What is going on with Celebrity?

[Orator]

But thats the point, it really comes down to a matter of chance and your extensive cruising history reflects that chances are good most people won't have problems.

 

Not booking a particular ship might make one feel better, but the chance of an outbreak on any other ship won't change. You could avoid the Solstice and book the Eclipse for a cruise either a month or a year from now. Then the Eclipse could start having a lot of cases and countless threads would express frustration for the Eclipse.

 

You are most certainly correct if one considers booking even a few months out. Let me be a bit more specific. I usually do last minute bookings when flights are not required. Last week some friends wanted me to cruise on the Solstice with them on Jan 15th. I decided to decline largely due to the continued noro problems on that fine shipand booked Milliefor that time slot instead. Perhaps I'm overly concerned, but as they say:" Once bitten...." I make choices that are most comfortable for me. Others certainly have a higher toleration for risk and make different choices.

[Bridge Maven]

One must recognize that the suits in Miami are most concerned about the bottom line. Their goal is to increase the profit margin as much as possible. The staff on the ships are for the most part, concerned with pleasing the guest. Their goal is to provide an enjoyable experience. In large part their fate is in the hands of their guests since postive comments are a major part of the promotion evaluation process. The two goals are often in conflict with each other. There have been recent cutbacks in the amount Celebrity budgets per day for food. Chef's have complained that this makes the quality product more difficult to obtain. Some ingedients are now so costly (Colorado Lamb, for example) that they can no longer be used. Maitre 'ds tell me they receive more complaints and would like to see a increase in the food budget. The suits justify cutbacks as necessary to satisfy revenue requirements.They might argue that recent earnings reports indicate strong bookings at higher rates support their decisions. X is not alone in looking for ways to cut costs.My guess is that the crew position will gain strength only when the cutbacks appear to hurt the bottom line.Certainly, that's not what's happening now. May not be happy with the new reality, but that's the reality and not just for Celebrity.

 

Orator, that is true but when Celebrity made the decision to greatly increase their number of berths to fill, they must have realized that there aren't enough people who are willing to pay more for a superior overall cruise experience and they would have to start competing on price.

 

Basically, there are two ways for a business to be profitable. One is to do it on volume where you don't make much per item, and the other is to have a small company where you make a lot more profit per item and can afford to focus on quality. Needless to say, the first business model attracts people who are looking for the best price and the second business model attracts people who are more concerned with the quality of the product than its price.

[pamstravel]

One must recognize that the suits in Miami are most concerned about the bottom line. Their goal is to increase the profit margin as much as possible. The staff on the ships are for the most part, concerned with pleasing the guest. Their goal is to provide an enjoyable experience. In large part their fate is in the hands of their guests since postive comments are a major part of the promotion evaluation process. The two goals are often in conflict with each other. There have been recent cutbacks in the amount Celebrity budgets per day for food. Chef's have complained that this makes the quality product more difficult to obtain. Some ingedients are now so costly (Colorado Lamb, for example) that they can no longer be used. Maitre 'ds tell me they receive more complaints and would like to see a increase in the food budget. The suits justify cutbacks as necessary to satisfy revenue requirements.They might argue that recent earnings reports indicate strong bookings at higher rates support their decisions. X is not alone in looking for ways to cut costs.My guess is that the crew position will gain strength only when the cutbacks appear to hurt the bottom line.Certainly, that's not what's happening now. May not be happy with the new reality, but that's the reality and not just for Celebrity.

 

I think that you are 100% correct in your observations. I might add that the more hungry, in need of a job, lower tier employees really make every attempt to please and be helpful, even in difficult situations. Perhaps the higher employees have become too complacent and comfortable in their jobs.

 

There is just simply no excuse for poor entertainment...there is a wealth of talented individuals in the world who would love to have a chance on a cruise ship.

[Orator]

Orator, that is true but when Celebrity made the decision to greatly increase the number of berths to fill, they must have realized that there aren't enough people who are willing to pay more for a superior overall cruise experience and they would have to start competing on price.

 

Basically, there are two ways for a business to be profitable. One is to do it on volume where you don't make much per item, and the other is to have a small company where you make a lot more profit per person. However, the first business model attracts people who are looking for the best price and the second business model attracts people who are more concerned with the quality of the product than its price.

 

Correct and that's the rub. You've been on these boards long enought to read the many, many threads that ask what people prefer? Do we want "all inclusive, or a la carte pricing? Would we be willing to pay more for "better" meals in the MDR, or are we okay with the status quo? If I remember correctly lower base price wins all the time. My guess is that the Miami Suits have reached the same conclusion.

[DocJohnB]

now multiply poor service, substandard entertainment, a dull and inept activities staff, overworked and irritated dining and steward workers and at least half of the 3000 passengers whining and complaining (and rightfully so imho) by 8 sea days --6 of them consecutive--and you will understand how this ended up a below average cruise.

 

OK, OK, Bonsat, I have read your post(s) regarding this transatlantic and have not responded prior to this because I feel ALL are entitled to their own opinions, but this post I can't/won't let go by without comment.

 

I was also on this transatlantic.

 

Poor service - I did not experience this in any area of the ship, ever. I did experience a sorely overworked service staff (I believe the 2 sailing before ours suffered from norovirus outbreaks). The service staff did a Herculean job in trying to satisfy cruisers throughout the cruisers.

 

Substandard entertainment - for the most part I have to agree. Although there was some pretty good "acts", for the most part it was "run of the mill" entertainment. Good, but not exceptional.

 

Dull and inept activities staff - again agree. Stewart (Stuart) was on the first cruise of his current contract, but unless he totally changes his "persona", he just doesn't hack it as a CD, IMO.

 

Overworked and irritated service staff (dining & steward). Overworked - absolutely, due to the "double duty" these folks had to pull to keep up with the "noro" procedures. Irritated - maybe in your eyes, but certainly not in mine. NOT ONCE during the 13 day cruise did I observe any "irritability" amongst the staff. Even though they certainly had to be running on reserve effort at times they were ALWAYS, ALWAYS, friendly, courteous, smiling and gracious in their dealings with me. Perhaps that is because I was the same in my dealings with them . . . . . just a thought.

 

At least half of the 3000 passengers whining and complaining (and rightfully so imho) by 8 sea days --6 of them consecutive - NOW THIS STATEMENT IS WHAT LED TO MY ANSWERING. First of all, while I did see more than a few whiners and complainers, I think you highly overestimate their numbers at one half. But you also say that that number were whining and complaining (and you think rightfully so) by the number of sea days on the transatlantic voyage. REALLY, how many consecutive sea days should there have been, or in total. I believe if you want to traverse the Atlantic in any less than 6 days, airplane service is about the only means to do so.

 

Could this transatlantic cruise have been better - absolutely. Had it not been for the "noro" problems of this and the prior two cruises, I am pretty certain it would have been.

 

Did I get my money's worth on this cruise - you betcha!

 

Would I do another transatlantic? On Celebrity? Yes and yes.

[smtcan]

John B

 

You have expressed my feeling exactly! It was not the best cruise we have been on, but certainly we saw nothing that would cause us to change cruise lines and we would do a TA on Solstice again in a heartbeat.

 

Sheila

[dmk]

 

OK, OK, Bonsat, I have read your post(s) regarding this transatlantic and have not responded prior to this because I feel ALL are entitled to their own opinions, but this post I can't/won't let go by without comment.

 

I was also on this transatlantic.

 

Poor service - I did not experience this in any area of the ship, ever. I did experience a sorely overworked service staff (I believe the 2 sailing before ours suffered from norovirus outbreaks). The service staff did a Herculean job in trying to satisfy cruisers throughout the cruisers.

 

Substandard entertainment - for the most part I have to agree. Although there was some pretty good "acts", for the most part it was "run of the mill" entertainment. Good, but not exceptional.

 

Dull and inept activities staff - again agree. Stewart (Stuart) was on the first cruise of his current contract, but unless he totally changes his "persona", he just doesn't hack it as a CD, IMO.

 

Overworked and irritated service staff (dining & steward). Overworked - absolutely, due to the "double duty" these folks had to pull to keep up with the "noro" procedures. Irritated - maybe in your eyes, but certainly not in mine. NOT ONCE during the 13 day cruise did I observe any "irritability" amongst the staff. Even though they certainly had to be running on reserve effort at times they were ALWAYS, ALWAYS, friendly, courteous, smiling and gracious in their dealings with me. Perhaps that is because I was the same in my dealings with them . . . . . just a thought.

 

At least half of the 3000 passengers whining and complaining (and rightfully so imho) by 8 sea days --6 of them consecutive - NOW THIS STATEMENT IS WHAT LED TO MY ANSWERING. First of all, while I did see more than a few whiners and complainers, I think you highly overestimate their numbers at one half. But you also say that that number were whining and complaining (and you think rightfully so) by the number of sea days on the transatlantic voyage. REALLY, how many consecutive sea days should there have been, or in total. I believe if you want to traverse the Atlantic in any less than 6 days, airplane service is about the only means to do so.

 

Could this transatlantic cruise have been better - absolutely. Had it not been for the "noro" problems of this and the prior two cruises, I am pretty certain it would have been.

 

Did I get my money's worth on this cruise - you betcha!

 

Would I do another transatlantic? On Celebrity? Yes and yes.

 

I was on the same cruise. Well done, DocJohnB and well stated!

Check out our roll call for this cruise. Except for a few people, everybody enjoyed themselves. :)

[mrjim]

One must recognize that the suits in Miami are most concerned about the bottom line. Their goal is to increase the profit margin as much as possible. The staff on the ships are for the most part, concerned with pleasing the guest. Their goal is to provide an enjoyable experience. In large part their fate is in the hands of their guests since postive comments are a major part of the promotion evaluation process. The two goals are often in conflict with each other. There have been recent cutbacks in the amount Celebrity budgets per day for food. Chef's have complained that this makes the quality product more difficult to obtain. Some ingedients are now so costly (Colorado Lamb, for example) that they can no longer be used. Maitre 'ds tell me they receive more complaints and would like to see a increase in the food budget. The suits justify cutbacks as necessary to satisfy revenue requirements.They might argue that recent earnings reports indicate strong bookings at higher rates support their decisions. X is not alone in looking for ways to cut costs.My guess is that the crew position will gain strength only when the cutbacks appear to hurt the bottom line.Certainly, that's not what's happening now. May not be happy with the new reality, but that's the reality and not just for Celebrity.

 

Do you know when the cutbacks have taken place?

[Orator]

Do you know when the cutbacks have taken place?

 

They've been ongoing, but many this past year. Those new ships and refits have increased debt and they need to pay for it.

[bonsat]

In reading posts from this website the more I see how many people have this sense of entitlement and boy if one thing goes wrong they are the first to start with the negative reviews. What I also find funny is that the people that are always complaining are the ones that have 2 - 3 more cruises already booked. Either I am the luckiest person when it comes to cruises or maybe it's just how I treat the staff but in all my cruises I have had maybe 1 waiter that wasn't very good. And before you start analyzing how many posts I don't have I will tell you that I am an Elite member. I know long before I board the ship that I may or may not see my room steward everyday - if my room is clean I don't care. I already know that the eggs in the buffet line will be cold and runny, I am fully aware that the comedian may or may not be that funny and I am also aware that I probably won't win much if any in the casino. We aren't in the days of the Titanic!

 

well aren't you special!!!

[Christine Frances]

well aren't you special!!!

 

Wow - where did that come from:confused:

[Bridge Maven]

Correct and that's the rub. You've been on these boards long enought to read the many, many threads that ask what people prefer? Do we want "all inclusive, or a la carte pricing? Would we be willing to pay more for "better" meals in the MDR, or are we okay with the status quo? If I remember correctly lower base price wins all the time. My guess is that the Miami Suits have reached the same conclusion.

 

Orator, I agree with you that every time the topic has come up there were very few people who were willing to pay higher cruise fares in exchange for better food in main dining room, etc. That is probably one of the reasons why Celebrity feels they are better off cutting corners than providing a better product at a higher cost.

[itf]

Got to admit that (for my third Celebrity cruise in as many years) I thought the activities side was lacking this time on the Equinox. It felt like they wanted you in the bars etc... (which makes sense for them) rather than providing activities. My other half loves scrapbooking - on the Millie last year this happened three times - only once on the Equinox despite more sea days. It also felt like there wasn't as much going on for sea days - less trivia etc...

[pamstravel]

I agree that overall the price of cruising seems to be less than what we paid years ago and I am sure this is reflected in the quality of the food. However, I think that one of the areas that X could shine is in the entertainment. As I said earlier, there is a wealth of talented people in the world many of whom I feel would love to get the exposure of a cruise ship.

 

I have seen cruise directors who really made a cruise fun.....even in bad conditions. This cruise director was seldom seen and I can assure you that he wasn't spending time thinking of fun things to do.

 

The norovirus made it very difficult for the staff but most of them and the passengers took it in stride and were understanding. My biggest complaint is with the higher tier crew, the cruise director in particular, and some others.

 

I can't for the life of me understand why the bars and casino closed so early, people were literally told to vacate the premises. Live music was almost nil and some of it was about on par with a local bar. If your idea of a fun cruise is to sit in the cabin in the evening and read or watch TV then this is the ship for you.

[Bridge Maven]

I agree that overall the price of cruising seems to be less than what we paid years ago and I am sure this is reflected in the quality of the food. However, I think that one of the areas that X could shine is in the entertainment. As I said earlier, there is a wealth of talented people in the world many of whom I feel would love to get the exposure of a cruise ship.

 

I have seen cruise directors who really made a cruise fun.....even in bad conditions. This cruise director was seldom seen and I can assure you that he wasn't spending time thinking of fun things to do.

 

The norovirus made it very difficult for the staff but most of them and the passengers took it in stride and were understanding. My biggest complaint is with the higher tier crew, the cruise director in particular, and some others.

 

I can't for the life of me understand why the bars and casino closed so early, people were literally told to vacate the premises. Live music was almost nil and some of it was about on par with a local bar. If your idea of a fun cruise is to sit in the cabin in the evening and read or watch TV then this is the ship for you.

 

Pamstravel, when there isn't much to do people spend more money at bars and in the casino. I couldn't understand why Celebrity eliminated its bridge program when it always had so many participants, and was told that passengers can't spend money in the bars and at the casino while they are playing bridge.

[jgnova]

I attribute most of these problems to Celebrity's failure to differentiate itself from other lines and / or to effectively communicate that differentiation. Celebrity had the image of being a slightly upscale line and attracted passengers who didn't want the water slides, climbing walls, and movies all day. But they've been floundering at defining their customer demographic and their desires.

 

Examples:

 

How much money are they spending on the S-class ships and their evolving designs? Glass blowing, changing restaurants, adding new suites. Effective market research with focus groups might have told them what was wanted and how much people would pay.

 

New a la carte restaurants in which they keep offering deals because they're not selling as well as they expected. Maybe offering them all at no charge for some number of meals per sailing - and charging more for the cruise - but telling people what they get vs other lines.

 

We live in the DC area. Between government workers and the various contractors, we probably have one of the highest incomes, highest levels of education, and greatest number of baby-boomers on the verge of retirement within a two hour drive of the Baltimore port than anywhere else in the country. To the best of my knowledge, they never marketed themselves before pulling out of the market.

 

I spent almost 20 years in marketing and all I kept hearing was price competition. I can tell you from experience that "up selling" is easy and effective if you can show the customer value. Celebrity had that value but stopped talking about it. And now is losing that value. How do Oceania, Crystal, and Seabourne sell?

 

j

[mrjim]

I attribute most of these problems to Celebrity's failure to differentiate itself from other lines and / or to effectively communicate that differentiation. Celebrity had the image of being a slightly upscale line and attracted passengers who didn't want the water slides, climbing walls, and movies all day. But they've been floundering at defining their customer demographic and their desires.

 

Examples:

 

How much money are they spending on the S-class ships and their evolving designs? Glass blowing, changing restaurants, adding new suites. Effective market research with focus groups might have told them what was wanted and how much people would pay.

 

New a la carte restaurants in which they keep offering deals because they're not selling as well as they expected. Maybe offering them all at no charge for some number of meals per sailing - and charging more for the cruise - but telling people what they get vs other lines.

 

We live in the DC area. Between government workers and the various contractors, we probably have one of the highest incomes, highest levels of education, and greatest number of baby-boomers on the verge of retirement within a two hour drive of the Baltimore port than anywhere else in the country. To the best of my knowledge, they never marketed themselves before pulling out of the market.

 

I spent almost 20 years in marketing and all I kept hearing was price competition. I can tell you from experience that "up selling" is easy and effective if you can show the customer value. Celebrity had that value but stopped talking about it. And now is losing that value. How do Oceania, Crystal, and Seabourne sell?

 

j

 

Very well said! It's also interesting how often they change their branding. Since 2005 they used "A true departure", "Starring you", "Designed for you" and now "Modern Luxury".

 

I like Celebrity very much and find especially the Solstice class stunning. It's sad to see that the quality is slowly going down.

 

Since I don't enjoy the food and the service in MDR not as much as in the past I booked AQ for my next cruise. So I'm definitely willing to pay for quality. I hope it meets my expectations.

[Bridge Maven]

I attribute most of these problems to Celebrity's failure to differentiate itself from other lines and / or to effectively communicate that differentiation. Celebrity had the image of being a slightly upscale line and attracted passengers who didn't want the water slides, climbing walls, and movies all day. But they've been floundering at defining their customer demographic and their desires.

 

Examples:

 

How much money are they spending on the S-class ships and their evolving designs? Glass blowing, changing restaurants, adding new suites. Effective market research with focus groups might have told them what was wanted and how much people would pay.

 

New a la carte restaurants in which they keep offering deals because they're not selling as well as they expected. Maybe offering them all at no charge for some number of meals per sailing - and charging more for the cruise - but telling people what they get vs other lines.

 

We live in the DC area. Between government workers and the various contractors, we probably have one of the highest incomes, highest levels of education, and greatest number of baby-boomers on the verge of retirement within a two hour drive of the Baltimore port than anywhere else in the country. To the best of my knowledge, they never marketed themselves before pulling out of the market.

 

I spent almost 20 years in marketing and all I kept hearing was price competition. I can tell you from experience that "up selling" is easy and effective if you can show the customer value. Celebrity had that value but stopped talking about it. And now is losing that value. How do Oceania, Crystal, and Seabourne sell?

 

j

 

jgnova, your post is excellent :)

[ischeer]

I have noticed that for most of the Westbound Transatlantics next year (2012) the number of sea days has been increased, sometimes at the expense of ports. The cruise we took this year (Equinox) will have has 7 sea days after the Azores. The one we took last year (Eclipse) has eliminated one port, and added an additional sea day after the Azores. Any suggestions as to why these changes ?

[Lazz]

I attribute most of these problems to Celebrity's failure to differentiate itself from other lines and / or to effectively communicate that differentiation. Celebrity had the image of being a slightly upscale line and attracted passengers who didn't want the water slides, climbing walls, and movies all day. But they've been floundering at defining their customer demographic and their desires.

 

Examples:

 

How much money are they spending on the S-class ships and their evolving designs? Glass blowing, changing restaurants, adding new suites. Effective market research with focus groups might have told them what was wanted and how much people would pay.

 

New a la carte restaurants in which they keep offering deals because they're not selling as well as they expected. Maybe offering them all at no charge for some number of meals per sailing - and charging more for the cruise - but telling people what they get vs other lines.

 

We live in the DC area. Between government workers and the various contractors, we probably have one of the highest incomes, highest levels of education, and greatest number of baby-boomers on the verge of retirement within a two hour drive of the Baltimore port than anywhere else in the country. To the best of my knowledge, they never marketed themselves before pulling out of the market.

 

I spent almost 20 years in marketing and all I kept hearing was price competition. I can tell you from experience that "up selling" is easy and effective if you can show the customer value. Celebrity had that value but stopped talking about it. And now is losing that value. How do Oceania, Crystal, and Seabourne sell?

 

j

 

Well put!

 

The Port of Baltimore is great for me. I would drive down the day before. Many old time cruisers like me do not like the Ala Carte pricing. However, we still enjoy the cruise and the offerings that we come with the price of the cruise. My wife and I do not drink much, gamble little, and always eat in the MDR. I know the cruise lines don't like that. For many like me, it is about value and that is mine. AQ for me is a great value. A RC suite is the best value for me on that line. But, currently the limited summer carribean schedule has caused the value of all the lines to drop to practically zero.

[phdiva]

Rhetorical question: How much of this change has to do with 1) RCCL purchasing Celebrity and 2) the launch of the upscale Azamara?

[Bridge Maven]

Rhetorical question: How much of this change has to do with 1) RCCL purchasing Celebrity and 2) the launch of the upscale Azamara?

 

phdiva, I personally think that Azamara was created to provide the type of cruising experience that Celebrity was able to provide before they made the decision to create larger ships which would have to compete on price to fill all their berths.

[pamstravel]

I think that all you are correct that Celebrity has lost its identity. X used to be a brand that one could count on for being classy (but not stuffy), a little more expensive (but worth it), good food , a wide variety of music and activities (but no hairy leg type activities) a more affluent, educated clientele (but not overly impressed with themselves)....I could go on and on. I haven't really thought about it but perhaps the new, larger ships are part of the problem. I have noticed that fares on Celebrity are of late the same price or even less than those on the more discount lines. I guess that this could be largely attributed to the need to fill all those berths.

[jgnova]

Someone asked a question on this board yesterday and the question and response each demonstrate the point about Celebrity's identity. The poster wanted to know whether to take Summit or Brilliance on similar itineraries. The question itself demonstrates a lack of brand identification awareness (and therefore communication) by RCCL. The response:

 

What I like about Celebrity is that is just a classy cruise line. No obnoxious loud music by the pool. NO crazy contests or games with extra LOUD hosts. No constant badgering to shop shop shop. No extra reminders to tip constantly. I am already paying a premium to be on this ship and I will tip - no need to keep reminding me to pay more! There is just a real sense of relaxation in most areas of the ship. The staff on the Summit was just awesome. I can't say enough good things about them. Even the cruise director Alejandro was a joy - not the usual ego manic you might find in that position.

 

talks more about what Celebrity doesn't have than what it does. Prices are about the same and Celebrity's food is not what it was even 2 years ago unless you pay extra for the specialty dining rooms. People don't mind paying extra cost of an Acura or Cadillac, why doesn't Celebrity put the food and staffing levels back to what they had a few years ago, bump the prices $10 a day, and market themselves as the line for people who can appreciate the finer things in life?

 

Another example, we love the classical music groups they have - but they're never mentioned as features in the brochures. How many people might select Celebrity just to have that quieter entertainment every day and night if they knew it was available?

 

Our Caribbean Princess sailing had a great cocktail pianist doing show tunes every night - and we spent an hour or longer every night there, buying drinks and chatting with others. Our 2010/2011 Mercury sailing had something similar and we spent a lot of time with him. There was nothing close to that on our Summit sailing so we spent that time in our cabin. How many others did the same?

 

j

[tunaman2011]

After sailing on HAL and Princess for the last 5 years, we booked on Equinox for this winter's cruise. We wanted to try Celebrity because, in our opinion, both HAL and Princess had made cost cutbacks so that they could offer low consumer pricing and keep butts in the berths. The HAL and Princess cruises were very enjoyable and what they offered in no way could be considered bad, but it wasn't the same "premium" experience that is once was. After reading this board for the last several months, I am concerned that a similar approach is being followed by Celebrity. Celebrity has long been thought of as the best of all the non-super premium lines. But has the whole industry been diluted with overcapacity such that even Celebrity now is just a "nice" cruise?

 

We are lucky enough that we could sail Crystal or Seabourn or one of the other "super" lines, but they seem too much over the top for our taste. I hope at least one of the lines does finally realize that there are those of us who would not be comfortable in a Bentley but would like more amenities than a Chevy. As one poster already said, we would pay extra to get the Accura or Lexus.

 

Good Sailing

Tom