DnD_Cruisin

Hey! I just figured it out. The reason some people are insisting that safety was not the reason for banning smoking on balconies is to argue that the rule is unjust and to justify not following it. Why else would some people care so much about the reason for the policy change?

 

 

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At least in my case your assumption would be incorrect. I do follow the rules and won't smoke on my balcony.

TBH I don't care if they bring it back or not. They won't of course so this point would be moot.

I'm more concerned with an outright 100% ban. So questioning vehemently this decision let's it be known that even though we are the minority ... we are still human too and deserve some rights.

A deck 9 cigarette is more dangerous? I never said any such thing. How in the world did you translate my post into that? :confused: You don't have to believe that fire concerns were one of the core reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that it was.

 

 

 

These are billion dollar corporations with shareholders to answer to. No decision is going to be made without deep diving into P&L and measuring the risk involved. As I said earlier, Celebrity was the only line that initially thought the risk of fire outweighed the risk of losing customers. That, and they wanted to show they were progressive for the time.

 

What people have a hard time coming to grips with, especially loyal cruisers, is that these cruise corporations are just like any other big business. Do you really think safety is #1? Of course not. These corporations do what they are told to do by the regulatory agencies like SOLAS, USCG, IMO, etc. Any further safety measures that are taken go through months or years of internal bureaucracy. Every cruise corporation took a very close look at the USCG report after the Star Princess fire and every single one of them knew what should have been done. But at a time when 21% of America smoked, P&L was the bigger concern. We're down to 14% now. By the way, I have it on pretty good authority that when the # hits single digits, we're going to see smokeless ships in one of the major lines.

Thank you for your reply. You confirm the primary point I was trying to convey. It's not about health. It's not about fire safety..it's all about P&L.

Definately those are factors that go into the decision. But had the smoking demographic not dropped to 14% we would likely still have smoking on balconies today. With the probable exception of Celebrity of course.

@aqua - Thank you for your service sir.

I can answer that for you. The fire hazard exists when a smoker flicks a lit cigaret overboard. On the public decks that person might be caught and kicked off the ship (one less smoker for the rest of the cruise). This safety rule cannot be enforced on the balconies.

A thought struck me with this solution ... I'm sure it was a talking point used by the cruiselines because on the surface it would resonate with the public .... except 1 small detail. It's a reactive not a proactive solution.

I know, I know you are thinking ... what gibberish is he talking now. Here's the issue and why it doesn't better our safety.....

A pax is spotted flicking a butt overboard, wonderfull that pax could be kicked off the ship.

Except 1 thing...

Where did the butt go?

Is there a process & procedure to locate and or validate the butt didn't land in flammable materials on a balcony? I'm guessing not. Why? Because they probably can't dedicate the staff to search hundreds of balconies for it. It's just not important enough.

This begs the question: How important is our safety really?

I still am surprised at the polling information, however unscientific and small sample it may be.

What surprises you specifically?

You are of course correct on equal advise.

Nerd don't be so snarky please. TBH it isn't helping your argument. Right or wrong it can shut people off to your truths.

Aqua ... Actually I would love to hear what your credentials are. It can help greatly with this discourse.

Where in the post you quoted did that person say the deck 10 cigarette isn't as dangerous? In fact, they went on to say...

 

 

 

Just like in the thread that was deleted, if you would take 1 second to try to comprehend what is being said instead of trying to be so argumentative, you'd see that what Cruz said makes perfect sense.

I'm sorry. But just because it makes sense to you...doesn't make it right.

The issue with saying the ban was because of safety is purely spin by the marketing types at the cruise lines. As I tried to illustrate in my previous post the actual decision is predicated on the P & L for the corporation. Which by the way ... Cruz alluded to this as well.

The choice of saying it's for safety reasons, while partially correct, is not the whole story. Once the choice of reasons was made, they then devised talking points as to the areas that were left as smoking areas and that's what was also presented by Cruz.

The inconvenient truth is those talking points aren't quantifiable. They should and are being challenged here.

So while nerd's method for arguing these points are against your sensibilities ... launching personal attacks doesn't lend creditability to your actions here.

We all get passionate about our positions in these "discussions". I fell prey to adding snarky remarks in the other thread as well. Please try and join me in not doing it any more. I'm making the effort and I hope others will as well.

Happy sailing!

Quite clearly, I was prepared to enter the Devil's Cave, but concern for the women folk in our group prevented me from doing so. :)

Too bad. I heard tell they had free Don't shoot - We are not drug people t-shirts in the cave.......

Don't quote me but I beleive it is deck 9 next to the night club.

 

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This is correct. On the promenade 1/2 way between the aft and middle elevators by the night club.

Cruz, thank you for your informative posts. I have no doubts as to your background or veracity of your replies.

It's easy for people to critique decisions made after the fact. Scott Adam's has made quite a nice living at this with his Dilbert cartoons.

IMO The underlying truth is this decision (you also eluded to this) is corporate P&L. If safety was the primary concern it would have been implemented sooner.

I also know from having been involved in risk assessment and risk mitigation within the insurance industry that all risks where taken into account. In this case: fire, health, general safety, public acceptance and impact to P&L. Basically any risk whether financial, real or imagined. That initial assessment then goes to legal, compliance, marketing and communications dept for their input. Once a interim decision is made, marketing and communications generally determine which "reason" for the change would leverage the most acceptance and the least resistance.

Anyway, at the end of the day a decision was made and as with most decisions some folks will be unhappy.

Thanks again for your comments and happy sailing!

I'm not in disagreement with you on the rules and a right to a smoke free environment on the balconies. That's the rules and how it should be. My problem is in the allergy statement only.

As for the prescribed treatment argument ... I offer aspirin. Primarily prescribed as a pain reliever and a blood thinner. Just because I have a headache and am prescribed aspirin does it mean I also have heart disease.

As for "believing" whether something is an irritant or an allergen is irrelevant. Allergens are a finite group of fully identified items. It either is or it isn't. Believing it is doesn't make it so.

Anyway...I agree that smoking is harmful, leads to a myriad of health issue not the least of which is death. My complaint is the use of the term "allergy" associated with it.

I wish you all the best but will bow out of this argument as it really isn't the topic of this thread.

Happy sailing!

Sadly the NIH links are broken.

Medscape is a member site I don't have access too.

No where in the livestrong article does it say allergens exist. Toxins and irritants only.

Right diagnosis specifically states it's not a true allergy and found no allergens

Are there other articles maybe that substantiate your previous statement? Sadly the ones I can see refute it.

Does Carnival ever offer free gratuities or the free Cheers package? On our upcoming 2 Princess cruises we qualify for the liquor package and for the free gratuities. We opted for the free gratuities since we don't drink hard liquor or the foo-foo- drinks. We buy the wine package both on Carnival and on Princess. We did take the free gratuities though. Twenty-five days of cruising and no gratuities except for the alcohol. We're elite and get a mini bar in our room.:p

I've never seen it. But the cruise lines do play follow the leader if a specific marketing plan works. So who knows what the future holds....

Please read articles from NIH, Medscape, Health tap, Allergy and Astma Association to find out that there are allergens in a number of different brands of cigarettes.

Please provide links...cause all I found was "toxins and irritants" and "no record of allergens" listed on those sites.

A person can be allergic to a substance in the smoke which can cause a reaction. Example - they are allergic to nicotine which is present in cigarette smoke. They can have a reaction to that.

 

I do believe that true allergies to it are very rare, but they are by no means impossible. Once again, many people use the term "allergy" and "sensitive" or "irritant" interchangeably when in fact they are not. I do believe that many people incorrectly label their sensitivities as allergies because that is what they believe they are.

I understand the point you are making in the 1st paragraph. We could probably argue the semantics for years. So I'll go with respectfully agree to disagree 😀

However, I agree whole heartedly with your second paragraph. It conveyed my thoughts exactly. For some, it's just easier to say I am allergic (and for some empowering) than to just say it irritates my allergies.

Regardless ... the smoke can create discomfort for some and as such they still have the right and expectation to a smoke free environment ...if that is the rule.

If they want to make a rule against wearing perfume, then so be it. One less thing for me to pack :cool:

Nice. Win win! 😃

I don't deny or even argue that smoke is an irritant that can cause people to have an issue. People with allergies are more susceptible to it.

But with all the studies done to date no allergen has been found in tobacco smoke. Until that happens ... no allergen = no alergy.

You can be allergic to anything that exists. I know someone who is allergic to Benadryl - the very medicine that is used to counteract allergic reactions.

The true definition of an alergy and smoke. "Alergy" is one of the most miss-used terms I know of.

https://www.sharecare.com/health/impact-nicotine-addiction-on-body/is-cigarette-smoke-an-allergen

See, DnD knows the game!!!!

 

"Beer and a bump"....I never heard that before, I like it!!!!

I enjoy giving a lil extra for good service. Funny thing is ... I like to talk with the crew.

I work with people from all over the world on a daily basis in my job. Learning about their cultures is both interesting and usefull to me. It helps me be a better manager.

So while the tipping certainly helps I think the respect we show them can carry as much or more weight in how they treat us in return.

Then again... that holds true for everything in life, so why should a cruise be different?

Grats! We did that cruise in Jan 2014. Loved it.

Boilermakers....nice!!!!

 

The BV package would work for you as far as having a bottle and your beers in your room....if you want to buy multiple shots with multiple beers w/o the BV package, the best bet would probably be pay as you go, so you could buy multiple of each and not have to wait

My friends from MN call this "a beer and a bump". My wife loves that term lol

I have found using first's tipping method with a bartender also works for the 5 minute rule. On my last cruise my wife and I wanted to partake in a beer and a bump with some folks we met on the ship. My guy did it for us with a wink and a smile.

Yes you can buy buckets but would have to pay full price on SS. Kinda defeats the purpose of Cheers though

Cruising in two weeks, read most of these posts, completely agree with almost everything said and learned a lot! My question is tipping...as I understand it, 15% gratuity is in included in the package, so do you still tip your bartenders and waiters?

It's my understanding that the 15% is spread out amongst the entire bar team. We tend to tip additional and add .50 to 1.00 to the ticket. That $ goes only to the staff member on the ticket.

Do you "need" to do what we do? Absolutely not. But it makes us feel better to give a little something extra to those who work hard for us 😃

I can tell by your writing style that you are a kind and caring person who respects all (even those that don't deserve it). You have a natural ability to control a situation that could have potentially become nasty.

 

I hope everyone that has read this thread has learned something (I know I did!). For that, I thank you!

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Personally, I don't get "spiked" shakes, even on the Cheers! program. Now, this is only my opinion, but there are 2 ways of looking at this. If you are bound and determined to hit the 15 alcohol drinks, this is a way to slip another one in. But, I have never noticed that putting alcohol in them make much of a difference. They have many options and I have tried some with and without. Kahlua just tastes like chocolate to me and does not taste any different than the many other options. And I am a drinker. But, one, that if I can't taste alcohol in a drink, why bother? Just saying....:) I don't like things that "sneak" up on me.

I understand your thinking completely. For me it's just a subtle change in flavor. In truth I like them for that reason alone not that I could get drunk or even a buzz from it.

As it does count against the 15 max I might avoid them on Sea days. I haven't hit that 15 daily limit yet but wouldn't want to chance it! lol

I wondered about the spiked shakes. I couldn't decide if they'd be wonderful or disgusting. LOL

Haha someone else had a post that went something like:

A cruise is the only place a man's man can drink a fruity foo foo drink without fear of ridicule.

I lump the spiked shakes into the same category with the exception that they are a more stealthy approach to drinking!