Craps: 100 No Ten, 100 No Four

[Deckhawk]

If you lay them both at the same time the fee is $5. However, if you lay them on different roles, should they charge you $2 for the first and then $2 for the second? or does the second cost you $3?

 

Also - Let's say you lay them on different roles for $2 each, if you remove them at the same time do you get $5 back instead of $4?

 

Just curious to the "offical" rules. I got into it with a stickman about a dollar on my last cruise. I felt cheap, but I'm interested in the correct way...

[Jeffffffs]

I can't speak to the don't side, but from the right side if I bought the 4 and 10 for $50 each my experience (primarily Atlantic City, Vegas would be different since you only pay the vig when it hits) has been i'd pay $2 for the first buy, and they'd charge me the extra buck when the total of my buys reached $100, so the second $50 would cost $3.

[MrCo9]

If you are laying the 4 and 10 for $100 each to win $50 on each the vig is $2.50 on each for a total of $5. If they charge you $2 on the first and $3 on the second you are not being ripped off. If they charge you $2 both times consider yourself lucky. Arguing over $1 is a don't side trick to bring bad karma to the table and try to get the 7 to roll.

[Deckhawk]

Second question for don't players:

 

I've been laying no 4, no 10 for $100 each (to win $50) and hedging with a $10 hard 4, $10 hard 10. Anyone played this? From my view, it seems like a decent play, with only two dice combos that can kill you 1 - 3, 3 - 1 (when 2-2 or 5-5 show up you win $70 and only lose $30). Alternatively, I've thought about bumping my hard ways up to $15 each so that even when hard 2 or 4 hits, I still win a small amount...

 

thoughts?

 

I did well on my last cruise combing the lay bets with another don't pass strategy that I always play...took home 2K...but I'm not sure if I just got lucky or I have a fairly good strategy worked out...

 

R

[grod19]

actually the more you bet on your hedge the greater the house edge you are encountering. A no 10, no 4 are true odds bets, that is why you buy them, so the house gets a little something. by hedging your bet you are still paying the vig but now you are also introducing a house edge on the hardways. You are softening the blow when a 10 shows up but you are also winning less when the 7 shows.

 

Someone check my logic and math but I am getting the house edge to increase as the hardway bet increases.

 

Granted all statistics are based on the law of big numbers and since I dont think any of us play millions of hands or throws of the dice its all being at the right place at the right time.

[MrCo9]

You got lucky. There is a reason the casino spends the extra $.50 in ink to have the 4 and 10 put on the layout, those numbers do roll.

 

Betting the hardways when laying an even number gives the casino one more opportunity to take your money. It may work for you once in a while, but it is a losing system.

[Mr. Luckytoo]

Second question for don't players:

 

I've been laying no 4, no 10 for $100 each (to win $50) and hedging with a $10 hard 4, $10 hard 10. Anyone played this? From my view, it seems like a decent play, with only two dice combos that can kill you 1 - 3, 3 - 1 (when 2-2 or 5-5 show up you win $70 and only lose $30). Alternatively, I've thought about bumping my hard ways up to $15 each so that even when hard 2 or 4 hits, I still win a small amount...

 

thoughts?

 

I did well on my last cruise combing the lay bets with another don't pass strategy that I always play...took home 2K...but I'm not sure if I just got lucky or I have a fairly good strategy worked out...

 

R

 

You got Lucky! MrCo9 is correct in his explaination.

[MasterShake29]

As a gambling rule, never hedge your bets.

[PopeSailin]

As a gambling rule, never hedge your bets.

 

 

This is very true. I have been a crap dealer for over 15 years and still currently work in Tunica MS. Hedging just increases the house edge.

 

As for paying vig, different casinos do this differently. The CORRECT way is to pay vig on lay bets (all bets actually) INDIVIDUALLY. Doing it this way DOES in fact make the house more money over time.

[Deckhawk]

While I appreciate the feedback, I'm not sure I agree that all hedging is bad. While I agree that when betting right it might not make as much sense, hedging on the dark side make sense in some cases. Let me give you this example:

 

I have $10 on the DP (or DC) and 6 or 8 is rolled. Some dark side players say "no action" and keep their money on the DC (or remove their DP bet) because the odds of a 6 or 8 aren't as good as 4, 5, 9, 10. This doesn't make sense to me, because even on 6/8, the odds of a 7 coming are in your favor. However, because the odds are a bit closer, hedging the 6/8 isn't a bad idea here. On a $10 bet, if you place $6 on 6/8, you reduce your risk/return. If 7 comes, you win $10, lose $6, $4 profit. If 6/8 comes, you lose $10, win $7, $3 loss. You are risking $3 to win $4...seems like a good hedge to me? The other option could be to place a $1 on hard 6/8, but that is a bit of a risker hedge. Also, if you feel the table getting hot, you can place the number for the same amount as your don't...in this case you can't lose (although your profit is minimized).

 

While I see why $100 no ten and $10 hard ten might be a bad place, hedging the 6/8 isn't a bad play in my opinion...

[MrCo9]

While I appreciate the feedback, I'm not sure I agree that all hedging is bad. While I agree that when betting right it might not make as much sense, hedging on the dark side make sense in some cases. Let me give you this example:

 

I have $10 on the DP (or DC) and 6 or 8 is rolled. Some dark side players say "no action" and keep their money on the DC (or remove their DP bet) because the odds of a 6 or 8 aren't as good as 4, 5, 9, 10. This doesn't make sense to me, because even on 6/8, the odds of a 7 coming are in your favor. However, because the odds are a bit closer, hedging the 6/8 isn't a bad idea here. On a $10 bet, if you place $6 on 6/8, you reduce your risk/return. If 7 comes, you win $10, lose $6, $4 profit. If 6/8 comes, you lose $10, win $7, $3 loss. You are risking $3 to win $4...seems like a good hedge to me? The other option could be to place a $1 on hard 6/8, but that is a bit of a risker hedge. Also, if you feel the table getting hot, you can place the number for the same amount as your don't...in this case you can't lose (although your profit is minimized).

 

While I see why $100 no ten and $10 hard ten might be a bad place, hedging the 6/8 isn't a bad play in my opinion...

That's what we call a stroker. Either make a bet, or don't make a bet. But, to place the 6 or 8 for $6 when you have a $10 don't come or don't pass bet on the number is a j*ck off move.

 

Make $100 don't bets and place the 4 and 10 for $60 or the 5 and 9 for $75, and the 6 and 8 for $90, then you're REALLY going to make some $$. LOL.

 

O, wait, 22.22% of the time you're going to lose your $100 when a 7 or 11 rolls and only 8.3333% of the time you'll win on a 2 or 3.

[Mr. Luckytoo]

While I appreciate the feedback, I'm not sure I agree that all hedging is bad. While I agree that when betting right it might not make as much sense, hedging on the dark side make sense in some cases. Let me give you this example:

 

I have $10 on the DP (or DC) and 6 or 8 is rolled. Some dark side players say "no action" and keep their money on the DC (or remove their DP bet) because the odds of a 6 or 8 aren't as good as 4, 5, 9, 10. This doesn't make sense to me, because even on 6/8, the odds of a 7 coming are in your favor. However, because the odds are a bit closer, hedging the 6/8 isn't a bad idea here. On a $10 bet, if you place $6 on 6/8, you reduce your risk/return. If 7 comes, you win $10, lose $6, $4 profit. If 6/8 comes, you lose $10, win $7, $3 loss. You are risking $3 to win $4...seems like a good hedge to me? The other option could be to place a $1 on hard 6/8, but that is a bit of a risker hedge. Also, if you feel the table getting hot, you can place the number for the same amount as your don't...in this case you can't lose (although your profit is minimized).

 

While I see why $100 no ten and $10 hard ten might be a bad place, hedging the 6/8 isn't a bad play in my opinion...

 

If you're playing DP/DC and a 6 or 8 comes up and you DON'T take it - you're a sucker. Once you put your $ on the DC and a 7 or 11 doesn't roll YOU have the edge.

[Deckhawk]

If you're playing DP/DC and a 6 or 8 comes up and you DON'T take it - you're a sucker. Once you put your $ on the DC and a 7 or 11 doesn't roll YOU have the edge.

 

I think I just said that above??

[Deckhawk]

That's what we call a stroker. Either make a bet, or don't make a bet. But, to place the 6 or 8 for $6 when you have a $10 don't come or don't pass bet on the number is a j*ck off move.

 

Make $100 don't bets and place the 4 and 10 for $60 or the 5 and 9 for $75, and the 6 and 8 for $90, then you're REALLY going to make some $$. LOL.

 

O, wait, 22.22% of the time you're going to lose your $100 when a 7 or 11 rolls and only 8.3333% of the time you'll win on a 2 or 3.

 

That's quite a cute post, but you add zero value to the discussion. Call it a stroker or whatever else you want, but it makes sense. The system of hedging is based on consistent, small returns with strict loss limits. By hedging like I write above, you can withstand the rallies and then capitalize when the table turns. I've been playing it over the past three years and haven't done too bad....or heard of a better way to make consistent returns. If you have a better idea, feel free to fill in a stroker like myself...

[Mr. Luckytoo]

I think I just said that above??

 

NOPE. You talked about hedging when a 6 or 8 rolled when playing DC.

 

I don't hedge...I don't take insurance in BJ either

[grod19]

That's quite a cute post, but you add zero value to the discussion. Call it a stroker or whatever else you want, but it makes sense. The system of hedging is based on consistent, small returns with strict loss limits. By hedging like I write above, you can withstand the rallies and then capitalize when the table turns. I've been playing it over the past three years and haven't done too bad....or heard of a better way to make consistent returns. If you have a better idea, feel free to fill in a stroker like myself...

 

if you run the numbers you will see that by hedging your bet you are actually costing yourself money in the long run. in the short run anything is possible

[darrween483]

There is a reason for casino spends the extra $.50 in ink to have the 4 and 10 put on the layout, those numbers do roll.

 

_______________________

Internet marketing

[riverboatgambler]

The true odds of your original bet is 2.44%. A relatively good bet, however, there are better bets that will reduce your odds under 2% (pass or dont pass with odds).

 

By hedging against your 4 and 10 by betting the hardway you are making a bet that gives the house an 11.11% advantage.

 

The casino has a saying for players playing systems like the one you are using..."Welcome".

 

You might win in the short term but the house will chew this system up in the long run.