RDC1

2 hours ago, jagsfan said:

I don’t understand why, if they’re claiming you never paid the deposit, you were booked without it. The whole promo sounds pretty shaky to me. 

Keep in mind that this is not a normal booking.  The terms are set by the Station Casinos.  If they had booked under the original terms they would have paid a $100 per person deposit that would be refunded on board as OBC.  However when they upgraded they would have provided more money then the required deposit, but apparently only the amount of the upgrade (none of which is refunded as OBC), but did not pay the additional $100.  

I expect the deposit is to make sure that people dont accept the offer and then not show up.  Since they upgraded they technically had more more at risk then the original deposit so no one caught it.

53 minutes ago, Loonbeam said:

It seems that while the buildings were badly damaged the power equipment itself may not have been (not officially confirmed but reports indicate the generator itself did not suffer anything other than cosmetic and needing some lines replaced).  Or at least not total loss of capacity, which is what I originally thought.

 

Have not heard if water system itself sustained damage but that can be worked around more easily.

 

 

The generator is actually a backup.  If you look at detailed pictures of Princess Cay there are power lines entering the facility and there is a transformer located above the little market area of a kind that would be needed for commercial step down, but not for locally generated power..  After all Princess Cay is not located more than a mile from Bannerman  Town which is certainly on island power.

I don't believe that the article said that Princess would be using HMC.  Though some Carnival ships that were scheduled for Princess Cay might go to HMC, such as one did a couple of days ago.

Not a major point though since Princess has now said that Princess Cay will reopen Feb 4.

On 1/30/2019 at 3:05 PM, Loonbeam said:

I agree, we have no idea what resources Princess/Carnival is willing to throw at this, nor do we know how bad the damage does (Princess corporate is probably getting boots on ground just about now). 

 

  However, based on past experience, they don't seem to consider it a priority when a location or port goes down (let's be honest, if it was that important for revenue they would put in a dock, given the number of times its missed due to weather).  My assessment is based on how they have handled similar situations in the past, plus the fact there are enough options in the area to avoid a sense or urgency.  I don't see them paying for disaster relief levels of operations, I certainly could be wrong.

 

Private Islands are less about revenue and more about control  (especially in the days of beverage packages where per-drink revenue is much less) in the sense that they control the entire experience without sharing monies with or having to deal with local tour providers, etc.    They make some money sure, but when you consider food and facilities are generally included, not that much as one might think.

 

My expectation would be, if you are schedule for Princess Cay between now and say, June at least, likely August, expect an itinerary change and have ideas for what you could do at other alternative ports to snap up excursions when avail.

 

 

 

 

Seems they will be back in service Feb 4.  Far less then even the 30 days I estimated. Amazing what they can do when they need to.

1 hour ago, schittenden said:

I can't validate because as the poster after you indicated, when you book it, it is just included in one line item. The upgrade charged and other information are displayed on a Princess website. They are not on the flyer or email. It just shows $X as the date for a balcony cabin and then a lower line shows the OBC. 

Didn't you print out a travel summary, when you printed your boarding pass?  It has a full breakdown of all money paid.

Since you have no way to validate you certainly cannot prove what was said on the call to be incorrect.  

So you have two choices accept that the person told you the truth or assume that they didn't, hold a grudge and never sail Princess again.  Without any evidence to the contrary I would accept what they said in the call.

You could call them again and ask for a print out and break down of funds paid.

2 hours ago, sfaaa said:

Nothing moves until the insurance company gives the green light.

Do you know for sure that they are not self insured?  This most likely does not reach the value of the deductable on their co insurance policy.  Even if it does most commercial policy for this size company require them to document, but not wait for an insurance adjuster.

On your phone call the person stated that you had not sent in the $100 per person deposit.  So if you go back to your original payment, the amount you paid should have been $100 per person deposit plus the amount for upgrade to balcony, add third person and vacation protection.  They indicated that while you paid the upgrade and vacation protection amounts you did not pay the original $100 deposit.  If you kept copies of your paperwork you should be able to validate pretty easily.

If the information they gave you is valid their is no $100 OBC because the deposit (basically a $100 charge to be refunded as OBC on the original offer before any upgrades) was never paid.

3 hours ago, BeeMinor said:

 

I certainly don't disagree that the generational wage gap and wealth inequality tied to the increased burden of student loans and the rise in housing costs, among other things, exists and is problematic. But based on my Instagram feed alone I can promise you that people in their 20s and 30s are able to go on vacation, including people with student loan debt and jobs that don't require an MBA. Even if you limit Edge affordability to the top 20% of households from the list posted above I believe that gives you a potential market of about 15 million Americans, not counting people in their (gasp) 40s and up who might enjoy the ship's vibe. It's not like you can't enjoy a certain design style or music or art or food or whatever because you remember what a dial-up modem sounds like.

 

Still not sure that means the ship is worth what X is charging though. We'll be on board in a few weeks and will find out--we booked in March 2017 so we're not paying the premium fare, and we would not have booked in at the $5k+ pp our sky suite is now priced at. 

Yes, however the topic is "Edge Overpriced?" so when you consider the relative cost of Edge compared to other cruising options, the apparent focus on the much younger demographic, potentially alienating much of the existing passenger base, coupled with the relative income of that demographic, the build of additional ships along the design of the Edge (not just one ship they have to fill), it does seem that Edge is in fact over priced, even if it is successful in attracting the new demographic.

1 hour ago, BeeMinor said:

 

Digging in a little bit that average income is calculated for 16-34-year-olds. I would expect the incomes of high school and college students to make it artificially low. And it's not like X has to appeal to the average person in their 20s or 30s. They need to appeal to the relatively high-earning person who takes a vacation once or twice a year. As a 38-year-old I'm technically months too old to be a millennial, but I know plenty of people my age and in their earlier 30s who could afford to sail the Edge at current prices. Whether they would want to sail the Edge at current prices is a completely different question. If X is trying to draw in non-cruisers in their 30s for a Caribbean cruise, they're competing with getting an AirBnb in St. Lucia or booking at a beach resort in Tulum, and even factoring in food, drinks, etc.--that's less than the Edge. People I know in their 30s who do cruise do so because it's fun and it's easy and it offers value, but I'm not sure that the value proposition is there on the Edge.

Pew research, where the numbers come from use 18 to 35 so post high school.

There are still the facts that millennial income lags previous generations by 20% at similar age, and as a group have the highest debt levels of any of the generations.  

That is not to say that there not successful people in the group, but over all the group is not doing well compared to previous groups at that age.

I did look up the 50 percentile income level by age covering that span

Age 22  19,000

25          30,000

30          40,000

35          45,000

At the 80 percentile you have 

Age 25      50,000

30              67,000

35              81,000

90 Percentile

Age 25    70,000

30            90,000

35           105,000

3 hours ago, BPCW said:

 

They may make less but generally they have less expenses as they tend to wait longer to get married, to buy a house, and definitely to have kids.  So maybe they make less (adjusted for inflation) but they may have MORE disposable income.  

Not really because they are also far more burdened with debt, primarily college loans then previous generations.

The other question is when one notes the 35k average income if they are going to pay higher rates when they cruise or select more lower price brands such as Royal or NCL.

2 hours ago, TardisDance said:

You do realize Millenials can be as young as 23 and as old as 38, right?  It's a very large age range to generalize. 

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-average-millennial-income-4171296

A couple of highlights from the article millennials make 20% less than did boomers at the same age (adjusted).

More millennials are in poverty line then other generations.

plus high debt levels, low home ownership rates, etc.

Boomers and other generations also covered long periods, but one must start somewhere when slicing demographics.

1 hour ago, JFontaine said:

The difference is (on most airlines), if you don't fly, you get to use your ticket again, within a year of purchase (minus a $200 fee (although fee sometimes waived for sickness, funeral, etc.) and the fare differential, if any).  So not a total loss.  I would take that deal gladly from the cruise line. 

However, it is still the same on airlines you must fly to get points, if you buy a ticket and cannot use it no points.  Hotels you must stay to get points, buy a prepaid room that you cannot use, no points.  Same practice for cruise lines points are not given at time of purchase, cruise must be completed.

3 hours ago, adonisr said:

Both Carnival Pride and Elation are at Half Moon Cay this morning.

The schedule was only for the Elation today, the Pride was supposed to be a Princess Cay tomorrow.  However the Nieuw Statendam is scheduled for Half Moon Cay tomorrow so they must have shifted the Pride schedule to avoid conflict with that ship.

9 minutes ago, Host CJSKIDS said:

 

I saw that, that's why I wasn't quite sure how he could say anything. 

 

Hopefully the investigation gets finished quickly and they determine why it started and the insurance adjuster gets there quickly so they can start rebuilding the area and ships can head back quickly.

For a corporate event like this I would expect that it will fall under self insurance level, below where co insurance kicks in.  Even if not an adjuster does usually not get involved, (not like a home or small business policy), usually the claim with the co-insurance company is not even made until all of the costs are in and it is determined that the damages have reached sufficient level.  There are rules concerning the documentation that the company needs to support the claim but not a matter of the company sending out an adjuster.

  Any delay would more likely be a matter of cause investigation.

2 hours ago, hllwdcruiser said:

 

Thanks for the link. Interesting that at the end of the article he is estimating only three weeks.

Not surprising.  After thinking about it, they could bring in a trailer mounted desalination plant, and trailer mounted generator and be up and running, even while working on the buildings. All they would need to do is to connect them up to the existing water system and power distribution system.  That would just require cleanup, and some plumbing and electrical work to get up and running, while work is taking place on the permanent replacement buildings.

2 minutes ago, Coral said:

So a Royal or Regal plus on other ship probably won't work.

No unless they have a lot of unused capacity.  They also seem to be keen to not mix Carnival and HAL ships there at the same time. 

2 minutes ago, Coral said:

They used to handle multiple smaller ships. Not sure about large ships. I haven't kept up with HAL. Maybe they have expanded.

Their current schedule has a maximum of around 4600 there at one time.  The busiest on the schedule is with the Nieuw Statendam and the Konigsdam there on the same day.  The only time with two ships is when there are two HAL ships there.  Many of the days are already filled with Carnival ships.

6 minutes ago, STREETKING said:

 

 

I believe Half Moon Cay will handle multiple ships.

Yes, but it has multiple ships already a few days each week.  

50 minutes ago, Mike45LC said:

I think RDCI is right about the time needed to get the infrastructure back up and running.  In fact, he is allowing Princess far more time to get this running than I would!  Not counting restoring the burned trees and shrubs and other foliage, I'd allow 4 to 6 weeks to get up and running.

 

Less than a week to get the four building pads cleaned up.  Cleaning up the rest of the area can be done while construction is being done.  They probably have brought in large diesel generators already.  Small ATV vehicles in a day or two.  Power washers, whatever else in a couple of days.  

 

Week Two should be enough to pour new concrete slabs for the four buildings -- assuming that the old slabs need to be removed and re-poured.  How large were the footprints of the four buildings?  I am guessing that the tool shed, maintenance shed and generator shed weren't larger than 500 sq feet each, and the water plant was under 2,500 sq feet.  Bring in the rebar and the concrete and get it poured quickly.  (You can use sea water for mixing concrete.  www.theconstructioncivil.org/sea-water-for-mixing-concrete)  

 

Week Three:  Bring in prefab buildings, get them thrown up in under a week.  We are talking four small buildings, in a community in which there should be minimal red-tape because of the influence of the builder as a major taxpayer and income generator.  

 

And Princess does have connections with freighters and tugs, and can get materials and equipment moved in and out pretty easily.  It isn't like a small homeowner needing to bring in heavy equipment.  It is Princess Cruise Line, for Heaven's sake!

 

Week Four:  Bring the ships back in!

 

No asbestos abatement.  No other nonsense.  Just get 'er done!

 

You can fit a 100,000 gallon per day desalination unit in a 3 axle tandem trailer (14X30) (you can buy one off the shelf in that configuration) figure water storage is in outdoor tanks so the building size for the water system is much smaller than 2500.

1 hour ago, oskidunker said:

They using Holland America’s island for the time being Half Moon Cays. 

They can use Holland America's Island for some cruises, but not others when it is already schedule for another ship.

1 minute ago, Loonbeam said:

I think you strongly understimate the logistics of getting replacements, easily available yes, but easily available on that island, including skilled labor (which also means housing), not so much.   Not to mention the procurement process, etc. 

 

Lets take one minor logistical challenge, pouring concrete.  There is likely no power nor potable water at the site, so all concrete will have to be trucked in.   How many concrete trucks do you think there are on Elutherea that are available on short notice?

 

To do the cleanup and rebuild itself, temporary power generation and structures need to be brought in just to stage that, which may incur approvals, etc.

 

Sure, anything can be speeded up to a point by throwing money at it, but there's a certain amount of logistics that can't be compressed.  I stand by my assessment that 3 months would be next to impossible unless there is less damage than feared, and 6 months even a stretch and throwing a lot of money at it.  And I don't see Carnival paying accelerated rates, there's no real reason for them to, they have other options.

 

 

Depend upon what you are willing to spend.  I think you might be over estimating the size and scope of the buildings.  Take for example desalination.  I have used AMPAC as a supplier.  They make a desalination unit, pre-assembled, that can product up to 24000 gallons per day that comes on a pallet that can be dropped into place by helicopter (I have done so). Technically foundations not needed.  They usually have them in stock.  Most water used is for restrooms and food prep cleanup, plus some rinse off showers that that should be adequate, if not bring in 2.  Surplus can be tanked during days when ship not in port.

I expect that Carnival will pay accelerated rates because the options all have negative impacts.

Ok you say 3 to 6 months and I  say that you will have ships calling there in less than 60 days. Easy to see in a few months who is correct.

1 hour ago, Loonbeam said:

From a practical standpoint:

 

Assuming the generator and water system are total losses (likely, based on reports), the following will need to happen before the venue reopens:

 

1>  The area will need to be cleared, made safe and possibly a fire/arson inspection performed.

2>  An insurance appraisal will need to be made

3>  The damaged equipment will need to be disassembled and removed

4>  New equipment will need to be brought in, most likely from the US via Nassau and likely via ship (the alternative would be very expensive cargo flights) - this is not equipment a cruise ship could bring easily as there is no dock for offloading, so would be a cargo ship to North part of island then truck

5>  New enclosures need to be built for the equipment, the equipment installed (specialized labor) and then the entire grid tested

6>  Local authorities will need to approve inspection.

 

The odds of this happening within less than 3 months are astronomical, even 6 months will be a reach to get back to operation (They could probably operate on bottled water but without power...)

 

Now, if the damage is less, this all changes. 

 

If I am Princess, I would look at A> upgrading while rebuilding (longer but more efficient) or just shifting to one of the other Carnival affiliated locations and closing PC.     I suspect we will know in a month or two.

 

 

Time = Money

Have seen far larger and more complex facilities restored and operating in much smaller amounts of time.  Everything in those facilities (Generators, Waster desalination plants, etc.) are  easily available.  The biggest delay would be any red tape on the part of local government and red tape.  I would suspect that CCL corp would be self insured below a specific dollar value and the replacement cost is probably below that value. Once they have the OK for cleanup the only thing limiting the speed is how much money they want to spend. Bring in enough workers and they could have it up and running in 30 days, largely depend on what they are willing to spend and local government (in Bahamas I would not expect much local government delay the country gets too much money from cruise lines). Cleanup, pour new foundations, replace some pipes and power distribution near the burned buildings. drop in the new equipment while the buildings are being constructed (which could be prefab).

I would expect that the company has a disaster recovery/business interruption plan that normal would include the vendors and contractors necessary to do such work and supply replacements.

49 minutes ago, chefchick said:

Clearly the OP didn’t enjoy many aspects of his HAL Cruise and prefers Princess.  This forum is called Cruise “Critic” for a reason....but I certainly hope no one would take one’s person bad experience as a critique of any entire cruise line without giving it try themselves....I am always shocked when I hear someone say they are now considering not sailing xyz because of this one bad review (or even a few bad reviews)...especially of a new vessel.

 

Again, it’s only one person’s opinion....take it for what it is.

During the last year I have sail on HAL, Princess, Celebrity, Royal Caribbean.  On any of those cruises I could have selected a couple of items and used them for the basis of a cruise line gives bad impression type article, just as I could have taken a few things from each for an cruise line excels type article. Guess it just depends upon ones person view about which type gets written.  All of them have strong  and weak points. One advantage of having several with different focus, but still largely the same, to choose between.

5 hours ago, satxdiver said:

 

If the carts have warming plates then they have to have a power source since open flames are not allowed on a ship.  Just saying as an engineer.

I have seen warming plates used in hotels that are stone, heated in ovens, and used to keep food warm during delivery using their thermal mass.  Just saying not all ways of keeping food warm have to have a power source.

12 minutes ago, land lover said:

 

Interesting......was it large??? because, for years my DH  has always brought his and I bring a curling iron ....however since 911 we now bring these in our carry-ons don't like luggage being opened by the airlines. 

No actually just a small travel one.  At that time the person confiscating it stated that they were not allowed and that one was provided in the cabin.  Now at that time they were listed on the banned list.  They are not on the list now so Princess apparently does now allow them.