Why isn't Grandeur in Norfolk, VA?

[Terpnut]

I think both areas have much to offer and will draw from much the same populations - VA, NC, MD, DC, PA, WV, etc. Virginia however has some distinct advantages - Virginia Beach, Eastern Shore (I know MD has part of it also), Williamsburg, Charlottesville, Richmond, and a days drive to the DC area. Located within an hour or two is Busch Gardens, Kings Dominion, various water parks and a couple of other theme parks. Plus in Norfolk you are so much closer to the ocean and like others pointed out - no bridges.

I think you must have missed my earlier post with the demographic data, but your point is waaaaaay off base from reality. There are probably over 12 million people within a 90 minute drive of Baltimore. There are less than 2 million people within a 90 minute drive of Norfolk. And to make things worse for Norfolk, the 10 million people near Baltimore have substantially and measurably more discretionary income than that of the Norfolk metro area. And no, most people in Maryland and Virginia would NOT consider driving to Norfolk to cruise so you are dreaming if you think Norfolk draws people from Maryland or Northern Virginia or Raleigh, NC on a regular basis. Most cruise ports draw their "regulars" within less than a couple hours drive.

 

And you mention Busch Gardens, Kings Dominion and Virginia Beach, but completely forget that the attractions in and around our nation's capital (and not to mention Baltimore itself) outdraw Richmond or tidewater area attractions by orders of magnitude of people. About 20 million people visit DC each year and several million more visit Baltimore each year. So Norfolk is actually at a significant disadvantage from a tourism perspective--not the other way around.

 

I'm honestly not trying to bad-mouth Norfolk (we love the area) but it is quite simply delusional to even try to compare the Norfolk area in the same sentence as the Washington DC/Baltimore area as far as basic demographics, overall buying power or tourism. You are comparing a top-5 major U.S. metropolitan area with the most affluent customers in America and with international and national drawing power, to a mid-sized American city with virtually no tourism draw outside of the Mid-Atlantic region.

 

As I (and others) have said, the reality is that Norfolk just can't support a cruise ship on a regular basis. This is not just an opinion--it is a sad fact for Norfolk area residents.

[BND]

I think both areas have much to offer and will draw from much the same populations - VA, NC, MD, DC, PA, WV, etc. Virginia however has some distinct advantages - Virginia Beach, Eastern Shore (I know MD has part of it also), Williamsburg, Charlottesville, Richmond, and a days drive to the DC area. Located within an hour or two is Busch Gardens, Kings Dominion, various water parks and a couple of other theme parks. Plus in Norfolk you are so much closer to the ocean and like others pointed out - no bridges.

 

If you read mine and others earlier posts, that isn't the point. I'm not going to repeat myself because I made my point earlier, but the bottom line is the bottom line. It's a business/financial decision to have more cruises out of Baltimore than Norfolk. Demographics are the key. I don't care about the amusement parks. They won't pull people to cruises nearby and have nothing to do with this overall issue.

[Terpnut]

.. Plus in Norfolk you are so much closer to the ocean and like others pointed out - no bridges.

I also don't understand the refrain of Norfolk being better because the port is closer to the ocean. To bring up this point completely ignores the most relevant need for a cruise line: to put your ships in a port most convenient to your paying customers.

 

To rationalize that Norfolk is better than Baltimore because it's closer to the ocean and wastes less time in Bay transit is like saying Charleston should get more cruise ships than New York because it is closer to the Caribbean. Are all those NY/NJ sailings wasting time and fuel to get to the Caribbean? Yes. Do all those NY area customers care? No. Sure Charleston would be a better port IF all the NY area customers could fly to Charleston for free and in under an hour, but that's not the real world, right? Similarly, I'm not about to spend 3 1/2 hours to drive to Norfolk because I could fly roundtrip to Florida in that time!

 

Not to belabor the point, but the reason New York/Bayonne or Baltimore have more cruise ships than Norfolk or Charleston is because there are huge numbers of customers that live near the port and don't want to fly to Florida to cruise. The cruise ships are NOT in those ports because they are the most convenient to the ocean. :rolleyes:

[The Grumpus]

I just got off Grandeur yesterday. I know that what's said at the Captian's corner isn't always gospel but I found this interesting. Captian Rob said that he wouldn't be surprised that in the future a port wasn't built in Annapolis - about 45 minutes from Baltimore so still convient to the airports. The port could be put just outside of both bridges and cut 2 hours off the commute to/from Baltimore.

You are right, I wouldn't take what Captain Rob says serious about a cruise ship pier in Annapolis, that is just not going to happen for many reasons. Not that I would mind, anything to make cruising more convenient for me I'm for. Just that it can take 6-months to get a permit to put a shed in your back yard here, it would be impossible to ever permit a cruise ship pier.

[GXmanDC]

If Norfolk was more profitable for RCI, or any line, they'd have more ships there. It isn't about amusement parks, Williamsburg or the number of bars on a particular street. As others have said, it is purely a business decision.

 

Although I live in Washington, I'm not gunning for B-more. I've never sailed from there and have no plans to in the near future. I prefer to depart from Miami.

[temple1]

I think you must have missed my earlier post with the demographic data, but your point is waaaaaay off base from reality. There are probably over 12 million people within a 90 minute drive of Baltimore. There are less than 2 million people within a 90 minute drive of Norfolk. And to make things worse for Norfolk, the 10 million people near Baltimore have substantially and measurably more discretionary income than that of the Norfolk metro area. And no, most people in Maryland and Virginia would NOT consider driving to Norfolk to cruise so you are dreaming if you think Norfolk draws people from Maryland or Northern Virginia or Raleigh, NC on a regular basis. Most cruise ports draw their "regulars" within less than a couple hours drive.

 

And you mention Busch Gardens, Kings Dominion and Virginia Beach, but completely forget that the attractions in and around our nation's capital (and not to mention Baltimore itself) outdraw Richmond or tidewater area attractions by orders of magnitude of people. About 20 million people visit DC each year and several million more visit Baltimore each year. So Norfolk is actually at a significant disadvantage from a tourism perspective--not the other way around.

 

I'm honestly not trying to bad-mouth Norfolk (we love the area) but it is quite simply delusional to even try to compare the Norfolk area in the same sentence as the Washington DC/Baltimore area as far as basic demographics, overall buying power or tourism. You are comparing a top-5 major U.S. metropolitan area with the most affluent customers in America and with international and national drawing power, to a mid-sized American city with virtually no tourism draw outside of the Mid-Atlantic region.

 

As I (and others) have said, the reality is that Norfolk just can't support a cruise ship on a regular basis. This is not just an opinion--it is a sad fact for Norfolk area residents.

 

So, you think Baltimore is a hotbed of tourism. :D

 

Yes, DC is a huge tourist draw. But overall, Virginia has many more tourist destinations within a few hours of Norfolk.

 

If you ask anyone coming from the poor ravaged regions, crawling out from their trailer homes in the areas south of the Potomac River if they prefer to drive to Virginia for a vacation or to Baltimore I'm sure the answer is - Please God, not the Beltway.

 

Since many people have indicated they like to visit the area they cruise from before or after the cruise - Virginia has much more to offer than a day trip to Baltimore.

 

Like others, I would prefer not to have 2 days wasted getting in and out of the Chesapeake Bay.

 

Actually, I'm lobbying for a ship in Charleston even if it is for a partial year.

[tiyana4]

So, you think Baltimore is a hotbed of tourism. :D

 

Yes, DC is a huge tourist draw. But overall, Virginia has many more tourist destinations within a few hours of Norfolk.

 

If you ask anyone coming from the poor ravaged regions, crawling out from their trailer homes in the areas south of the Potomac River if they prefer to drive to Virginia for a vacation or to Baltimore I'm sure the answer is - Please God, not the Beltway.

 

Since many people have indicated they like to visit the area they cruise from before or after the cruise - Virginia has much more to offer than a day trip to Baltimore.

 

Like others, I would prefer not to have 2 days wasted getting in and out of the Chesapeake Bay.

 

Actually, I'm lobbying for a ship in Charleston even if it is for a partial year.

 

I thought you guys were getting the Carnival Fantasy year-round next May. I saw an article announcing it last month. Maybe something has changed.

[GXmanDC]

The best way to get more sailings from Norfolk is to get all of your friends and family to book on the Enchantment this spring. Book high-end cabins, don't request credit for a price drop and spend tons of money while on the cruise. I doubt any cruise line looks further than the bottom line when they choose where to sail from.

[02143]

If you ask anyone coming from the poor ravaged regions, crawling out from their trailer homes in the areas south of the Potomac River if they prefer to drive to Virginia for a vacation or to Baltimore I'm sure the answer is - Please God, not the Beltway.

 

Why does this thread keep turning what is a business decision into a referendum on the Norfolk area's collective self-esteem? The guy you're responding to said nothing meriting this kind of response.

 

Hampton Roads is a great area to visit. I traveled from Boston to Williamsburg, Jamestown, and Yorktown last year and loved it. But this has nothing to do with Norfolk's ability to profitably host cruise lines.

[Terpnut]

So, you think Baltimore is a hotbed of tourism. :D

 

Yes, DC is a huge tourist draw. But overall, Virginia has many more tourist destinations within a few hours of Norfolk.

 

If you ask anyone coming from the poor ravaged regions, crawling out from their trailer homes in the areas south of the Potomac River if they prefer to drive to Virginia for a vacation or to Baltimore I'm sure the answer is - Please God, not the Beltway.

 

Since many people have indicated they like to visit the area they cruise from before or after the cruise - Virginia has much more to offer than a day trip to Baltimore.

 

I hope you're just kidding around, right? While everyone knows Washington DC is one of the top most visited cities in America, Baltimore is in the top 30 with over 12 million visitors each year--that's comparable to Fort Lauderdale or Nashville and light-years ahead of the tidewater region! In my opinion, the city of Baltimore alone offers as much historical, cultural, entertainment, dining and other tourist options as the entire tidewater area.

 

As to your example about "poor ravaged" people preferring the tidewater attractions, what relevance does that have to this topic? It only reinforces the weakness of Norfolk's business case. If you're penny-pinched anywhere in America, you'll be far more likely to hit your local beach over a few nights in DC or Baltimore, but those people don't have much discretionary spending so they are not potential cruise passengers. If you don't have any vacation monies to spend, then these poor people you are referring to can't help Norfolk keep a cruise ship.

The key point here is that alot more people with the vacation money to spend either live near or visit DC and Baltimore by an order of magnitude over the tidewater region. You may not believe or like this personally, but it is a statistical reality, so you should really do your homework before making wholly unsubstantiated assertions.

 

Why does this thread keep turning what is a business decision into a referendum on the Norfolk area's collective self-esteem? The guy you're responding to said nothing meriting this kind of response.

Well said. I think those types of comments demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of the laws of supply and demand, basic business decision-making, and that Norfolk is just not (and likely never will be) a strong enough player in the tourism game. I keep making the same basic point that the tidewater region just cannot compare to the DC/Baltimore area from either a demographic, economic or tourism perspective, but it seems that some Norfolk residents take this quite personally as some indictment of their home turf. The reality is, as I posted earlier, that Norfolk is just a mid-sized city with a middling economy with only some region tourism appeal. It just can't compete against far more affluent and populous metropolitan areas with much bigger tourism draws. Not trying to "put down" Norfolk--just explaining why it's losing it's cruise ships.