Beachdude

The difference is that religion is a personal and divisive topic, singing waiters are not. If I invite you to a rally for my favorite political candidate, would it be fair to paint you as offended and asocial for politely declining? I'm sorry but saying grace at dinner just does not have anything to do with dancing waiters or singing happy birthday. They are very different things, no matter how broad a brush you wish to paint with.

Then I'm sure you do agree that we disagree on this. And your missing the point. It's not whether you decline any invitation, but how you respectfully decline to the person who requested, or at the very least, not be confrontational.

Burt

People are being very generous with the word "offended."

 

Is that really what being offended is? Is the bar for being offended that low?

 

Yes, there is a difference between participating in a religious ritual and clapping for a singing waiter. And I would never in my life think to ask someone to participate in the latter anyway? If someone doesn't want to clap for singing waiters, they can do what they want. I will clap or not clap depending on how I feel and not concern myself with what the other people at the table are doing.

I'm not sure what your point is with this post, but I disagree that there are differences in types of social invitations. Different folks have different aversions for group participations. You could easily use "X" in place of the group request because someone would rather not participate in some request at your table. If you don't believe that, you might find yourself "offended" one day when someone says "no, why should I?" to singing happy birthday to your spouse or child.

We are all at risk of tripping over ourselves when we ask for a collective participation among a group of strangers. It's natural and normal. However, how we respond in those situations defines our character.

Burt

Thanks bUU for a very good all inclusive grace. My hats off to you.

However, I find that most responses to this discussion aren't as offended by content of the prayer as they are by the request for participation. Makes me wonder if they are offended to participate in a toast, or participating as a table with the dancing waiters (which I hate by the way). It appears to me that the religious context is what offends so many.

I admit we all have our limits to social inclusion, even at an evening meal on a ship with strangers. But how we respond speaks more about us than those who we struggle to tolerate.

Burt

Who said anything about confrontation? If someone asks me to say grace with them I am going to say no. It's not confrontational to simply not participate in a prayer when asked.

""If someone offered to say grace at my table I would say "no worries." Why do you feel the need to offer your interfaith blessing? Is it better than theirs?""

"No worries" is polite. "Why do you feel the need to offer your interfaith blessing" is confrontational.

Burt

not everyone's, but only their own, indeed.

The person offering grace wouldn't have my family's interests in mind at all. We can have a very positive meal without participating in any grace offering.

My point exactly.

Burt

I don't think that's true, I think the person offering only had their own interests in mind. If they had everyone's interests in mind, they would understand that not everyone shares their religion and would say grace silently to themselves.

Doesn't matter what their motivation is, confrontation shouldn't be the natural reaction. Take the high road and set a positive example for uncomfortable situations. Everyone will be grateful. A polite patient tone is a show of respect and integrity.

Burt

If someone offered to say grace at my table I would say "no worries." Why do you feel the need to offer your interfaith blessing? Is it better than theirs?

Why be confrontational? While offering grace isn't considered good social etiquette by many, the person offering had everyone's best interest in mind. There are many ways to politely decline the offer. A positive response will set the tone for the rest of the meal.

Burt

Just heard a live interview with a passenger on the Carnival ship that is currently in New Orleans.

o Over half of the passengers have disembarked to returrn home from New Orleans.

o Most of the remaining passengers live in the Houston area or elsewhere in Texas and have their cars parked in Galveston

o The Captain said that the port is closed indefinitely (which could of course change at any time) and they might not get back to Galveston until Sunday.

I'm trying to imagine when the ship can leave New Orleans. Ships have to navigate a pretty tight river for a couple of hours to get to the ocean. Can they do that if the river is higher than normal as result of heavy rain?

Burt

Yes, and it really is becoming a societal issue: People expecting others to make up for their own deliberate neglect with regard to properly planning and protecting themselves to the best of their own ability. The expectation that someone will effectively give them for free, something that that someone charges other people money for, is really quite over-the-top.

.

I think it's even more simple than that, we need insurance to reimburse us for our own cultural ignorance.

We talked to a doctor in Hawaii the told us 33 tourist were killed in accidents in his area alone just in the last few years. He said Americans have gotten so used to illegitimate warning signs that are less about warning of real danger and more about preventing litigation, they disregard warnings of real danger.

He called it the Disney land syndrome. There are signs all over the Disney parks that that warn tourist of everything from wet grass to rides that may be too fast for kids "under this tall". Where there aren't warning signs, there are fences. So when a sign on a hiking trail in the jungles of Hawaii warn of a dangerous cliff, tourist almost feel challenged to find the cliff. And several do each year.

I've even found myself with Disney syndrome. As an avid diver and snorkeler, I jumped in a lot of oceans thinking I am skilled enough for the worst possible danger. One Hawaiian who learned of a beach I was about to snorkel warned me that several divers had been killed by sharks on that very beach. I dove it anyway because I thought he was over reacting. It was one of the best beaches I have ever snorkeled. But I have kept count and at least 3 "tourist" snorkelers have been killed by sharks since I dove there. So I don't dive there anymore. Also, I pay more attention to the beach signs that have a number of undertow drownings on that beach in recent years.

Insurance covers us for our loss of common sense.

Burt

We like the cruises of the old days when elegance and service was part of the product. We only cruise now when my CPA wife needs to recuperate from tax season. Otherwise we go on land vacations.

But I can see why young parents would be attracted to these new ships designed to entertain the whole family. One ship is coming out with a go-cart track. Not really cruising in my mind, but I can see it working as a family vacation.

A go-cart track! What next?

Burt

Chops has been more miss than hit for us the last few cruises. We always go there hoping they got better, but they haven't. Food is OK, the service is terrible. We will probably try again the next cruise, I don't know why. Giovanni's hasn't disappointed us yet. Just can't get a steak there.

Burt

We have been visiting and vacationing in Cozumel or Cancun for over 30 years. We quit Cancun about ten years ago when some locals acted hostel toward our kids. And we decided last year the Cozumel didn't feel as safe as it use to. Everything is fine in the Cruise Docks areas, but that isn't what vacationing is for us. With all that is going on, we don't vacation in Mexico anymore.

Burt

Haven't found much on the cruise side, but we were curious how the cruise lines are dealing with the warnings.

Burt

Yes, four years old. It would be great if CC locked old threads. The information would still be availabłe, but it would prevent necroposting.

Yes, almost as annoying a posters jumping in threads they don't care to be in, then sending a post criticizing the thread. To much time on their hands I guess.:confused:

Google is for searches, forums are for discussions with likeminded people.:cool:

Burt

Just a note, San Juan has the worst reputation of getting through customs in any reasonable time. There are several threads about it. Get a porter at the very least.

Burt

<on soapbox> There are more and better things to do on Oahu than donate to the LDS church. They own and operate the PCC. They pay awful wages to the BYU-Hawaii students - a co-worker went there and told me of their practices) <off soapbox>

 

Rent a car. Make a great day drive. Stop off at either Leonards for Malasadas or Diamond Head Market for cream cheese scones for your drive munchies. Head up to Kailua and spend a little time at the beautiful beach at either Kailua or Lanikai. Drive up and take some time at the Byodo-In Buddhist Temple - beautiful gardens and very peaceful. Keep going. Stop at one of the shrimp trucks and have some local shrimp (everyone has a favorite). Keep going. Stop at Sunset Beach or Banzai Pipeline or Waimea Bay to watch the surfers. Keep going. Stop in one of the shave ice places in Haliewa. Then, head back to Honolulu via Hwy 99, stopping at the Dole Plantation if you must have a Dole Whip. A fun day drive that gets you out and about Oahu.

Great advice for a perfect day. You will be tempted to stop every ten miles just to get a post card perfect picture of the ocean.

All the islands are beautiful in their own right. Oahu is no less beautiful, but doesn't get the respect of the other islands because of the Honolulu contrast. And that is too bad because the other 99% of the island is breathtaking.

Burt

Breakfast in the main dinning rooms has always been slow.

Didn't use to be that way, but it sure is now. Plan a head if you are going on an early morning excursion.

Burt

You never know, Oklahoma State games on the ship have been more of a hit than miss. Lucky I guess.

Burt

Kind of a funny question. Other than foods I just don't care for even at home, I would eat anything on a buffet. I do avoid the coffee because it taste old.

Burt

Our family has stayed at resorts (including Cancun). In general when it comes to travel in the Caribbean, my now adult kids only cruise mainly because of the crime. Specifically they won't go back to Cancun for any reason because of some past experiences with young aggressive locals. Sally and I like land vacations, but we don't do it in the Caribbean for the same reason. We feel much safer in places like Hawaii or Europe. We don't consider any cruises anywhere in Mexico anymore.

Burt

In my experience:

Beginner - requires floatation device and a staff person nearby to assist and/or train the swimmer.

Intermediate - requires floatation device while swimming, but no assistance. My wife fits in the category because while she snorkels well, she isn't a strong swimmer.

Expert - does not require floatation device while swimming. Expert snorkelers typically are skilled enough to submerge underwater, so a floatation device would restrict their experience.

I never brag about my snorkeling skills, but I do inform the operators that I like to swim under the waters, so I would rather not use a floatation device. I let them figure out my category.

Burt

Take the review with a grain of salt.

We do have people here that complain about every cruise they take. And many of us have made comments like "Why do you keep cruising if you can only find fault with everything?".

These types of posts are balanced by the Pollyanna cheer leaders who have nothing bad to say. As one poster said, the middle ground tends to give a realistic overall review. We need all the reviews to find the balance.

Burt

I would say less than 6-7 especially with cocktails running $10-12 and a can of soda around $4, plus the frequent drink package sales. It's a good deal if you also enjoy fresh squeezed OJ, specialty coffee, bottled water in addition to the alcoholic drinks.

Grandma beat me to it. Consider the whole package and it's hard to beat if you drink any alcohol.

But, as a warning, you'll find yourself not remembering some of your vacation if you try to get your monies worth from the package, :o. I have a friend :cool: who made fool of himself getting real drunk trying to get his monies worth. After that, my friend :rolleyes:, decided to enjoy the cruise without worrying about the cost. His wife is wife is grateful.

Burt

Yes, there is repetitiveness within a line and/or ships, but I've also seen guest entertainers perform on more than one brand. For example one comedian performed on Princess one week, and Royal Caribbean the next week. It was the exact same act.

 

 

It might even be three. They changes ships in the ports.

Burt

So much for your trying to focus on the topic. It's apparently all about you and all about your grudges. Since you seem intent on just posting personal attack after personal attack and not allowing the on topic discussion to take place go ahead and have the final word.

Ah, like the lonely cloud sliding in with temporary relief from the blazing hot Cuban sun (isn't it always hot while passing Cuba?), we can refocus on the fun stuff.

On the discussion of the buffet, I'm a bit introverted, so I struggle to invite myself at a table with others already at the business of eating. But of the times I pushed myself and asked, I have never been refused or made felt unwelcome. In general folks are friendly and inviting. Even the big guy with the skull tattoo turned out to be very friendly. We don't always have discussions, but do once in a while.

I'm not a big fan of buffets in general, but that is more because Sally and I are in the habit of skipping buffets at home to watch our weight. Buffets on the ship are a fun people watching place and the food is ok. I especially enjoy buffets after boarding because everyone is excited and we feed off their energy.

Buffets on cruise ships can also be kind of a pick-me-up for those days when cruising zaps the energy from us. I don't know how, but Sally and I have a habit of going back to the ship for a buffet lunch after a long hot humid morning of shopping on shore. We use the buffet to re-energize our batteries for the trip back out to the beach.

Sorry, I wandered off for a moment there. Blame it on age. :cool:

Burt