Jones Act vent!

[fridayeyes]

Hi, folks,

This is rant, and concerns another cruise line but I'm posting here because I consider the Celeb board my home.

Next week, I'm sailing solo from San Diego to Vancouver, with a stop in Victoria. I have a friend who lives in upper BC who decided to come down so we could spend the weekend after the cruise together in Vancouver. As we considered how to handle Victoria, we discussed my leaving the cruise a day early and getting a landside hotel. We added up the cost of a waterfront hotel, meals, ferry, and rental car, and came up with a figure that was powerfully close to my cruise fare!

So, then the bright idea hit - if he paid for the cruise, he could just join me on the ship in Victoria and we'd both disembark in Vancouver. No ferry, no extra hotel and my friend who's never cruised would get a taste of what it's like.

Now, I already knew about the Jones Act, but I called the cruiseline anyway. I mean, on this cruise, if you miss your flight to San Diego, Victoria is the first place you would be able to catch up with the ship, and my friend is a Canadian citizen who was willing to pay the whole cruise fare for one night onboard.

Well, the cruise line says no dice. I even asked what would happen to passengers who miss the San Diego boarding, and they said that because of the Jones Act, anyone who misses the ship in San Diego would have to forfeit the entire cruise.

To be clear, my beef is with the Act, not with the cruise line in question, but it goes to show just how stupid (and likely unintended) the ramifications of of outdated trade legislation can be! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

Cheers,

Friday

[stutay]

I know how bad the Jones Act can be. There was one instance in Hawaii on the Infinity last year where someone and his wife got off in Hilo to stay with his brother for the night outside Hilo, and he was going to join up with the ship the next day in Kona. Low and behold, the US Immigration/Customs officer would not let him back on the ship in Kona until he payed a $350 penalty under the Jones Act.

[fridayeyes]

Oddly enough, I see a May 28, 2 night Celeb cruise (one listing says Infinity, one says Summit) that goes Vancouver-Victoria-Vancouver. I wonder what gives with that one?

Cheers,

Friday

[newtocc]

[B]Ok, don’t get me started on this again, I hate being a mean guy![/B]
Jones Misnomer
The US law that can make life difficult for a cruiser dates from 113 years ago, and is called the "Passenger Services Act," but Senator Wesley L. Jones, who sponsored a 1920 Merchant Marine Act amendment relating to the shipping of MERCHANDISE, not passengers, has unfairly been tagged as the author of the restrictions on what a foreign cruise ship may do or not do in US waters. The basic rule is that "foreign" ships may not carry passengers (whether Americans or others) between US ports, subject to certain exceptions.
Purpose
It's hard to disagree with the basic purpose of the Passenger Services Act (the "PSA") which the US Marine Administration Branch describes as "assuring reliable domestic shipping service that is completely subject to national control in times of war or national emergency." The Administration also states that "the money earned by these vessels remains in the national economy as opposed to being exported, while public revenues benefit from both corporate and personal tax receipts."
What's A Foreign Ship?
If you're cruising on a ship such as the Carnival Destiny, with 85% of the passengers being American, an American captain and officers, and an entertainment and cruise staff which is largely American, it's difficult to believe that this ship is "foreign." [B]But check the ship's "registration" - on the stern of the ship and on the lifeboats, it will say "Panama" or "Monrovia" (capital of Liberia), or "Bahamas" or somewhere other than the USA - meaning that the ship is registered in that "convenient" country, and therefore not subject, among other things, to American employment standards or US income taxes, despite the fact that (in the case of the Carnival Destiny), its ultimate owner is Carnival Corporation, a publicly traded company on the US stock market.[/B]
All major cruise lines, including Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, Carnival, Princess, Holland America, Celebrity and Crystal, have "foreign-flagged" vessels. To be an "American-flagged" ship, the ship must be primarily fabricated in the US, totally assembled in the US, have an American crew and be registered in the US.

[B]Maybe we should re-flag, the Seattle Ferry’s, or the Cape May Ferry’s, how about the Delta Queen, lets see more Americans loose jobs, maybe we can outsource your job to India, I guess that would be an inconvenience too, long commute huh?[/B]

This ship 10/91
That ship 11/95
Whatever ship 12/98
here a ship 13/99
there a ship 14/00
everywhere
a
ship ship 15/05

<font size="3" color=red>Over 1 year</font> into my LMBO cruise

[BEAV]

The Passenger Services/Jones Act is a US law governing foreign [I]flagged [/I] ships (such as Holland America, Celebrity, etc).

Since Infinity and Summit are both [I]foreign[/I] [I]flagged[/I], the United States has no bearing over what itineraries these ships sail in foreign countries, such as the Vancouver-Victoria-Vancouver sailing.

We learned about this US law the hard way two years ago. We booked a weird back-to-back on Holland America. First cruise was San Francisco to Vancouver (two nights). Then a one night cruise Vancouver-Seattle. Ten days before sailing, with tickets in hand, Holland America notified us that US Immigrations had reviewed the passenger list and noticed we were on both sailings. The problem? In their eyes, we were sailing one-way between two US ports (SF & Seattle). The only way to sail [I]one-way[/I] between [I]two US ports[/I] is if you visit a [B]distant foreign [/B] port along the way. Vancouver isn't designated as "distant foreign". Holland America offered to pay the $300 per person violation to keep from disturbing us, but Immigrations refused and simply said we couldn't sail itinerary as it was.

Whenever I post this info, people [I]always[/I] ask how then can someone sail from California to Florida (one-way sailing between two US ports). The answer is that the Antillies (Aruba, Curacao, etc) and any South American country (Columbia) are considered [B]distant foreign[/B]. This is why Panama Canal sailings between California & Florida make a stop at either Aruba or Cartegena, Columbia. Those are the "qualifying stops" on the itinerary.

Crystal - 6/11/04 Harmony to Alaska
Celebrity (6)
NCL (5)
Princess (4)
Disney (2)
Royal Caribbean (2)
HAL (1)

[This message was edited by BEAV on 04-26-04 at 09:03 PM.]

[fridayeyes]

BEAV!! You're still here! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] I was part of the Infinity crowd on that May coastal-Alaska run with you and all the other CCers. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Good to see you.

Thing is, the ship in my scenario above is HAL's Ryndam, also foreign flagged. I wonder if the agent who said my friend couldn't board was mistaken, maybe forgetting that Vancouver/ Victoria involve Canadian law and not American.

Now I'm certainly no legal expert, but I can't figure how how US customs think they would have any say over a Canadian citizen who is travelling between two entirely Canadian ports. And if Canada has its own version of the Jones Act, Celeb is gonna have a hard time with that V-V-V cruise.

I emailed HAL, so we'll see what they say.

Cheers,

Friday

[BEAV]

I'm afraid they're still right, since your sailing [I]originates[/I] in the US, much different than the Vancouver-Victoria-Vancouver itinerary. But keep plugging away!

Good to "see" you too! I figured that was you...but wasn't sure!

At any rate, have a great cruise and have fun with your friend! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

Crystal - 6/11/04 Harmony to Alaska
Celebrity (6)
NCL (5)
Princess (4)
Disney (2)
Royal Caribbean (2)
HAL (1)

[reggierail]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fridayeyes:
Oddly enough, I see a May 28, 2 night Celeb cruise (one listing says Infinity, one says Summit) that goes Vancouver-Victoria-Vancouver. I wonder what gives with that one?

Cheers,

Friday<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, a ship sailing from exclusively Canadian ports would not be subject to the Jones Act.
second, a ship sailing round trip from Vancouver, even if it was a US port, would not be covered by the act.
The Jones Act only applies to a foriegn flagged vessel sailing between 2 different US ports without visiting a deep (distant) foriegn port.

Reggie [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Rhapsody 10-17-04

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Mercury 12-06-04

Monarch - Sometime soon



Viking Serenade 1998
Viking Serenade 1999
Voyager of the Seas 2000
Viking Serenade 2001
Majesty of the Seas 11-2002
Norwegian Sea 11-2002
Vision of the Seas 11-2002
Mercury 5-03-03
Monarch of the Seas 6-09-03
Mercury 10-12-03
Monarch 11-17-03
Monarch 1-19-04
Monarch 3-29-04

God bless the USA and all freedom loving people. May God protect all those who fight and die to protect those freedoms.

[thenewkid]

Thank you Newt and Reggie. NOW I get it...

[img]http://www.regalweb.co.uk/loony/animated/wine.gif[/img]
Millie Med. Cruise
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[reggierail]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thenewkid:
Thank you Newt and Reggie. NOW I get it...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great, glad we could help. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Now, could you explain it to me [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

Reggie [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[fridayeyes]

LOL, I'm glad newkid gets it, but I'm afraid I don't.

At this point, this has become a purely intellectual exercise for me, as we'll probably just do the landside thing. But for the sake of debate, here's the scenario and my understanding of how the Jones Act/PSA does or does not apply.

A foreign-flagged ship departs from San Diego, makes a port of call in Victoria, Canada and terminates in Vancouver Canada. It never visits a second US port and therefore cannot permenantly disembark passengers in the US. The Act permits foreign-flagged vessels to board passengers at a US port and disembark them at a near-foreign port (Canada or Mexico). The Act also allows a foreign-flagged vessel to board passengers at a US port and visit other US port so long as no passengers are permanently disembarked at any subsequent US port. The act does NOT permit foreign-flagged vessels to embark from one US port and terminate at another US port unless it has called at a distant-foreign port along the way. Phew!!

The hypothetical question is this: If a passenger who is booked San Diego-Vancouver boards in Victoria, Canada and disembarks in Vancouver, Canada, how is this a violation of the Jones Act? The passenger in question did not visit ANY US port, much less two of them, nor did the passenger board or disembark at any US port.

As I said, this is not about getting around the rules, and truly, it is now only an academic question. Can anyone explain it?

Cheers,

Friday

(If a cruise ship travelling north at 50 knots passes an albatross flying south-by-southwest at 10 knots, how many bottles of alcohol can be smuggled onboard in its carry-on?)

[Guest]

Is that a European or an African albatross?

Jubilee 1991 Solar Eclipse
Century FO 1996 E Carib
Mercury FO 1998 W Carib
Galaxy SS 2000 Alaska IP
Infinity FV 2002 S Carib
Horizon HS 3/05 W Carib

[Sekhmet]

Who's this Albert Ross I keep hearing about?

I thought you were discussing somebody called Jones?

[Guest]

Wow, Newt I'm really impressed.

Don

[woodofpine]

In recent generations, the "Jones" act has done little or nothing to increase the supply of US flagged ships (au contraire). As a result of that failure, it has pretty much irradicated port to port passenger transportation within the U.S.

Of course, the Jones Act it is anachronistic to present legislation and policy that encourages the export "outsourcing" of employment and production. [My aging mom was amazed recently when she learned her one hour 1-800 phone call to Austin Tex. Dell was handled - admirably - by a service person in the Phillipines].

Ah - but old legislation dies hard... What will the brillient minds of Congress come up with next (just remember: they're there to help you!) [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[reggierail]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fridayeyes:
The hypothetical question is this: If a passenger who is booked San Diego-Vancouver boards in Victoria, Canada and disembarks in Vancouver, Canada, how is this a violation of the Jones Act? The passenger in question did not visit ANY US port, much less two of them, nor did the passenger board or disembark at any US port.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Jones Act has nothing to do with traveling from Victoria to Vancouver. There may however be some kind of law, pact or regulation that prohibits this in Canada. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

Reggie [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[marco]

However, my guess is the answer is "no" becuase it just involves too much work and effort on behalf of the cruise line.

[DawnCt]

Does the Jones Act explain the Millie's itinerary, FLL to DR to PR to St Thomas and then Nassau and back to FLL?

Dawn,Ct.

[reggierail]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DawnCt:
Does the Jones Act explain the Millie's itinerary, FLL to DR to PR to St Thomas and then Nassau and back to FLL?

Dawn,Ct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the Jones Act doesn't apply to ships sailing round trip from the same US port.

Reggie

[BEAV]

Reggie's right (has a nice ring to it, huh?)

A [B]One-Way [/B] sailing between [B]two different [/B] US ports must call at a [B]distant foreign port. [/B]
A [B]Round Trip [/B] sailing from the [I]same[/I] US port can call at [B]any[/B] foreign port. Doesn't have to be a distant one.

Crystal - 6/11/04 Harmony to Alaska
Celebrity (6)
NCL (5)
Princess (4)
Disney (2)
Royal Caribbean (2)
HAL (1)

[newtocc]

Wood, such big words, [I]anachronistic[/I], I had to look that baby up, because I ain’t be that smart!
The Jones Act helps preserve a viable American maritime industry. It provides an estimated 125,000 American jobs.
The Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA),(which is what we are discussing), is a companion law to the Jones Act, covers domestic cruises and ferries. The government of Panama is pressing the U.S. Customs Service to change the Central American country’s designation as a “nearby foreign port” to that of a “distant foreign port.” If that happens, then Panama could avoid parts of the law that block foreign-flag cruise ships from carrying passengers from one U.S. port to another.
It’s no stretch to say that, without the Jones Act, the U.S. eventually would be forced to rely on foreign-flag ships to supply American forces overseas with vital materiel.
Isn’t it’s just good common sense to recognize that without Jones Act vessels and their U.S. crews, America would depend on foreigners to deliver the 2 billion barrels of refined petroleum products on U.S. waters currently handled each year by U.S.-flag ships!
Maybe your just worried the price of your next vacation may increase, life’s a b*tch isn’t it?

This ship 10/91
That ship 11/95
Whatever ship 12/98
here a ship 13/99
there a ship 14/00
everywhere
a
ship ship 15/05

<font size="3" color=red>Over 1 year</font> into my LMBO cruise

[JamesOne]

Newt,

Is there a website where I can read the relevant act (Jones/PSA) that you use for your source of the information provided?

James

[newtocc]

James, here's one of many links, I found this quickly, so I don't know how good it is, follow the links they provide, to read the law for yourself!

If anyone wants to give me a hard time over this, the mean guy is dying to come out, I love the US Merchant Marine! Don't give me a hard time, this thread will go on forever!

This ship 10/91
That ship 11/95
Whatever ship 12/98
here a ship 13/99
there a ship 14/00
everywhere
a
ship ship 15/05

<font size="3" color=red>Over 1 year</font> into my LMBO cruise

[wieslaw]

Here is one link and there is a lot more;

[url="http://www.state.hi.us/dbedt/hecon/he7-99/psa.html"]http://www.state.hi.us/dbedt/hecon/he7-99/psa.html[/url]

Wes

[reggierail]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by newtocc:

If anyone wants to give me a hard time over this, the mean guy is dying to come out, I love the US Merchant Marine! Don't give me a hard time, this thread will go on forever!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You won't get a hard time from me Newt.
There is a lot more to this than just a cruiser getting from one US port to another. I'm sure that there are many parts of this law that are vital to the economy and security of the US.
It's a real change to see this side of you Newt and some just thought you were the Joker. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Reggie [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]