In Retirement

Just in case you are still following. My greatest experiences with private tours are in locations such as major European ports where an individualized port stay is developed after considerable reading. In these settings, you have the option of spending time in buildings, not driving by them! You don't want to experience everyone else's bathroom breaks, meals served to 40 people, and planned stops for tourist spending in souvenir ships, you don't have to! Often by selecting a private driver, you get private tour planning services as well. An experienced driver knows times and is well aware to return you to your ship an hour before scheduled departure. In the days of cell phones, even transportation problems can be easily solved. Suggestion: don't only pay attention to published schedule, but check at gangway for "return by" details. We have never missed any ship departure. Last summer our cruise to Norway included two ports where the best option was to lease our own coach for the day! (20 couples were with us and all were reliable participants as well.)

DJ:)

We have grabbed one of the last balcony or mini-suite cabins for this ship's last Caribbean cruise (20 December/3 January). My last trip on a similar vessel was through the Panama Canal. Perhaps with the widening of the canal, other ships will be now available? Not surprised that larger ships generate more money and obviously offer flexibility for family and group travel.

Our winter travels so far are just for relaxation and obviously those from northern climes are escaping snow and ice, so leisurely island days, balcony star-gazing, and pleasant meals will be just fine. We are very happy with the larger Princess and HAL ships when planning family travels, as multiple adjacent balcony cabins can be selected and the kids have both separate activities and the balcony provides private access to family members.

Have seen what has happened to the Island Princess. If you want to cruise into Venice, this is the largest ship that now will be allowed to sail into the harbor and the balcony cabins that have been added most certainly change the character of the ship and make areas such as the gym much less appealing!

It will be interesting to see how NCL handles these new cruise lines: will they "spoil" them, or will they do as Carnival has, and leave corporate management separate? I personally will not sail on a Carnival ship ever again, but enjoy Princess and HAL. I am afraid that NCL "Freestyle" meets the standards of most Carnival "fun ships"?

Will have to check now on how active Cruise Critic will be on this last 14-night cruise.

DJ:)

Has anyone stayed in 6460 on Dream? I read online that it has some noise from the club being below it. I won't complain too much because this cruise was practically free for us but I would like to know if I should try bringing on a fan and some ear plugs. If the noise is too much then I guess I will just have to join the party every night and sleep in late. No one is ruining that cruise! :p

I guess being prepared is the "thing." If you know that below you is an entertainment venue with speakers attached to the ceiling that pump bass through your floor with appropriate vibration, at least you know. Perhaps you itinerary allows you to sleep in and stay up til 3am -- maybe find out when the last show is and go to it? We basically hoped for a very relaxing experience and without any preparation we got to fight against Carnival that did its best to not be honest with us (thanks to our neighbors in adjoining cabins, who talked with us out on our balconies and told us of their experiences with passenger relations).

Obviously, a good attitude and "no surprise" about what will happen is very good.

DJ:)

Pleased that some are still following. I'm considering posting a detailed discussion on river cruise forum, but don't want to start anything with river cruise company that will get me into trouble with them or Cruise Critic. I would say that a good number of people who post on CC are serious about travel preparation, while others just select a bus ride from the cruise line. Viking provides a product maybe even less and on the Rhine all tours were about three hours inclusive. Just watched a Rick Steve's 1/2 hour on TV and felt I got more out of program than the cruise. The TV and radio ads grow in frequency and people are buying! My thought is that even the casual retired traveler wouldn't want to do the same thing twice? I'm feeling quite limited, and maybe would consider another company in France (not interested in a return to Russia/Ukraine, or the pollution of China).

Would appreciate any other reactions to my original post.

DJ:)

Just found this topic: hope people are still following. Last summer we did a 3-segment (or maybe 4-segment) vacation with Amsterdam as the hub: Basel to Amsterdam (Rhine with Viking), train visit to Ghent and Brugge Belgium, visit to Rijksmuseum (day before ocean cruise) and day in college town of Leiden (day before flight home): the highlight of the vacation was a 12-night Celebrity cruise of Norway.

If I would give a global impression of this specific river cruise (our only) with the Celebrity Constellation/Norway is that I remember the river boat and meals, the bus and walking, walking, walking for the Rhine, while our Norway experience (in which I researched and selected for each port) we had amazing trips to and up mountains, cruises (ship and other boats) through fjords and waterfalls, very wonderful days in Bergen and Oslo (in spite of expense of Norway, we had already located the housewares store in Bergen and found a half-price sale on beautiful stainless that we brought home as gifts). There is the question of what you are about and what counts for you.

I am the kind of person who reads Cruise Critic and Trip Advisor, guide books, DVD lectures, absorbs internet information and plans with a good map what we do at ports and what we do in cities for multiple-night stays. I found preparation for the river cruise only led to frustration. Folks, people who are into food and drink and entertainment and life in/near a city in the US or Canada -- stay home? If you are into the "ambiance" and like to be surprised by your trip (no preparation) and you like to walk by buildings and go somewhere that will not cost anything or much, maybe a river cruise is for you. We had one several-hour experience in middle-Rhine to see the robber baron castles, were in three towns/cities where we arranged to visit art museums. Can't complain about food as you have the chance to see how limited the kitchens are. Really like to know if balconies are ever useful on any river cruise as they were a major waste of money on Basel/Amsterdam. Please remember the Viking is a privately owned company that has been able to grow from a few to many river boats and also ocean ships (800 passenger) in just a couple of years, so the profit margins have to be gigantic. "Tours" are designed to be most cost-efficient and expect that your priority is on wine and beer. My thought is if you are a wine/beer person you go visit late Fall and just rent a car! The fun isn't on the boat, its on land. I don't feel that we had a "unique experience" to visit "the river" (yes, we visited the ducks and swans), and because we returned to the boat for lunch (something we almost never did on an ocean cruise except for 1/2 day port visits) you basically had a one-hour port visit. For example, in the probably lovely city of Cologne we walked from the boat to the cathedral and back to the boat -- this was our given experience in Cologne! After lunch we spent a couple hours in their wonderful art museum (no one else did). Basically your vacation in France and Germany occurred between breakfast (which was good) and lunch (OK) and then back for dinner. Each lunch and dinner was a stress to arrange who to eat with and a major effort was made to get us to pay tips and the Program Director obviously made his salary from them (thankfully the captain was paid a salary that kept him on the ship!). My thought is if you enjoy the vacation of people cooking and cleaning for you and enjoy sitting on a balcony, you can get wise and pick good values.

I watch Viking TV and hear Viking radio adds every day and they are a wonder. If you "fall" for them, you do not critically evaluate what you see and hear: bits and pieces of all experiences are thrown together in 30 seconds to a couple of minutes and do not represent anything except for a wonderful commercial.

In comparison, we select everywhere, given calendar restrictions, where we are going and we plan what we are going to do when we arrive. Being diabetic, walking is good for me, while wine and beer are not. I'm very aware of attempts to make money and like in the rest of my life, I decide when to spend it. We have enjoyed 4-7 night stays in London, Paris, Barcelona and Amsterdam that we pair with a 12-night cruise and are happy to have selections and better service than in our home! I had selected this 7-night Viking cruise because it fit with a visit to Belgium and then this Norway experience (wonderful) and now wonder if any other river cruise company provide a better land experience? I have reviewed several Rhine/Germany travel TV shows and realize a rental car or a train with maybe three or four stops would have been the way to go (three nights our window and balcony was blocked by another Viking ship so they saved money and absolutely knew this would happen).

This summer I am giving my oldest grandchild a vacation (now being 14) and we will take his family and my sister-in-law on a 12-night Barcelona to Venice cruise on the Island Princess (3/15 June). We have private tours scheduled at each port, have a plan for Barcelona and have a lead for a day trip out of Venice as well.

I guess if you want some control over what you do on vacation and consider an European vacation an opportunity to experience culture and learn history and geography, this sort of river experience may not be for you. As a comparison, on the Viking ocean ship, a port visit to London is a roundtrip bus from Southampton in one day and a walking tour! Apparently they can attract people with money who find this what a trip to London is what it is all about (our last visit to London, in contrast, included days before and after a 12-night British Isles Princess cruise that included visits to Hampton Court by train, a visit to Kew Gardens by tube, a visit to the British museum by coach, and a day with Premier Tours to multiple areas eat of London including Canterbury and Dover. My concern is not the quality and volume of the wine, but a rich vacation experience that makes the horrible transatlantic flights almost bearable!

I'm really interested in hearing about any river cruises where you remember your tours and have an experience also where you have time to watch the land go by. Considering the state of the world, we can all wonder what are options will be like in the near future?

My best,

DJ:)

Heads up for everyone who assumes that a deck between noisy venues is enough space to protect from late night noises!!! Found out that this is not true!! Empress deck room 7394 was very noisy from dance club on deck 5. Loud bass thumped every night until the wee hours !!!! Live and learn!!!

It would have been interesting to go down one deck and visit folks in the cabin below you? I'm really impressed how sound travels through metal and how the construction industry apparently doesn't understand this issue. I've found that speakers are often attached to ceilings that are only inches from the top of the cabin's carpet! Strange how my only experience with becoming absolutely sick and enraged on a cruise was with a brand-new Carnival vessel just a couple of years ago. With your concern it might be useful to first locate all possible sound threats for a given ship to locate "safe zones" -- live and learn.

DJ:(

Avoid cabin 2396 - 2400 - 2404 on the Breeze (I assume these would be also a problem on the Magic and Dream)

 

We have had a cove before, and loved it (2407 - no noise) but these (2400 we had with 2396 and 2404 on either side) - they reported the same problems we did. They are under a dish washing station in the galley and large storage area in the galley. Not only is the noise 24/7, it is very loud.

 

If you plan to book, I suggest you visit your local bowling alley, and ask if they have a basement under the bowling lanes. If you can sleep through that scrapping, thuds and loud crashes, you will be fine - if not avoid these cabins, they are bowling up there for sure. :(

I violated my own guidelines a few years ago and sailed a brand-new Carnival ship (Magic) selecting the remaining aft balcony (four cabins are directly above an entertainment venue). Although you would have thunk that additional sound insulation or some wonder of materials placement would take into account some consideration of cabin status, nothing of the sort has taken place, and even a visual inspection of the entertainment venue revealed that audio speakers were mounted ON THE CEILING, that is they were attached to our cabin floors! No effort has been made to adjust, like the base sounds or placement of speakers on side walls, etc. I can only assume that the ship construction company has the goal of maximizing its profits and the cruise ship company is well aware of these issues, but just like the automobile manufacturers (ignition switch?) they just write off # of deaths, etc. We all must remain alert when selecting cabins. In all cases, cabins with similar spaces above and below are the most safe, and I believe that location, unless you have a severe reaction to movement, are a matter of financial and personal preference. Depending on the cruise and our need for adjoining cabins, we may select a side with the best land views from balconies, and otherwise have most enjoyed aft balconies.

Our best for a safe and productive 2015.

DJ:)

I just replied to your earlier message without reading through the rest of the overall thread and now see your latest message right above my reply. That is terrible. I just went on the Princess website to look at the deck plans for before and after April 2015 and it looks like they have taken over the aft decks on Dolphin and Caribe to put in a couple more rooms at the end of the ship and make a couple penthouse suites... I'm sorry about your rooms not being adjacent anymore between booking and them releasing the new layout but you should be able to call Princess and tell them you booked adjacent rooms for a reason and you want rooms that are adjacent. Hopefully they can shuffle people around so you can be in the adjacent rooms again. If they don't put you together again then you should ask for compensation.

Of course I didn't tell the entire story. Princess took our reservation and moved the cabins to fit the new design. They are still adjacent and will handle seven people. Of course, the problem is that they probably could have informed the TA that the original selections would no longer work even as to cabin classification, and they could have told them back in August/September when few cabins had been reserved. You see, the selection was also made with the location of the laundry room in mind (2 grandsons): close enough, but not too close. Now the laundry room has been relocated and it looks like our cabins will face the laundry room door! Of course, no cabin arrangement that fits are minimum requirement is now available and even though the Captains Club responded to me immediately, it referred my note to Customer Relations that I assume just placed it in the "never bother to respond" bucket.

Apparently the city of Venice enacted a regulation making Princess' larger vessels unable to sail to its dock, and the Panama-class vessels were seen as in need of a refitting to make them more profitable for this 12-night journey. If you have access to the standard deck plans, you will be perhaps even shocked at how public spaces (gym?) no longer have window access, but are interior spaces surrounded by upgraded cabins!

So now, for a first, making a comprehensive thoughtful selection of cabin(s) very early can be a mistake and cruise line staff apparently have no insight into what they do.

DJ:(

I am a planner and tend to plan 6 months to one year ahead. Have done this for next 3 June (Barcelona/Venice) making cabin selection (two mini-suites) and their location to hold 7 passengers with convenience. Understood that there would be an April dry dock, so just thought, Great -- new carpet and mattresses! Actually in this dry dock, cabins become suites, activity spaces move, and laundry rooms as well. Our two adjacent balcony cabins were no longer adjacent and were changed, without us or our TA being notified! Now we are directly in front of the door to the laundry room (which have been moved from the other hallway) and there is no available pair of port cabins available! I am truly amazed at the lack of consideration and sense demonstrated in a variety of situations, but we just live a bear it? The is the Island Princess, a Panama-class vessel that is being fitted with a large proportion of upscale cabins (even taking up the margins of public spaces). Apparently the city of Venice is restricting the size of ships that can sail into its harbor and obviously interfering with profit margins. Everyone please remember that these ships are made of metal which does a great job in carrying sound. You may think it strange for loud speakers to be mounted on the ceilings of entertainment venue over which cabins are placed -- but engineers aren't concerned and customer service reps just learn to act surprised when told about being kept up through the night!

DJ:(

Very subtle wording, but promoting one of those competition-based interactions? Hope you have some other ways of taking care of such frustrations other than minimizing the expressions of others? Yes, you must be the ideal cruise customer who can just absorb all experiences that come his/her way?

For myself, I'm a long-time Carnival stockholder and have expressed several places my surprise at how their brands not only differ (cost/price/performance), but how these companies don't even communicate. For example, if there is a problem with one line, how do others not have the same problem? We can remember the number of months where Carnival vessels were problematic in performance one after the other?

I learned two lessons from our previously cited experience: (1) it matters not what year a ship is built, they all of built of metal and metal does a great job of transferring sound. When selecting a cabin (this topic) ALWAYS consider the function of the space above and below the cabin you are considering. Of course, in hindsight, I demonstrated poor judgement in selecting an aft balcony cabin that was over an entertainment venue, even in a brand new ship (which was lovely and the cabin was lovely and the balcony was wonderful). Considering the sounds in that venue were 80% in our cabin (the floor vibrated from 9pm to 2am) we learned our lesson. The placement of this entertainment venue seemed both random and ill-advised as the potential for windows did not play into placement (or the selection of quiet activities). (2) Because the balcony was so wonderful (the extension aft was open between balconies) we met our "neighbors" who shared their experiences with us: we knew the experiences they had, how they had been offered a move and a rebate -- but our experience was classified to us as "never heard anyone with this complaint" even though others (probably on every prior cruise) had expressed as much! (How many people give the benefit of the doubt when functioning with prior knowledge that such complaints had been registered in the last couple of days? Can you imagine an entertainment venue where loud speakers were attached to the ceiling which was the metal floor of the cabins directly above? What engineering experts thought this a good idea? I was certain that the floor would have been insulated? If impossible, don't you think the sound system would have been relocated? My thought is that this problem never made its presence known in Miami and that passenger services still responds with surprise when told its impossible to sleep in these 3-4 cabins.

DJ:(

I just returned from the Carnival Liberty for an 8 day cruise. DO NOT GET rooms 9207,9211,or 9217. I am a travel agent and was traveling with a small group. All 3 of these rooms had no A/C. We complained continuously but got the side step shuffle. Everyone we talked to had a different excuse. From 75 degrees is normal to the compressor is out and was just replaced and it should be better in a couple of hours.....NEVER HAPPENED..... I almost slapped one sarcastic little bastard that smarted off to my wife while he came to check the temp for the umpteen dozen time. Several other rooms were complaining but it never got better. If we had not gotten a fan on day 1 I don't think we could have made it. 2 other cabins traveling with us did not get a fan because they said they were out! slept with the balcony doors open to keep from sweating to death. Power went off in the front half of the ship while at sea. I mean total darkness....No reason was ever given! Another night the emergency lights were on in our hallway for no apparent reason. This ship obviously has electrical problems that Carnival is ignoring. If something bad happens on that ship (I pray it does not) but if it does remember this post and get a GOOD Lawyer......We have made notes on all that happened on our trip. I fear Carnival Liberty is a Accident waiting to happen....If you are planning on a Cruise (which I Highly Sugggest) Stay away from Carnival Liberty :eek:

My only truly horrible experience was on a Carnival ship during it's first 6-8 months of service! My memory is cued everyday that I wear my Citizen Ecco that I purchased on board with credits provided after much story-telling, including obvious documented lies from the passenger service supervisor (our "problem" was equally shared with two neighbors with whom we talked from aft balcony to aft balcony!) Seems like they all go to the school that trains used car salesmen! It is quite amazing the differences among the companies within the Carnival umbrella--my experience with Princess is that I can expect an answer to any of my questions, often from the specific appropriate department. Unbelievable that poor corporate performance extends to travel agents! Who knew?

DJ:)

It seems logical that as a port increases in cruise ship visits, the number of available local tour options will increase associated with demand? Our visit will be 10 hours on Thursday 4 June (out of Barcelona) and we are a family of seven including school aged and their grandparents.

I would be most thankful to hear about both wonderful and difficult experiences -- sometimes problem avoidance is the greatest assistance? Expecting a day with a van driver with multiple stops, maybe to include some boat experience? (Already ran into a company in Marseille, but not paying for a van to drive there first to start such an adventure; something local should be possible?

Much thanks,

DJ:)

Planning 2015 3-15 June Island Princess (Barcelona/Venice) and taking a family group of 7. This is a repetition of our 2009 vacation (except for Toulon) and have the frustration of being quite ready for either Marseille or MonteCarlo. We'd be happy enough for a group bus ride if it provided easy access to a couple of hours on a coastal boat. The idea of paying for a van for 8-9 hours and then spending that time on a boat while the van driver takes a long break seems very inefficient. Because our group includes those easily fatigued (an 8 year-old and a 68 year-old) we don't plan to take a complicated walk to point A, nor have the challenge of discovering the method of return to the last available train, etc. I might say that Aix does not seem to offer what is available in Nice/St. Paul or all of the locations accessible from Marseille (including access to the sea).

What worked for you and what resources did you use? (Hopefully all are still attached to forum and any information will be most appreciated!)

DJ

After reading, commenting for years, thought I'd try with my own question:

The Island Princess is significantly different than many of the larger Princess ships. Unlike in 2013 when I took family of 10 on an Alaska RT Seattle cruise, stuffing us into three consecutive starboard Baja balcony cabins (we are, afterall, a "close" family and children should be with their parents?) the Island only offers "3" and "4" person balconies in their many mini-suite cabins. We will be "7" in two adjacent and because of Barcelona/Venice, are looking at port adjacent cabins (one indicating 3 capacity, the other indicating 4 capacity). Looking at Caribe (larger? fully covered?) and looking aft: any idea if the two doors aft exit onto a medium balcony? Any idea how the extra beds are configured in these pricy cabins? On the Star Princess all extra beds dropped down from the ceiling (and the kids loved them).

DJ:)

After much deliberation, we settled on a Grand Circle Travel river cruise (Romance of the Rhine and Mosel) in November 2015. I had been reading the river cruise forum for about a year, trying to choose an itinerary, cruise line, and date. With so many options and glowing reviews, it really did seem like an impossible task!

 

For what it's worth, we narrowed it down by:

1. Choosing a general itinerary (river or rivers, where the cruise begins and ends, etc.)

2. Figuring out our priorities (the itinerary and quality of the tours was a high priority for us)

3. Comparing several options for our preferred itinerary, exploring those options in depth. (We looked at itinerary, cabin options, tours, cost, etc. of Viking's Rhine Getaway, GCT's Romance of the Rhine and Mosel, and AMA's Enchanting Rhine.)

4. Budget (we are traveling with some friends, so this was a joint decision)

5. Talking to someone we felt we could trust (I was going to consult a travel agent but happened to bump into a well-traveled, very active friend who speaks very highly of GCT after taking several trips with them. Her input definitely helped us make a decision.)

Our trip is still a long ways off, so I am in no position to recommend our trip over any other. We felt that the GCT river cruise would be a good fit for us at this time. But I am guessing that we would also be happy with one of the other options. Hope you can figure out what might work best for you!

For what it is worth, here is a little more about how we settled on this specific cruise with GCT:

 

• Looking at the various itineraries and prices (including the cost of airfare), we decided in favor of a longer cruise - about two weeks.
  
• We liked the idea of visiting several different countries and the specific ports and tour options of this itinerary appealed to us.
  
• We start off in Basel, Switzerland and end up in Antwerp, Belgium. The itinerary (if all goes according to plan) includes stops in Strasbourg, Riquewihr, Baden-Baden, Speyer, Boppard, Cochem, Bernkastel, Trier, Zell, Bonn, Nijmegen, and Kinderdijk.
  
• We are extending the trip with a few days in Bruges, Belgium afterwards.
  
• Note: We've been to Amsterdam, Lucerne, Mainz, etc. on previous trips to Europe and enjoyed them but wanted to visit new places, so that also helped us make up our minds. Good luck!

From June 2014's vacation, I'd add: (1) even if you've had a fairly recent comprehensive visit to Amsterdam, if you haven't visited the newly reopened, renovated Reijksmuseum, you would be sorry to mis this wonderful experience. If accumulated laudry is an issue, the Marriott is a perfect location and guests have access to washing machines/dryers (no well known!).

With a continuing emphasis on Northern Renaissance art (also in Strasbourg) we spent time in Ghent and Bruges: surprised at the difference: Ghent was wonderful (just the location, and the Marriott is right across a great seafood restaurant in an ancient building) with few tourists, while Bruges is the center for day tourists (thousands of them!) the Bruges train station could have been from Chicago (elevator and escalator to each track) -- loved the Gronigen museum (not to be missed if you love art) but the crush of tourists 22/24 June was a surprise.

DJ:)

We were on the Main the Rhine and the Danube. Tours were included with two options at each stop. Tour guides were from the ship along with a local and all were very knowledgable. We went to an optional dinner in Vienna.

I very much enjoyed sitting out on the deck chatting with other passengers and watching the beautiful scenery. There was also intermittent commentary from the bridge when we were passing something of note.We were there in July of 2006

Hello,

I see we have "grandmothers" from both Oregon and Florida. The above sounds like an improvement in the effort to provide optimal resources to the port tour experiences? Please indicate where (beginning, end), river cruise company, and number of nights. Following our general guidance, we less about food, as long as there are choices. Really don't care about provided alcohol, its clear that if we routinely drank coffee at breakfast and either water or iced tea at lunch and dinner, we paid for the drinks of others or just were great candidates to provide excess profits to Viking? Obviously, we were impressed with "new" ships and all of the ads on PBS (that add together 5-second impressions, the best from many different river cruises).

Obviously, any additional exxperience will do as you say, comparing price, ports, nights and when river cruising occurs. The "mystery" of Viking and ships being tied up and blocking your window and balcony is NOT a mystery, and easily could be explained by Viking: they either own or leave docks that accomodate one boat. The "other" boat is always from Viking and where you are positioned reflects the timing of boat arrivals and departures! Must happen every week and the only answer would be to have provision for two boats at these locations?

We like to mix experiences in a 3 or 4-week vacation, and will consider a France experience that ends in Marsailles joined with a Mediterranean cruise that starts in Barcelona. I figure a Marseilles/Barcelona one-way flight is easily obtained (not bus or train?). I guess some discussion of alternatives cruise companies is in order and some serious booklet requests (and then the junk mail increases by 30-40%!)

DJ:)

We chose Vantage because it was recommended by a friend. We chose Amsterdam to Budapest because it goes through more than one country. The Rhine is spectacular with vineyards and castles everywhere. The food was wonderful and the guides were excellent.

If you sailed on a river to Budapest, didn't you sail on the Danube? Haven't stopped to look at a map, but our trip was up the Rhine to Amsterdam. You know, this trip can be taken in seven days, where sailing is often completed at night (so your options on a warm summer day seldom includes sitting and watching the river banks go by, can be quite delightful.

It sort of gets back to how you handle ocean cruise ports: do you buy a ship's excursion by selecting from their descriptions, or do you read about the location and sometimes join a private trip offered on a Roll Call? Many people with me last June declared that they just never did cruise excursions any more, whether they planned a walk by themselves, or something that included previously arranged travel, etc. They went out with the information, at least, that they had obtained from like TripAdvisor and had a plan? As an example, we "followed" a wonderful young man off of the Viking bus at Basel into town (it seems like Viking has four new Mercedes coaches that drive up/down the Rhine for the southern half of the cruise -- and who know if a bus ride with stops to enter various building and vineyards would have been more enjoyable?). During the couple of tour hours he introduced himself as a German who had just joined a local orchestra who had no training in Swiss history, etc. It was quite interesting that I remember the first stop was an art museum, where we stopped for a discussion at the entrance courtyard (not an admission and a tour that would require our "leader" to know something about art history?). Its strange, but I remember most of the strange experiences we had on the boat, most only considered "strange" when we sat with (mainly UK passengers) experienced European travelers. It is quite strange what I remember and how these experiences are the opposite of what I expected on a boat with less than 200 passengers! I think that they mainly reflected a corporate climate in which Viking expects its passengers to be inexperienced and mainly focused on how much wine or beer comes with lunch and dinner and the purchase of upgraded whiskey from the bar. I understand that there are great discussions of food, dress, and drink on Cruise Critic, but for myself there is a difference between a winter's week in the Caribbean that gets you away from winter and cooking your own meals (you don't really care about where you are going, just like a warm winter's night and maybe a walk along the beach?) and your first (or second) day's visit to Athens and Istanbul? To be exact, I have no positive ideas about the corporate climate of Celebrity, and in general, once I knew that their call center was moved from Florida where the company is located to the Midwest (so that any personalized questions would never receive an accurate answer) I was pretty much set (problems understood, not to be solved!). I anticipated a comfortable ship with pretty good food and that's what I got. Our days at port were each designed by myself and my wife, and the more we planned, the better the experience! To answer my general question about river cruises, I guess that the participant needs to be given options for the morning or the day from which to choose and if you have "studied" before the vacation, did you learn anything from the guide? I guess that it can be quite transparent how a company goes about maximizing its profits. It seems that a river cruise company puts only as much money as minimally necessary in its various accounts (we tend to be sociable, and just talking to others at meal time is "entertaining"). On the other hand, we were approached about specialty dinning on the Constellation daily, and just smiled it off. Being in our late 60s, the volume and quality of food, given a range of choices and some interest in being at times moderate, we don't go (indeed, I've been a Type II diabetic for 20+ years, and often search out the salad bar and select sugar-free desserts that are routinely available. Rather than searching for previous tablemates for dinner, we usually select a early seating and find we can have pleasant conversation about our day's activities among the three other couples seated with us each night. (For myself, I got to compare what we did to a ship's tour from one couple, and actually had one opportunity to share our tour option with another couple.)

DJ

In retirement who was your river cruise with? I read your post but maybe I missed it....:)

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I was on the new Viking Gullveig Basel/Amsterdam June 13/20. My general question is are all river cruise companies alike? Maybe I have some insight as this company's owner (not a public company) is Norwegian and he most certainly watches his money and has his own ideas about who rides his boats (he spends money on advertising for sure) and the value of a "walking tour" for the inexperienced American traveler. As some support for this observation, I've looked at port visit activities on his new ocean vessel and they are similar. For example, a "visit" to London is described (from Southampton!) a "walk" -- I guess the "day" includes RT bus (?4 hours) and walking where -- shouldn't it at least be a tourist bus experience with 2 or 3 stops with entrance? In our Belgravia time before/after our 2012 British Isles cruise (Princess) we stayed at a B & B for 6 nights to allow one heavy tourism day with a company, and our own visits to Kew Gardens, Hampton Court, and the British Museum (see the 'sights" with the locals, a hope). Another river/ocean comparison, I thinik: when you sign in with an ocean cruise you have an idea of number of hours at each port (and specific date). Viking doesn't expect you to make any plans, so just provides ports, not specific times.

DJ

A very helpful discussion. Have taken travel more seriously since I have retired. In general, we consider any cruise a valuable alternative to moving in and out of hotel rooms, and very much look at where we will be going, instead of food options. This past summer 11 June/9 July we combined a 7-night river cruise (Basel/Amsterdam: don't let them tell you its 8-day -- they complete a tour every week [you leave Saturday evening, you arrive the following Saturday morning], a short land vacation by train to Ghent, Bruges, and two nights in Amsterdam, and a 12-night Norwegian Fjords cruise RT Amsterdam (ports: Stavanger, Olden, Molde, Alesund, Geiranger, Flam, Bergen, Oslo) and completed the final day from a base at our Schipohl airport hotel room with a brief visit to the university town of Leiden and to the wonderful National Archeology Museum there.

One of the questions is to what degree you want to be involved in planning what you see and do on any visit? We generally visit websites and read to come up with a plan, either accomplished by selecting a ship excursion or designing our own (and often inviting others to join). At the least, I'll read some resource such a Rick Steves. In general, problems with a boat or ship are what we want to avoid, and the quality of our days on land is our focus. So, if you are the kind of folks who do not do this, and are happy with a bus tour through Rome to "see the sights" or a "walking tour" from the boat to a Cathedral (the cathedral is pleasant and the walk gets you to appreciate your room and refreshments, then this really isn't an issue?

In our last vacation, our river and ocean experience was quite similar, in that our cruise was within Norway allowing town and city visits, travels quite a distance from the port, supplemental fjord cruises, etc. Both trips were rain-free (wonderful!). In general, we remember most fondly our port excursions (to the Atlantic Highway, to Trollstigen, to the Stalheim View, to the top of Mount Dalsnibba, museums in Oslo, and a shopping experience in Bergen) each day reflected the activities we wanted to do), our land excursion memories include two wonderful hotel stays and one "unique" and less-than preferred, wonderful museum visits at each location, as well as good and stressful train experiences. Our river cruise basically did not allow any personal choice and we were quite surprised with many of our fellow travelers, for whom this week was their first vacation to Europe! Most mornings we either road in buses to a walking tour or just walked off the boat to participate in a "walking tour." The goal might be a castle or a cathedral. Many locations were public and our young "guides" filled time with talking and keeping us together. Each of our "tours" did a good job of tiring us out. If you had read about ports before your vacation, you found in general it was an effort to deviate from the master plan (in which it appeared the primary goal of the cruise/program director to end up with the same group at the end, all in comparable health). Whether it was just a stop in a cathedral to see a world-famous piece of early renaissance art, or walking to a museum after lunch or staying in a town to visit a museum (and finding only high-calorie cookies and coffee available until dinner on return) every component proclaimed "stay with the group." I'm afraid that our river cruise experience was very similar to a 5-day bus tour RT Madrid that we took in 2012. I had made the "mistake" of reading Rick Steves for each of the towns/cities we visited in the south of Spain. Each hotel was lovely, each meal was bland (never anything the slightest bit "Spanish"), and the tours ranged from wonderful (Cordoba, Alhambra) to perfectly terrible (Toledo and others), often missing any location with an admission (major cathedrals like the burial of Ferdinand and Isabella).

Would be very interested in hearing from people who have sailed with different river cruise companies and can comment on the port excursion options. Thanks,

DJ

Do you mind answering a few questions?

How many people were in your group? What type of vehicle did you use? How long was the tour (we only have 9 hours)? What was the cost?

Thanks in advance.

(1) Suffice it to say, this was the most successful cruise we have experienced in the last six years.

(2) I am very conservative in planning excursions and most transportation companies are even more conservative. First, your primary objectives should also be available from the ship, so you know you have the time. Our ship offered a visit to Trolstigen from both Molde (800/600) and Alesund (0700/1000) we extended their offerings (visited stave church at Kverness from Molde with return to Molde overlook with travel both north and south on the Atlantic Highway -- unfortunately for us, the Atlantic that day was as smooth as glass! Our adventure from Alesund also included the overlook and option to hike back to the ship -- but then the ship was at the dock til 1000pm!

(3) My objective was to find local drivers with vans -- if you find any, make the information available. I could only find coach services and a variety of online websites that were excellent (Stavanger, Geiranger, Flam) in which these coaches provided many of the options during the season and you could reserve/purchase by the seat. In this way we reached the top of Mt. Dalsnibba and visited the view at the rear of the Stalheim Inn and then on to the dock at Gudvagen (Google the pictures for Gudvagen and Stalheim View -- adding the flower garden at the rear). I'm not quite certain if I'd ever repeat this process again, but quite early on in late winter we developed a list of around 20/30 active/eager companions who provided cabin numbers and email addresses.

Hope this is helpful and gives you some ideas. My most favorite European cruise has been Barcelona/Venice and I hope to take my two oldest grandsons with us in the next two summers. Using drivers with 8-seat vans, and doing some preparation for locations like the Forum and Pompeii, plan to have a great time (maybe find other 3-generation groups for small buse experiences in Turkey and Greece?).

DJ:)

It might be a challenge as some of the streets are laid with cobblestone. The sidewalks are narrow but most are accessible for walker/wheelchairs/scooters. The train is not handicapped accessible. There is a small step up to the seating on the train.

This question is difficult to answer, because many people require assistance such as these for a continuum of disability: most common would be lack of stamina for any length of walk or instability or poor balance. My thought is, what does the friend do to get onto the electric scooter or go from a sitting position to assistance from a walker? If there is adequate upper body strength and coordination to stand up and reach a riding position, then there might be enough to step onto a tourist train car with some assistance? The most disabled who use a wheel chair could require a bus that has a platform to move the occupant and wheel chair from street level to bus level. Our recent Norwegian cruise included a couple where the husband tended to his handicapped spouse: longer distances included him pushing a wheel chair, but she was able to transition (with his help) from sitting to standing, as well as stepping up into a van or coach.

An aside, on 1 July we experienced Trollveggen and Trollstigen (and the Valldal river rapids walk) from Alesund with I-Cruiser's recommendation. We went through Nettbuss Alesund (thanks to Arnie, our pleasant, informative, and helpful driver) and even wired funds (a first!): although a first visit to Trollveggen (from the north) was "marred" by low clouds, the subsequent Trollstigen view point with breaks in clouds with their movement, was marvelous! (Although our Nettbuss drive from Geiranger to Mt. Dalsnibba was more of a altitude challenge, our visit at Trollstigen was considerably longer. ) We took a loop from Alesund, never backtracking, and ended at the Alesund viewpoint (some took a walk back, we had a 12-hour port visit there) before an informative drive back to the dock. What a wonderful day! Also enjoyed the strawberry fields and taste of fruit that benefited from 12-hour days. Hope that I-Cruiser has/had a most rewarding summer cruise experience (and that the Russians were no worse in their hospitality and the Estonian's are still smiling and coping with any invasion worries!

DJ:)

Greetings!

Just picking my head up from a returning jet lag, bronchitis (not completely resolved), inner ear disease, and unfortunately a minor neurological condition requiring a 3-day diagnostic hospitalization (pretty much resolved). In contrast, our active (for us) June 11/July 9 vacation experienced significant rain on only the last day!

By way of background, we are both teachers, enjoy planning and reading about where we are to visit, and have now a habit of summer and winter vacations. We often have included a ocean cruise with one or two city holidays, often renting an apartment. In this way, our time in London, Barcelona, Paris, Amsterdam, etc. allows some in-depth experience of a city -- not only visits to museums and Citysightseeing tourist bus rides, but visits to the local grocery store to pickup breakfast and dinner options and the occasional lunch among regular citizens, etc.

My global comparison of our three basic parts of our vacation follow (I'll try to post only what I feel are the most important.)

I. River Cruise (Basel/Amsterdam): We scheduled our own air travel (what is this that the majority had the company arrange this and allowed for not even an evening's sleep to allow for appreciation of all river cruise details: we located the lodging (Hotel D) on TripAdvisor with a reduced price for the evening that included breakfast the next morning). The night before we walked out to a touristy restaurant and ate street side (a quite plain meal, but more expensive than a wonderful one canal side in Ghent Belgium: Switzerland is expensive). I finally concluded after talking to many of my fellow river cruisers, that they bragged on how they didn't need to do any planning whatsoever! We even sat several dinners with a delightful couple where the man was a retired senior pilot. He described their flight over to Switzerland, and I was impressed in how his experience represented a most indirect effort -- most likely taking advantage of discounts to the river cruise company. I was also impressed at how many couples told us that this week was their first experience in Europe and that they planned to return home directly after the cruise! Our position, in contrast, is that the inconvenience and expense of transAtlantic air travel merits at least a 2-4 week experience.

Do not expect that a comparison of 1,000 couples (ocean cruise) to 100 couples (river cruise) means that the experience can be more customized in that staff will focus on your interests/needs. Of course, this is in comparison to our ocean cruises where we select and more often actually develop our 6 to 8-hour port days. When it comes to food, for example, many simple diets can be accommodated on a cruise ship simply from choices (including low-salt and low-fat) and to a diet that controls carbohydrates (visit the salad bar, mix your own dressing; select a simple protein and stick to green vegetables, not rice and potatoes) indeed, sugar-free deserts are routinely offered. My experience with food was that breakfast was my favorite as I could focus on options good for me as well as an attraction to fresh fruit and the occasional pastry! Although it seemed that the average age of our group easily exceeded 60, there was no emphasis on healthy options. On the first night I was singled out with a wonderful fresh fruit mousse, but this did not predict future evenings. Perhaps meals on a river cruise in France would be different than one in Germany, I don't know. Obviously, personalized service is difficult when server changes nightly (you can have someone different every night).

A river cruise is characterized by included trips off of the boat: if you are the kind that reads about a location and then has interests, these trips will not be easy to just "go along" with. I found, even the alteration of a cathedral visit to include a stop in front of a famous artwork was an irritation to the guide (90% were very young and not trained). Alterations to limit difficult walking often avoided important experiences, and no effort was made to use local tourist "trains" for transport. Indeed, I found the majority of our "trips" were designed to be the most cost-efficient. With some effort, we visited art museums (excellent experience) in Colmar, Strasbourg, and Cologne and in Koblenz (opting out of possible negative consequences of a visit to Marksburg Castle) we found a wonderful inexpensive ride with a view over the Rhine just steps away from where the boat was docked (consider it). My impression was that there were not sufficient manpower to allow anything that deviated with "the plan" and that everyone fell into "the plan." My thought is that the Basel/Amsterdam route allows for much greater resources in culture, entertainment, and tourism, but if the majority of those you serve are not experienced travelers, you have met your objective. It seems that I had experienced a new ship (we in the US like "new") and had been influenced by a wonderful advertising campaign! The specifics will be communicated to Viking should they be curious.

II. Land travel: Amsterdam/Ghent/Brugge/Amsterdam (6 nights): In general, the quality of these days were my responsibility. The walk from the long boat to the train station (with our new suitcases) was not a challenge. We found orientation/location of correct track etc. to have been learned from past travel. However, we had a minor pickpocket experience while entering Thalys to Antwerp (should have been more alert when entry to car was suddenly blocked and a dozen of us just stood close together outside the car). Fortunately, we both were wearing our cards and 95% of cash around our necks and under our clothes! I found that even though our cases were smaller, they still were too heavy (everywhere young men were helpful), but that the spaces provided for luggage (above seat) only accommodated much smaller cases (not allowing for our upcoming cruise) and that the best combination for train travel was a small rolling case and a backpack. General conclusions: Antwerp Central is a wonderful train station; the Ghent Marriott is wonderful and dinner along the canal an experience (just across from the Marriott); art in Ghent and especially the museum in Brugge were wonderful; I was not prepared for the contrast between Ghent and Brugge train stations: in Ghent only an escalator up -- only cement stairs to get luggage to ground transportation, while Brugge has escalator/elevator to each set of tracks. Brugge is a day tourist machine!

Amsterdam: we stayed (with points) at the Marriott just steps from the Reijksmuseum (following renovation, the experience is wonderful), providing for those staying washers and dryers, and local dinning options (including canalside visited by locals) within 1-2 blocks. Our vacation ended with a days trip from Schiphol (evening at the Sheraton, allowing train travel in the rain to Leiden and inexpensive meals in the airport). We have found memories of the National Archeological Museum, once we found it in Leiden and our time spent in Schiphol (the current horrible Air Malaysia airline shoot down is so sad) rounded out our month abroad.

III. Norwegian Fjord Cruise RT Amsterdam: Our 12-night cruise was marred by a first-day interaction in which the CD criticized Cruise Critic at the well-attended meeting held for CC members! (We consider that insufficient effort is made by ocean cruise lines and river cruise lines to select these people!) However, as we knew our days (8 of them) on land would be only as good as our planning and we lucked out in having no rain days! In addition, unlike the Rhine Cruise, we made systematic effort to understand each location/region in Norway, and made use of independent tour resources, tourism websites, and commercial transport companies. I would say that our cruise line (Celebrity) has made the decision to to offer these cruises from Amsterdam next year -- so I am very happy we decided to obtain our mountain/water/snow experience in Norway rather than Switzerland. Very impressed with the country, the people, and the society/culture.

Certainly open to answering specific questions, and am sufficient time after them to have some degree of objectivity (perhaps) and enjoy contributing to the quality of the travel experiences of others.

DJ:)

Wow, time for me to post here next cruise rather than offer my 2 cents to the less-experienced (that I will nonetheless do anyway):

Just spent 12 nights Norwegian Fjords on Constellation RT Amsterdam: Unbelievable with consistently good weather: had starboard sweet 16 balcony.

(1) Are you concerned about ship movement? We have found personally that we go for price/view over such concerns as we have learned this is not a subtle issue for us: if ship movement is sufficient to bring on discomfort, doesn't make any difference where we are located. Didn't take an aft cabin on this vessel only because all aft balconies have been reclassified to include amenities we don't care to purchase (quite a shame).

(2) Have in last two years inhabited an aft cabin on Princess British Isles and last winter 8168 on Jewel of the Seas RT San Juan. If you are doing a warm/calm location for winter, an aft balcony (with cabins above/below) definitely adds to the experience, allowing you to spend some stary nights on adjoining lounges! Also found balcony a definite for Mediterranean cruise. As said above, locate an aft balcony with only one neighbor reduces by 50% the possibility of problems of any kind with a neighbor? Our Jewel of the Seas had only one adjacent balcony (to our left) we were surprised (my issue) that the Jewel has only two banks of elevators (not the 3 we have experienced on all of our ships) and the "walk to the elevators" from the aft position was significant -- but definitely worth the walk! Snagged what had been talked up on CC as the second most desirable balcony (for the money) on this vessel by making a very early reservation (in August for following December). Given the choice between Celebrity and RC (same port/month) even as a stockholder, would definitely go with Celebrity, if only for the quality of the dinning service. Best of luck.

DJ

I think it will be useful for those of us who experienced this event to wait now and see if we hear anything else from Celebrity. Everyone should understand that Celebrity knows quite clearly who registered for this event and were sent invitations. I would suggest that only Celebrity can find out the reason for this experience and that they can decide what kind of information (if any) they will provide to those involved.

On the other hand, it is quite interesting (and stimulating) to discuss the nature of Trip Advisor and Cruise Critic. The underlying corporation obviously makes considerable money and at the same time provides some wonderful support/service, often using people like us as volunteers (have thoroughly enjoyed writing a review from December's San Juan vacation and plan to follow through from this summer as well).

I suggest that, as they say, one swallow doesn't make a summer and indeed this can be an isolated event (as a RC stockholder I can hope so). All who have participated in this discussion will take away from it whatever they chose -- for myself, I'm quite interested in the nature of this balance between corporate promotion/sales and support to the individual traveler. This balance is present in all of their business activities, starting from the basics of an ad for a hotel to the posting of favorable and problematic reviews by those who have spent the night!

DJ

Other than this CD, who I believe most have said made an inappropriate comment, who else from Celebrity has said that they don't want CC business? I don’t know, I’m now starting to think that some are protesting too much. Not in any way saying the incident didn't happen as stated, but really wonder what happened prior to the time the meet and greet started or during the meet and greet.

Unless you attended this specific meeting or are an organizational consultant with Celebrity, what is the goal for your quest for other interpretations? This experience happened -- this experience represented the total meeting: it was not a brief quip taken out of context, the CD had our undivided attention and took no questions/comments. The only content we remember starting with JC's arrival was a discussion of how CC is having a negative effect on the cruise industry to CC members who were motivated enough to show up. A secondary discussion was about how CC members discuss issues not using their actual names and how this was problematic and didn't "we" want to know who some people were? Obviously we would be concerned. Three names were put forth, two of us were there and foolishly raised our hands! It didn't take previous experience with the East German secret police (Stasi) to become unwilling to express any opinion (therefore this outpouring a couple of weeks later).

As I now see it, my possible reactions to this experience include: (1) avoid CC meetings onboard; (2) avoid generally useful postings, such as those who identify internet alternatives and comments from other sources, such as TA or just readings from previous passengers, and (3) taking the vast majority of useful planning information off-site. Obviously RC does not remain my favorite option, all other things being equal. Truthfully, since 2008 this has been my only negative experience directly related to cruise line management. We were quite lucky to have consistently good weather and sea conditions and the itinerary was remarkable. Interesting that we were on the last of these planned voyages.

DJ