e2011

This is a cruise forum!

Cruising is fun. Especially on Disney!

I just have to give kudos to NCL for coming up with the Haven concept. Home run! We go on many different lines and I have to say the Haven is the best way to cruise for us. We are booked on our first MSC cruise this winter in a Yacht Club suite which is supposed to be similar to Haven. We will see.

You should not have any problem. They made this change on our Getaway cruise last week and it was good. We were the only ship at Costa Maya.

Good choice! The Fantasy is fantastic!

Disney has now placed a rope "fence" with signs showing photos of alligators and snakes. Does this make a 2 year old any more safe? He certainly can't read the signs.

Yes because now the parents have been made aware of the danger. I agree that if a parent reads the new gator sign and still lets a child go in the water Disney is not liable. But in this particular case the parents were not warned about the gators. Also if you read the Orlando paper it is coming out that Disney did have a near miss with a gator and a child in the past but chose not to put warning signs. They have documented reports and video of people feeding gators at the lake yet they did not even post a "Do not feed the wildlife" signs which is what they have at Animal Kingdom! The new signs they just put up are perfect. In the future they will not be liable. But in this case they are.

Yes it is. I fully agree.

 

And now actions have been taken to make a once in 28 years incident the persons responsibility of even entering the water not possible without "legally" disobeying the signs and fence.

 

It is tragic.

 

Money will not help the family grieve, or replace the child, so why you feel it is deserved is beyond me.

 

ex techie

I understand. Its the way the system works. When you are a company and you are negligent and someone gets hurt, you pay. Does it replace the child. Of course not. Will it help the family pay for mental health counseling for the rest of their lives? Yes. I will not debate weather or not Disney is negligent. I think they are and some others don't Everyone is entitled to their opinion. From a pure legal perspective, I have already addressed that issue. We can all agree its tragic. As a side note, the golf course where I play regularly has "Caution, Alligators and Poisonous Snakes" signs at every water feature and at the 1st hole.

Just remember, the Grand Floridian beach resort opened in 1998, and this is the first instance of this happening in 28 years.

 

ex techie

once is too much.

Well' date=' you are partially right. But according to the sheriff, the child was in 12 inch deep water at the time of the attack. Since the average height of a 2 year old boy is 36 inches, that's not "wading in ankle deep water." 12 inches on me (an adult female) is mid calf. On a 2 year old, it would be more like mid thigh.

 

You are correct that Disney will keep this out of court, and in our litigation prone society, there will probably be a check written. And as a result, we'll all pay a little more for our WDW vacations...and the family will have money, but no child. No one wins except the lawyer who collects a fat fee.[/quote']

 

True. Nothing can replace the child.

No' date=' most northerners would not equate "no swimming" with "watch out for alligators." But does it matter? "No Swimming" should mean "Don't go in the water." It isn't my job to question why when the property owner puts a sign up that says, in essence, "don't go in the water."

 

No, the child isn't responsible. The parent who presumably can read is. Of course they will insist that they didn't see the sign, and considering that it was after dark, that might be a reasonable excuse. Did they read any of the info they got when they checked in at the resort? Did it say anything in there about not swimming in the lake? But ultimately, does it matter?

 

As to Disney writing a check...because a customer didn't follow the rules? How much is a 2 year old "worth?" If that sounds crass, I'm sorry. The bottom line is that no amount of money can make up for the loss of a child. But I can't hold Disney responsible for a parent's ignorance.

 

Yes, there will now be signs that say "Beware of alligators, snakes, motor oil, bacteria, and anything else that can exist in the water" just like the sign at Castaway Cay that lists a zillion kinds of wildlife that can hurt you while swimming in the ocean. And they might block off the lagoon from the beach. But that is a legal issue. They already said "No Swimming." The next time, no one can contend that they didn't know WHY they couldn't swim in the icky, murky water. Disney did not place alligators in the water (or snakes or bacteria) or do anything to encourage them to be there. They exist in the water in Florida. There might be some level of liability if, as one poster suggested, this child was grabbed from the shore by a gator. But that's not what happened. The child was violating a posted sign.

 

I'm sorry for the loss the parents are enduring. No check from Disney will make that "better."[/quote']

 

Have to disagree with you. They obeyed the sign. The child was NOT swimming. You are coming off kinda of harsh. A good attorney will ask two questions to a jury.... would a reasonable and prudent person expect their child could be eaten by an alligator if the child waded in ankle deep water at the beach that Disney created on the lake. And were there any warning signs about dangerous wildlife? $3-$5 million easy considering emotional devastation. When I say Disney is responsible I am only looking at from a potential jury trial in a litigation. I have some experience in this area. I can assure you there is no way on earth Disney will go to trial over this incident. Big company vs. parents that lost a child at the Happiest Place on Earth. The publicity to Disney would be devastating. They will write the check, change the signs and build the beach barriers. And they should write the check because they knew about the gators since 1971 and took a gamble that their gator extraction efforts would keep this from happening. They were wrong. There should be the same standard to notify people of the wildlife in the lake just as they do at Castaway Cay. The fact they do it on the island and not at WDW would actually demonstrate a breech of their own standards.

I would not interpret a "no swimming" sign as "beware of alligators". I was just at a resort in So. Carolina that had signs that said "Avoid lagoon, may be alligators."

 

I feel very badly for this family and their tragedy. It's a sad reminder that you can never know what life has in store for you.

I agree. Most people would not equate "No Swimming" with "Caution, Alligators." I would guess the vast majority of tourists at Disney would think the no swimming sign was because the water is so dirty. This boy was in 12 inches of water at the beach side movie night. That was confirmed by the Sheriffs office. Today Disney said they will be posting Alligator warning signs all over the resort where there are bodies of water. I also suspect they will put retaining walls along the lake at their "beach" areas to deter people form getting near the water. For those who don't know alligators hunting tactics, that boy could have been just near the waters edge, not even in the water, and that gator could have taken him in an instant. I have seen it happen with dogs who were not in the water at all, just near the edge. True they typically will not attack adults that way but a 2 year old looks to be the same size as a dog to a gator. People are getting hung up on what does a no swimming sign really mean. That is irrelevant when you consider what I just described.

I so agree with the amount of people on the ship and doesn't feel like it! Of all our cruises, it felt the least crowded. So many places to go and spread out.

Agree! PS... Montana native here Big Sky.

I think by all accounts anyone traveling to Florida should already have the common sense to know to watch for gators anywhere near water in the entire state. I have even been told to watch out for them when making stops at rest areas. While their attacks aren't common, they can and do happen.

 

I too equate no swimming, with don't be in the water.

 

I have a trip to Disney in August and no plans to change it.

 

Truly it is very sad, and also disappointing too for someone to say Disney just needs to write the check. Gone are the days of common sense and people being responsible for their own actions.

Wow.

I'm from the landlocked prairies and know nothing of alligators. I wouldn't have interpreted a "no swimming" sign to mean "keep the @#$! away from here, there might be alligators".

 

A horrific traffic tragedy, to be sure, but I'm not sure tourists understand the alligator danger particularly in an urban setting.

 

I live close to bear country (some years ago we actually had a bear wander into a city hospital), and we are often amazed by how unaware tourists are of bears. Leaving food in tents, even trying to feed bears, trying to get close to a bear for a good picture.

 

Nowhere in the world - even Disney - is free of danger. It will still be on our list of favourite places to visit, but I'm definitely boning up on how to avoid alligator attacks.

 

Wait, what? Naegeria parasite exposure - "brain-eating amoeba"? Damn you rugged Floridian survivalists, each day must be a battle to live.

LOL.. Yes it is exciting. I may be mistaken but I think we have one of every species or sub species of poisonous snakes and Alligators, Pythons, wild bore, Brown recluse and Black Widow spiders and of course the amoeba. I will also give honorable mention to the African Killer Bees and Fire Ants. They typically don't kill people but it has happened. You gotta be tough to live in Florida. By the way the last person bit by a Cotton Mouth was at he Marriott World Center hotel in Orlando. Poor tourist was walking out by the garden on the path when he stepped on what he thought was a stick. It was actually the tail of a Cotton Mouth who was hiding in the bushes. That poor guy had to have numerous anti venom shots. He wont be back to Florida anytime soon!

The main reason for the no swimming signs is that the water is not treated for swimming (its the same water the ferries go thru and also get some sewage and fertilizer runoff...). Casual exposure like on a small boat is okay, but not immersion and not ingestion Theres also a minor risk of Nigeria parasite exposure, among other fun things. The actual risk of alligators is quite small as evidenced by the fact this is the first incident at Disney I can recall in the 40 years I have been going, so signs warning of Alligators were not an obvious need (apparently they found 5 alligators during the search, which for a body of water that size is negligible).

 

Now, its a fair argument that building beaches adjacent to a non-swimming area sends mixed messages, and that's something that Disney will have to address at some point.

 

There's no one at fault here for this specific incident as far as I can tell. There was a lack of common sense in taking a toddler into dark water late at night marked no swimming just on general principle, even if alligators weren't a specific concern, but like I said, people seem to develop a 'what could go wrong' attitude, especially at Disney where they take risks they otherwise wouldn't.

 

Legalities aside, from a PR and just general humanitarian standpoint, I am certain Disney will work something out with the family. Sadly, I also guarantee you that two years from now, absent changes to the beach structure (which aren't warranted given the relative lack of incidents overall) or signage (which probably will be added strictly from a legal standpoint), go on the beach after the movie and you will see a father and toddler standing in the water at some point.

Naegleria fowleri, colloquially known as the "brain-eating amoeba" is in every fresh water pond in Florida. A young boy died from this at the old Disney water park at Fort Wilderness. That is not the reason they closed that water park but it did happen. After that is when they posted the No swimming signs around the lake. I am sure they had alligators in mind but the main reasons were the amoeba and the fear of a boat running over a swimmer and the fact that the water is just plain nasty full of other non-leathel bacteria and chemicals that can give you an expensive dermatologist bill. As has been said, they never had a gator attack at Disney so due to the laws of probability it was going to happen eventually. It is very sad and shocking. Disney will not want this to go to court. They will just write the big check and put it behind them. Hopefully since this story has captured the nation, future visitors will not go near the water. Its a lose-lose situation.

My first trip to Florida as an adult was to Gainsville. When I checked into the hotel' date=' they warned me to "check the pool for alligators before you swim." Yes, as a northerner, I was quite shocked. I could easily see that the pool was fenced and had a large cement patio before you got to the water. And based on that warning, I didn't go anywhere near it!

 

True, perhaps the family had no idea why there were "No swimming" signs. But I would interpret "no swimming" to mean "don't go in the water."

 

Yes, I'm sorry for the family. And all I know is news reports which may or may not be accurate. They did say that personnel had captured and relocated 4 alligators from the lagoon and that all beaches at WDW are closed.

 

As to whether this will affect sales at WDW or DCL--I don't think so.[/quote']

 

My friend works for FWP. As of tonight they have caputured 5 gators but they are not relocating them. Sad for the gators that had nothing to do with this. Its not a relocation its an extermination but it has to be done to appease the public and collect potential evidence.

I just want to add, they are awesome! On a calm sea night it is amazing. The funny part is Disney has to send out an "all ships in area" message several times before the show so no other ships thinks it is emergency flares!

No doubt that this is a tragedy and we all have to feel for the parents. I will note that we still don't know exactly what happened and some reports are suggesting that the child was out in the water 10 feet away from shore. If that was the case, it certainly paints a different picture. But I haven't seen a detailed enough account from an official source.

Agreed. I only know what the Orange County Sheriff said today which is the boy was in 12 inches of water wading in the lake and watching the beach movie.

He might have thought that they were safe because they weren't "swimming". I haven't stayed on property but have stayed at the Marriott vacation clubs that have similar lakes and signs. I don't go near the water and don't even like walking on paths without being extra cautious. But, many people don't see the danger. It is rare for anything to happen, but when it does happen it is deadly and very sad. My prayers and thoughts are with the family. I can't imagine what they're going through.

 

I too don't understand the purpose of a beach where you can't even wade in the water. My son wanted to sit on the one at the Marriott and I said no. My husband thought I was being a little extreme but now he sees why. You can always have sand and then have the water blocked by some form of large rocks etc. Then it's a little more obvious that you aren't supposed to wade in the water.[/quote

 

Very sad indeed. You were very smart to not let your child sit on the rocks. Disney unfortunately makes the sandy beach very inviting for kids to wade in the water. And I want to add to my previous post. A CC poster said she saw Alligator signs at Disney and as I suspected she was a bit confused because Disney has no such signs. Lestor Holtz literally just reported on the NBC News a few minutes ago that Disney confirmed they have no Alligator or Snake warning signs on any of their resort beaches. And they are "reviewing their policy"

And what does being from Nebraska have to do with being able to read a sign? My first trip to Disney World was when my daughter was three. We traveled down from Maryland.

 

One afternoon when she and her father were napping, I took a walk by one of the lakes near the Disney hotel we were staying in. I was surprised to see big, frequent signs that warned of alligators and no swimming. I took the signs to heart and would not even take that path near the water when with my daughter.

 

Any Disney hotel that I stayed in that was near the water had the same signs.

Watch the news. They have shown the only signs at the Grand Floridian about 100 times. All they say is "No Swimming" Its been the major conversation in the media why the signs only say "No Swimming". And I can only say in my 10+ trips to WDW every year for the last 15 years, I have never seen an alligator warning sign at any of the resort beaches. Lots of No Swimming signs.

It will have no effect whatsoever except for one thing, what I call DSDS (Disney Safety Derangement Syndrome).

 

Based purely on reputation, people have this perception that nothing bad can happen at Disney parks (or on cruise ships for that matter) and therefore do things they would not normally do anywhere else on the planet. Just look at what people leave on unattended strollers for example, or the 'my kid is on a ship, where could they go' attitudes I am sure people have seen.

 

This incident may prompt some people to be more diligent, but most people already knew that it probably wasn't a good idea to go near dark water marked no swimming in Florida...

 

(I do feel bad for the parents, but I reserve the right to comment upon a lack of common sense)

Thats a good point. You are right about people doing things on the ship that they don;t do at home like letting their young children just run around the ship unattended. I remember not long ago that cost a child his life when he drowned in the cruise ship pool. As far as this case in all fairness to the parents they are from Nebraska. They know nothing about alligators and there are no signs that warn for gators or poisonous snakes which are also in the lagoon. In fact Disney has built beaches on this lake and only say "no swimming." The guy was standing right next to the boy in 12 inches of water when the gator made his move. I have lived in Florida my whole life and folks don't realize how fast they attack. I saw a gator take a guys dog who was drinking pond water and the whole attack took a total of maybe 2 seconds and the dog was gone. Disney should not have beaches on this lake which invite people to wade in the water. They also should have warning signs about gators and snakes. In this case I would say Disney will be crucified in court but they wont let it go that far. They will (and should) just write the check. What a tragedy.

I wonder how this will impact park and related cruise attendance? I always assumed the Disney brand meant safety for children. Now with this and the past issues on the cruise ships it makes you wonder.

You have started the ball rolling but my question is did it come certified mail where you had to sign for it? If not, there is no way of proving you got the notice. Sometimes I have had letters show up two weeks late because the post office misdirected it. Just saying....

First - Disney is not the "Ritz-Carlton" of cruise lines. Disney Cruise Line may be priced like a luxury cruise line, but it is not one. Second - I'd hardly call a gaggle of kids onboard DCL "discerning clientele" - but Disney certainly has many kid-pleasing features. I like Disney cruises - occasionally. I'd like them even better without the kids! :D

Thank you for saying it! I was laughing when I read the comment that DCL is the "Ritz Carlton" of cruise lines. Obviously that person has never been on a real luxury line like Seabourn. Disney is priced like one but they are not even close. The only time a Disney ship is even in the ball park of a luxury line is on the DVC Member cruises. We have been on several and the dinner food is brought in special for those cruises. Not the same mass production low quality food that they serve on the regular cruises. And because there are usually only 200 children or less on a Member Cruise the ships amenities are a pleasant experience. Disney charges more because people will pay it just to have the interaction time with the Disney characters which is a real benefit if you are a fan. You will not get that kind of character interaction anywhere else in the Disney system.

there are so many dogs on board airplanes now with those little vests claiming their service status...big dogs...little dogs and everything in between....

it's unnerving to have to wonder how many might not have any training at all.....especially when you're stuck in a small metal tube 6 miles up in the sky....

Its worse than you think. Last year we were on a flight from Honolulu back to Seattle. A guy in a Hawaiian floral shirt and flip flops gets on the plane with a dog. No service dog vest or any indication it was a service dog. The guy takes a seat and the dog, who was well behaved, curled up on the floor next to him. After we took off the stewardess was talking to the guy about the dog and the guy openly said its not a service dog. He says "I never told anyone he was a service dog. I just didnt want to go to Seattle without him so I brought him with me and no one ever asked. Not TSA, not Delta, not anyone."

I've dined on NCL specialty restaurants and was not impressed.

 

One cruise on NCL was more than enough for me, UDP or not.:)

Thats too bad. Of course food is always a subjective thing since everyones tastes are different. We find the premium restaurant food on NCL to be exceptional. Cagneys steakhouse is on equal with Smith & Wollensky in my opinion. I usually use my fork only to cut the Filet.