Technical Fire Discussion

I originally posted this on the Carnival page since that is my normal stomping ground, but was encouraged to post over here as well.....

 

I would like to have a technical discussion about the fire on the Star Princess. Not the cause (so no smoking discussions), but rather about what happened for this to get so big.

 

This fire was BIG, and very hot. From the limited photos available, you can see the steel balconies were burnt/melted away.

 

#1 - assume the fire started on the balcony. What is possibly on the balcony that can provide enough fuel for a fire of this magnitude? The teak decking wouldn't get enough air, and even if it did, it wouldn't burn hot enough. I saw some threads that said that there was astro-turf type carpet on the Princess balcony decks. Anyone know?

 

#2 - If the fire was in a cabin, why didn't the fire suppresion system handle it? Have there been any reports on the system not working?

 

#3 - Are the balconies and skin made from aluminum instead of steel? I know a lot of Navy cruisers have an aluminum superstrtucture to avoid some of the top-heaviness if made from steel. Do they do the same with cruise liners? Aluminum will burn (remember the Falklands??) and will burn extremely hot. But, aluminum is also extremely difficult to put out, and if it was an aluminum fire, how on earth did the crew get it out before the entire thing went up? Steel on the other hand is very very very difficult to get to burn.

 

From articles I've read, it is almost impossible to ignite aluminum with a normal fire.

 

Aluminum melts at 1218 degrees F, while steel melts at 2500+ degrees F. Steel is more commonly used in shipbuilding.

 

I would appreciate any sane, logical, non-emotional, non-root-cause based (i.e. no cigarettes) discussion.

 

Thanks :cool:

You are on the right track. I don't know the answers to the questions you raise, but there is very little steel in today's (since the 80's) superstructures (portion of ship above the main deck). Aluminum allows larger structure with less weight. Still, how could a fire started like this one be hot enough to get any metal going? I was in the Navy, now a firefighter. I could understand a fuel fire starting from an interior fire, but this one is puzzling. Of course, it DID HAPPEN, so it IS POSSIBLE.

the second time i looked outside the ship,my first thought was,WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FIRE SPRINKLERS??????.....ON 3 FLOORS?????somethings not right here folks,looks like part of the system was shut down for whatever reasons,and the cigarette didnt start this,the person did,or so it appears,thats like blaming a car for drunk driving,its not the car it, was the driver.and for a supposed trained crew,IT SURE TOOK THEM LONG ENOUGH,there response times shold of been much faster,which is another point,how often do they practice drills for firefighting??????,and thank you (above poster)i was thinking i was the only one wondering this....ok ive said my point for now:eek: :rolleyes:

thanks john for posting this hopefully others will jump in on this :cool:

thanks john for posting this hopefully others will jump in on this :cool:

 

..same thread on the Carnival Board..

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=6178687&posted=1#post6178687

We haven't seen any pictures of the damage and extent of damage from inside the cabins. As a firefighter, at a Nuclear Power Plant, I have seen in training scenarios how fast a fire can spread through plastic and rubber components. It is pretty fast.

 

The Browns Ferry Nuclear Power Plant suffered extensive damage from a fire that was started by a worker using a candle to "sniff" for air leaks around electrical conduits that penetrated a wall. The candle flame was sucked into the conduit and rapidly spread along the insulation. Millions of dollars in damage resulted, and the plant was out of comission.

 

All fires require three things, a source of heat, a combustible material (fuel) and oxygen. If you can remove any one of these, the fire will be prevented.

 

A ship moving at ~20 knots provided adequate air to supply the fire, fuel was present in the form of chairs, carpeting, etc. Now all you needed is the ignition source and you see what happens.

 

The investigators should probably be able to determine the point of origin, and if it is found to be external to the ship on one of the cabin balconies, it may well be an errant cigarette. If it is internal to one of the cabins, then it may be other things. We will have to wait for the investigation to run its course.

 

Hypo

Very tragic event on the Star Princess. And, I can't help thinking about (hope not) is Asama Bin Ladin involeved in this? What do you think?

Possible, but not likely. They would have gone for a more vulnerable spot than an empty balcony in the middle of the night. They would have tried to sink the thing.

#1 - assume the fire started on the balcony. What is possibly on the balcony that can provide enough fuel for a fire of this magnitude? The teak decking wouldn't get enough air, and even if it did, it wouldn't burn hot enough. I saw some threads that said that there was astro-turf type carpet on the Princess balcony decks. Anyone know?

Most balconies have a blue plastic matting on top of the steel (or aluminum?) deck. I don't think that the PH suites have anything different, but I'm not positive. The only teak I know for sure is the railings and the balcony furniture for the suites. Minisuites and balcony cabins have plastic deck furniture. The "glass" on the balcony is some kind of plastic, possibly Lexan. The semi-lounge chairs have a pad, regular chairs don't. At first blush it doesn't seem like there is a lot of combustible material, but the results of the fire show otherwise. Almost anything will burn if it gets hot enough.

 

#2 - If the fire was in a cabin, why didn't the fire suppresion system handle it? Have there been any reports on the system not working?

Water sprinkler system is in use seems to have done its job in permitting a safe evacuation of the entire area. No one has reported otherwise. If you look closely at some of the photos that show more detail, it appears that several cabins on Aloha deck might have been destroyed completely, but nearby cabins look like the balcony doors are intact and might not be in nearly as bad shape, but probably still unusable for obvious reasons.

 

#3 - Are the balconies and skin made from aluminum instead of steel?

I think the large volume of metal that appears to have simply gone up in smoke is good evidence that alumimun was used. As to how it was ignited, I don't know and will have to wait for the official reports to be made public. It is possible that such information might be suppressed for security reasons.

"Possible but not likely..."?? (about Osama being involved)?

 

Well, remember the World Trade Centers were bombed years before the planes hit.

 

Was this a 'test'?

The matting material on the balconies is tyvek type.

 

Keep in mind that balconies are full of condensation in the middle of the night. Ditto the chairs, tables and anything cloth material left overnight. Railings, too.

 

Looking at the width and height of the damage, it quite resembles the size of one of the modular "building blocks" the shipyards use.

 

I'd bet on electrical in nature spreading through the conduits.

I don't know what the balconies are made of, but:

 

If the balconies are not sprinklered (and I don't think they are) then once a fire gets going out there, there is nothing to stop it, with the exception of spraying water on it from above/below/inside a cabin. No one is going to be able to stand being above the fire, very few people are going to be able to get close enough from inside a room without the proper gear, and not much can be done from below. I'm surprised they got this thing out at all.

 

Hypo: do you know John Cochran with Municpal Fire Services Consulting in Russellville by chance?

 

Jody

Very tragic event on the Star Princess. And, I can't help thinking about (hope not) is Asama Bin Ladin involeved in this? What do you think?

 

Dear Lady,

 

Terrorists tend to quickly take credit for their nefarious deeds. Indeed there has been no such claim, but it is just such speculation that peaks the interest of those of their ilk. I assure you that there was no such involvement by him or any other organization, and I would ask you to be prudent in your musings about such things. The industry we so love can ill-afford to endure an unnecessary panic caused by errant speculation. This was most likely a complete and tragic accident and nothing more. A few months from now, passengers of the Star will be enjoying new carpeting and upholstery and all of the other upgrades that will surely be a part of this unscheduled remodel.

Very tragic event on the Star Princess. And, I can't help thinking about (hope not) is Asama Bin Ladin involeved in this? What do you think?

No, highly doubtful. If he were involved, the ship would have been simply blown out of the water. Fatalities would have been 100% ... there would have been no survivors.

 

But, I wonder ... can't help but wonder based on the tremendous amount of damage apparent in the photographs ... do you think some sort of accelerant was used to start this fire? Maybe it was intentionally set ... perhaps by a nutso passenger or a disgruntled crew member?

 

I hate to even speculate about this ... but would rather wait to see what the investigation uncovers ... but I must admit that this was one of the first thoughts to cross my mind. :( That fire damage just looks too bad to have been an accident ... at least to my untrained eye.

 

What do you think?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

Tyvek auto ignites at 750 F. A burning, undrawn cigarette burns at 752 at the sides, and over 1100 at the center. Certainly high enough to auto-ignite the Tyvek.

I find this discussion very informative. If you go to the link with the web cam minute by minute frames you can see what appears to be an explosion.

I'll go run find it. If someone else has please post now.

http://houseofpancake.com/tmp/star fire/

if this doesn't work it's on the NBC thread, two down right now page one.

The balconies on most of the ships do have the rubberized matting, which may be a petrolium-based plastic or rubber material...possibly recycled from tires. Some ships also have the teak decking, treated potentially with resins which would be accelerants if caught on fire. Deck chairs are made of plastic...again, probably a plastic resin with flammable material. The tabletops of the patio tables are either plastic or sometimes a fiberglass top on metal frame - fiberglass is also flammable due to the compounds which bind the fibers. And finally, the balcony dividers between the cabins are usually plastic.

 

None of these things is flammable to the extent that they would light on fire from a cigarette sitting on them - they would require a hotter fire than that to get burning. But once they are burning, they would burn with very high intensity and speed, and when plastics burn, they melt, while remaining flammable. This would allow the molten and flaming resins and plastics to travel down the gutters to other cabins and drip to cabin balconies below, while flames from the fire would lick the balconies above likely igniting the dividers and then the furniture on each successive level.

 

Forward motion of the ship would definately allow an intense and hot fire to travel rearward quickly. And the moisture that gathers on deck is first of all not as heavy on upper decks and also laden with high salt content, which more quickly evaporates the moisture content and dries it out more quickly offering less resistance to a fire.

 

Now, as for the cigarette theory: it could be a cigarette, or something else such as electrical fire or arson. But a cigarette alone could not likely trigger the heat necessary to ignite the plastics and resins on the balcony. So a possibility would be the presence of towels, robes, or other items left on a balcony with flammable properties, and cloth materials which have a lower flashpoint. If a cigarette had time to sit on a robe left on a chair, and that robe were to ignite - the cloth and polyester materials in the robe or towel would burn probably hot enough to ignite a plastic resin chair. That plastic resin chair would melt down into a flammable plastic liquid, which would spread over much of the blue decking material...itself likely a flammable rubber compound (though with a very high flame resistance). The heat from a plastic fire would be intense, and possibly ignite the decking material, especially helped by the wind breathing the fire from the ship's forward movement. This would push the flames back towards the plastic or fiberglass resin dividers, and ignite them. The fire could travel very quickly with wind pushing it, flames reaching quite high and the heat from a plastic/resin fire being extremely hot. And the liquid flammable residue would likely flow down towards the rear of the ship and down to the next deck.

 

With the fire on the balconies, the sprinkler systems in the cabins were likely not triggered - in fact many balconies from the ship were likely engulfed with no damage inside the cabins for quite some time. This is why, despite the breadth of the fire and the speed, so few people were injured or killed. A fire spreading on the inside of the cabins would have triggered sprinklers much sooner, AND would have caused much more extensive smoke in the inner halls and other cabins, with a much higher fatality rate.

 

Near the initial source, and the center of the plastic/resin fire, the heat would probably be sufficient to warp aluminum, but not likely steel. Note that the upper deck, with the glass windows at poolside, appear to have some flame damage and lots of smoke damage, but appear to have resisted the warping prevalent on the lower passenger balconies. Possibly this part of the upper deck, being an overhanging passenger deck, may have been steel.

 

In putting the fire out - this would have been very tough to fight. Accessing it from inside the cabins being affected would be very tough...any opening of balcony doors would result in sucking the fire into the ship - ever open a balcony door when your cabin door is open!? Approaching from above, as mentioned, would be close to impossible with the smoke and heat. From below was certainly feasable, but on the protruding decks below it would have been treacherous with falling debris, cinders, and possibly burning and melting resins. Lowering the lifeboats may have been more to save them from being damaged than to evacuate passengers - the lifeboats were just below where the fire was raging. And several of the lifeboats on these ships usually have firefighting capabilities - with fireboat-style suction hoses and pumps which can blast seawater. Likely these were lowered and used to help put out the fire using seawater, from a safe location just off the port side.

 

All in all, it looks like they did an amazing job, to stop the ship, turn away from the breezes, lower boats to avoid damage, evacuate all passengers with extremely low casualties, containing the fire to the port side, outside cabins only, probably fighting the fire both from within the ship and from pump-equipped lifeboats, and bringing the ship safely to port.

and for a supposed trained crew,IT SURE TOOK THEM LONG ENOUGH,there response times shold of been much faster,which is another point,how often do they practice drills for firefighting?????

 

Are you implying the crew were slow and untrained? I'm curious: Are you a trained firefighter? Did you witness the crew's response in this instance? I encourage everyone to read this crew member's blog about safety preparation and execution aboard Princess ships:

 

http://www.crewoffice.blogspot.com/

If I recall correctly USCG requires weekly firefighting drills on cruise ships.

I'd bet on electrical in nature spreading through the conduits.

 

Isn't the Laundry area in that part, or near that part of the ship?

In my professional opinion, the fire spread to the cabins from the balconies. Guessing, the cabins were fully consumed and the fire did not advance past the cabin doors. This is only an educated guess.

Thanks, Justin, for that excellent speculative overview of the fire. I wondered when someone was going to get to the idea of a smoldering cigarette on a robe or towels. Much of your information about steel versus aluminum in shipbuilding I did not know.

 

I have learned a lot from your message and thank you for taking the time to educate us.

Thank you Bucket for this thread. A very interesting one. I surely hope that it stays this way. In fact I am learning alot myself of the ways that a fire could go. Again I thank you.

 

Marilyn

I'm not an expert on this subject but I'm just speculating. I'm guessing the balcony system on the Star is not unlike that on the Costa Atlantica (reference below) in that it is added onto the superstructure as a modular system. Therefore, it is made of composite material. See the blurb below from Joptek.

 

"We have supplied lightweight balcony systems for several cruisers. Shown are the prefabricated balconies installed on the Costa Atlantica. The balcony’s deck is teakwood surfacing combined with lightweight sandwich construction. The composite structure achieves significant weight reductions."

 

http://www.joptek.fi/?1;2;2200;400.2200.html

 

 

If it was made of composite material, then flammability of the balcony deck will have increased. See summary below.

 

 

"Composite materials offer the potential for substantial weight savings in the structure of both surface ships and submarines. However, the organic nature of the binder resins in these materials implies that one would be replacing non-flammable materials (aluminum, steel) with materials that could possibly contribute to a fire."

 

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire93/art117.html

Thanks you Zackiedawg for a very informative post.