to have such a great guy as Adrian: cool, very professional, with lots of information. He really took a great care of the whole group. Iguazu Falls trip was a highlight of our stay in Argentina. The whole group agreed that the trip was fantastic, but we also agreed on the point that the time planned by the company (not the guide!) was very inefficient. I realize that every tour company wants to make money and try to sell all possible plans/tours to the guests. But Say Hueque should work on the tours for different groups of people: considering their age, health condition, interests. Our full two days trip could be easily done in one day or one and a half day. The Argentinian side was easy. The Brazilian side doesn't have to be all day long. If we were warned that we had to take 4 different routes and some routes were a few kilometers long then we'd definitely decide on one route only. I think Say Hueque should work on and offer a compact tour of Iguazu Falls: Argentina side and Devil's Throat on Brazilian side. The rest of the park is very optional. Our flight back to Buenos Aires was delayed. It's not Say Hueque fault or problem. But the tour company should treat its clients like little kids. Based on the experience Say Hueque should know that flight delays happen all the time and it was not doable to have a full day tour with early start the next day. We got to the hotel by 2 AM. Of course, we couldn't wake up for our 9 AM tour. It was our responsibility to cancel it. Again, the communication problem was right there. I sent Say Hueque multiple emails about delays and a possibility of cancelling the next day tour at the Farm. And yet the tour company was ringing the doorbell at 8 AM in the morning. Don’t they have some kind of process in place to communicate with the third party they hire for tours?

4. Full day Farm Day Fiesta Gaucha tour. The situation with that tour was absolutely unacceptable. The cancelation policy of all the companies I used to deal with was at least 48 hours, sometimes it's enough to give a warning 24 hours before the tour. I emailed Say Hueque 9 days (!!!) before the tour with the request to cancel it. And the answer that it can't be refunded is a clear scam. How difficult is it to create a refund through PayPal? I had similar situations so many times. Tours are cancelled all the time for so many reasons. And Say Hueque should have a procedure in place in the situation like this one.

5. Tango Show… Dancers and performers have nothing to do with Say Hueque - it's a different business and I should give them a big credit - they were fantastic! But the rest of the tour was a catastrophe! Starting with a two hour waiting time in the lobby of the hotel and no communication whatsoever! I had to call Say Hueque office and the on-call person routed me God knows where. Basically, the representative didn’t even want to deal with my issue. She gave me the phone number of a contact person from Say Hueque. She wasn’t available. I had to get hotel manager involved into this fiasco! Taking a taxi in the middle of the night wasn't something I was planning on doing in Buenos Aires. The Tango Show company paid me back - at least it was a good move on their side. I've been to so many Shows and perfectly understand the concept of "touristy trap", but that show topped everything! The food was awful, the service was inattentive, the place was cold as an igloo! And again another mistake on Say Hueque side: knowing that their clients have an early flight they should have advised on the late hours of the show. I couldn't stay till the end of the show. Knowing the situation with pick up service I couldn't afford to wait or be on the bus till 2 AM when I had to get up at 4 AM for my morning flight. Again, I had to take a taxi back to the hotel and pay out of pocket. I must say that it was a completely ruined day, a very bad experience and a waste of my time and money.

6. Airport transfer. No complaints here: the car was on time. Good service of the driver.

Conclusion: We loved Argentina and Buenos Aires, but we paid big money (and looks like we are not the only ones who complaint about overpriced tours provided by Say Hueque) and expected everything working smoothly. I don't have to place multiple phone calls, deal with taxi, worry about flights. Did I have high expectations? Yes, based on the price I paid. Was I satisfied with the service? Most of the times - no. The company is not flexible in changing the itinerary at the last moment. Cancellation policy doesn’t exist. Customer is not valued and ignored when critical situation happens. For my next trip to South America I will definitely use a different tour operator with better customer service and friendly cancellation policy.

During my last vacation, a 7-night land tour with Road Scholar of the Black Hills area, someone else in the group asked me if I have plans for anyv future trips. I said "Danbue River cruise in June next year." She got a mouthful of information - 2 full days in Budapest that include visiting the biggest synagogue in Europe; stops in small towns and Vienna; debark in Prague and psend 3 more days there. I did not pressure her to choose the same cruise line, itinerary, and dates, but she really was interested in Melodies of the Danube on the Ama Sonata.

 

It took her only two weeks to make a decision. After clicking on links I sent her (we exchanged email addresses) and cruise reviews right here on Cruise Critic, she contacted AMA Waterways. Surprise! The cruise line has informed her they "waived thef single supplement" for our dates. Huh? The cruise line has a single supplement on most cruises but not June 12-19? I have never heard of cruise lines doing this. It can't be related to being a frequent cruiser because she never sailed on AMA Waterways before. How is this possible?

It has nothing to do with being a frequent cruiser. AMA Waterways does waive a single supplement on many (not all) of the sailings.

Didn't know match.com merged with CruiseCritic.com.

Great idea (and you don't have to pay!) ;p

And since we list here our future sailings....

November 23, 2018 / Celebrity Eclipse / TA

March 16 and March 23 / Celebrity Equinox / Caribbean

You are welcome! ;p

Thank you all! :):):)

Are you arriving into Japan by air or by sea (and, leaving also ...)

 

What is your planned usage, on land while sightseeing - and/or in combo with a cruise ... the MiFi router will be of limited use (if any) while at sea since that will be accessing satellite data instead, and, much more expensive.

 

Here's a few recent threads/discussions & post-visit update to get you started on the research, grab a cup of coffee or tea to start browsing

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2598433&highlight=MiFi+Japan

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2607935&highlight=MiFi+Japan

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2369866&highlight=MiFi+Japan

Arriving by air (so I can pick it up at the airport) but leaving by sea (I need a drop off location close to my hotel).

I've used SoftBank in the past. They have counters at the airport. Pick it up when you arrive and drop off when you leave.

I need something that could be delivered to my hotel and with a drop off location in the city.

Would you please recommend a company torent a pocket WiFi in Japan that is hassle free for pick up and return?