Leadft Posted January 23, 2012 #4226 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm confused about these new reports that there were undocumented workers aboard the ship, so the number of missing is inaccurate. 1) HOW could there be unregistered/off-record workers? Don't employees have to BOINK on and off the ship like the rest of us? Or do they just walk on and off, no questions asked? 2) WHY would there be "Illegals" working on the ship? Aren't cruise ships already known for following the "illegal immigrant" model of work as we consider employment here in the US? (They don't make salaries or minimum wage, and work mostly for tips/they don't get benefits such as health insurance 401k). Since this is ALREADY the employment model - why have undocumented workers? What are they getting out of working with no documentation? What is CCL getting from using undocumented workers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frediver Posted January 23, 2012 #4227 Share Posted January 23, 2012 And trained air traffic controllers still make mistakes. Leaving your home in the morning can be hazardous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles4515 Posted January 23, 2012 #4228 Share Posted January 23, 2012 And trained air traffic controllers still make mistakes.Leaving your home in the morning can be hazardous. That is true. That is why I take the elevator and don't jump out the window. No one human is infallible. That is why teamwork is preferable. A Captains ego should not result in a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frediver Posted January 23, 2012 #4229 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Please dont take this wrong but I truly think your solution would result in greater odds for a future disaster. How did you formulate your plan, what are you basing your ideas on, what experience do you have that would give the idea your ideas would work. You say you make life or death decisions what is your profession and how does it relate to proper Seamanship skills or Navigation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyjonesrugrat Posted January 23, 2012 #4230 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Please dont take this wrong but I truly think your solution would result in greater odds for a future disaster.How did you formulate your plan, what are you basing your ideas on, what experience do you have that would give the idea your ideas would work. You say you make life or death decisions what is your profession and how does it relate to proper Seamanship skills or Navigation? I asked him that already and Im still awaiting a reply, it does appear that most seem to see the errors of his suggestion and the problems entailed apart from himself. Rgds :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniall Posted January 23, 2012 #4231 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Unaill, I'm just relating it to a story a friend told a bunch of us about at dinner one. He was a piano man on one of my cruises (that we knew from various cruises.) In order to get his girlfriend on he told us he had to get permission from the HD, then guide her through a check-in area that we understood to be for crew to get her guest card, then security, which again we understood was for crew, for the day we were in port. This was a repositioning cruise and it had a port of call near where he lived in Spain.The next evening he told us a bit of the ending to his visit. Seems the girlfriend left the ship without scanning nor returning her card and security was pounding on his door at 4 a.m. looking for her. He emailed her to ask if she checked herself off the ship as she was suppose to. She responded no because she wanted to keep her card. She just walked off. :D Took security 8 hours to notice they didn't get the card returned. :rolleyes: Good story and it tends to confirm the idea that it's fairly easy to board as long as the HD and or Captain OK it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRL_Joanie Posted January 23, 2012 #4232 Share Posted January 23, 2012 That is true. That is why I take the elevator and don't jump out the window. No one human is infallible. That is why teamwork is preferable. A Captains ego should not result in a disaster. Sir, and I say this with all due respect, neither is an Air Traffic Controller Infallible, nor the driver of an automobile, nor a Train Engineer, nor the Pilot of an Airplane or any other position that could, and I repeat Could cause the death and/or severe injury of a human being. You are a cruiser with, as you yourself said, 4 cruises under your belt. I am a cruiser with, if I counted correctly 8 or 9 cruises under my belt. I do not question the information provided by people who seem to have a more comprehensive knowledge in the shipping industry than my measly 8 or 9 cruises. After all, I am a passenger and not the expert or even a semi arm chair expert. Listen, or should I say read, what is/has been said in over 4000 posts on this thread alone. We've had many experts in the shipping/cruising industry come in and give us their professional knowledge. We question some of their information, and they provide detailed replies. The man you are currently arguing with is an expert in his field in Northern Europe. He knows shipping, as you seem to know Air Traffic Control. If we listen/read and let both set in we will all be the wiser as we will have learned. EDITED TO ADD: We've even had a pilot pop in here today who has said that your system, or should I say the Air Traffic Control style that has been mentioned today would not work. Somewhere in todays posts, if you go back and read those from today, I believe late afternoon, you will find his single post to this thread. Joanie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachin2 Posted January 23, 2012 #4233 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What scheme? Were you born an air traffic controller? You were trained to do the job. Actually Charles - yes - controllers are born - not raised - is IS an instict thing. Can't tell you the number I've washed out. Too many to count. Unless you have taken steps in my shoes .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancher Dave Posted January 23, 2012 #4234 Share Posted January 23, 2012 According to the story in the link below, his wife is no longer in the house ... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2090052/Costa-Concordia-captain-Francesco-Schettinos-dramatic-cruise-ship-struck-rocks.html The comment about his wife leaving is at the end of the article. Can you blame her? I sure can't. Doubt you or anyone really would blame her for leaving given the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frediver Posted January 23, 2012 #4235 Share Posted January 23, 2012 IMO dead heading has no relation to this disaster other than the fact that more unlisted bodies might be found. A ship is not a bad tomb especially if you are a cruiser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsig Posted January 23, 2012 #4236 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What scheme? Were you born an air traffic controller? You were trained to do the job. So if I understand, you are proposing to have a third party organization somewhere in the world monitor every ship (or just cruise ships?, or cruise ships and ferries ?) in the world on a real time basis. And, these monitors have the ability to actually control the ship? Or,would they just give a warning? And what would they be warning? Too shallow, too close to land, too close to another ship, pirates in the area, storm ahead, big waves ahead ? The U.S. air traffic control system costs about $10 billion per year to operate to handle about 10,000,000 flights or about $1,000 per flight. Assuming you could put together this worldwide Cruise Ship Central Control for 1/10 the cost annually or $1 billion per year, and given there are about 6,800 cruises per year (15 million passengers, average ship 2200 passengers) then this will add only $147,000 per cruise just for additional operating cost not counting the infrastructure cost. Good luck selling this program to an industry that has had very few accidents that could have been prevented by this scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniall Posted January 23, 2012 #4237 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Originally posted by AstrocruisesHi Ozcruiser1, I'll share a table with you anytime. In response to your post, I would guess not many in the press corps know much about Robert Bosio, but we do find that stereotypes in press reports are not confined to one gender. Originally posted by OzcruiserI think a table shared with yourself, Milaandra, Davyjonesrugrat, judybee would make for wonderful evenings. I fear that if Uniall was to be assigned it might cause some conflict. But then again good discussions are often had with people with differing opinions. Oz First, I never met an Aussie I didn't like. :) Second, I've been know to buy two rounds back to back. :D Third, I can get along with people who disagree with me very easily. Sharon Rae and I met as opposing candidates for Alderman in Chicago and we celebrate our 23 anniversay in April. :eek: John PS My Dad used to say the only reason we weren't Australian was because his father saved enough money for the fare to America before the British came to arrest him. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuizer2 Posted January 23, 2012 #4238 Share Posted January 23, 2012 How would you know if cruising is safer than how I drive? You don't know me. If you mean that cruising is safer than driving in general that really is not the question. I actually don't have to drive but I have to cross the street. I don't have to cruise. Or I don't have to cruise on a Carnival brand. This disaster should not have happened. Thirty lives should not have ended. I was not referring to YOUR driving - I was referring to driving in general, just like we are referring to cruising in general. You also don't have to cross the street. You can work at home and use the Internet to order food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganMars Posted January 23, 2012 #4239 Share Posted January 23, 2012 There is another either picture or video that has the anchor in it and I am trying to find it now. It is from the opposite angle and you can see chain laid out, not just piled up. It isn't as close up a view and gives you a better idea as to the anchors proximity to the ship. Wish I had posted it when I first saw it. The video at this link appears to show two different anchors beginning at about 2:00. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9026582/Italian-divers-search-submerged-part-of-Costa-Concordia.html Thank you for these photo's some of them were extremely good for sourcing information. One picture I did notice was number 29 of the ships anchor. If you look behind the near anchor chain on the right of the anchor you can see a pile of chain on the seabed. This draws me to the conclusion that the anchor was not used to turn the vessel as I had previously believed as the chain would have been fairly taunt and not piled up like that. That, to me, indicates that the anchor was released when the vessel had already stopped. Any other mariners agree with my call? rgds :) That is one possible conclusion. Another could be that the anchor was dropped, the ships momentum carried it further on to the limit of the rode then the wind pushed the ship back over the anchor resulting in the jumbled mess of chain we see in the photo. Another possibility is that the first anchor seen in the above video was deployed while the ship was in motion and the other one with the chain piled on it was released when the vessel was stopped. Without knowing the precise position of the anchors it is difficult to say. Regards, MorganMars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuizer2 Posted January 23, 2012 #4240 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If someone is going do something unsafe I not only question them I take action to stop them. In my occupation I am required to do that. And if I am in charge my crew is required to take action. The same should be on the bridge of a ship. If the Captain is heading toward a crash then the crew should stop the ship. Who is to decide what is dangerous and what isn't? Not every dangerous action is obvious. And, having more than one person in charge (which is the situation you are creating) can be itself dangerous. Not everything is black & white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles4515 Posted January 23, 2012 #4241 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Sir, and I say this with all due respect, neither is an Air Traffic Controller Infallible, nor the driver of an automobile, nor a Train Engineer, nor the Pilot of an Airplane or any other position that could, and I repeat Could cause the death and/or severe injury of a human being. You are a cruiser with, as you yourself said, 4 cruises under your belt. I am a cruiser with, if I counted correctly 8 or 9 cruises under my belt. I do not question the information provided by people who seem to have a more comprehensive knowledge in the shipping industry than my measly 8 or 9 cruises. After all, I am a passenger and not the expert or even a semi arm chair expert. Listen, or should I say read, what is/has been said in over 4000 posts on this thread alone. We've had many experts in the shipping/cruising industry come in and give us their professional knowledge. We question some of their information, and they provide detailed replies. The man you are currently arguing with is an expert in his field in Northern Europe. He knows shipping, as you seem to know Air Traffic Control. If we listen/read and let both set in we will all be the wiser as we will have learned. EDITED TO ADD: We've even had a pilot pop in here today who has said that your system, or should I say the Air Traffic Control style that has been mentioned today would not work. Somewhere in todays posts, if you go back and read those from today, I believe late afternoon, you will find his single post to this thread. Joanie I never said I had 4 cruises. I have done 40 cruises. I think I have a right to cruise safely. It does not take an shipping industry expert to see that there needs to be a change in the cruise industry culture. Your experts have not explained why a ship should not have a control system. Air has control system. Railroads have a control system. As I said no human is infallible. That is why teamwork is the solution. Not relying on the Captain as god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyjonesrugrat Posted January 23, 2012 #4242 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The video at this link appears to show two different anchors beginning at about 2:00.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9026582/Italian-divers-search-submerged-part-of-Costa-Concordia.html That is one possible conclusion. Another could be that the anchor was dropped, the ships momentum carried it further on to the limit of the rode then the wind pushed the ship back over the anchor resulting in the jumbled mess of chain we see in the photo. Another possibility is that the first anchor seen in the above video was deployed while the ship was in motion and the other one with the chain piled on it was released when the vessel was stopped. Without knowing the precise position of the anchors it is difficult to say. Regards, MorganMars I thought the skipper might have done the 'right' thing with the anchors but it appears not. In the picture I can only see one anchor. There is another picture that shows the cable as 'up and down' (straight down from the ship and not at any angle) its not a good picture. But putting both together it appears that it was just dropped as an after thought of the captains.. This captains just didnt seem to follow any normal procedures did he? rgds :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyjonesrugrat Posted January 23, 2012 #4243 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I never said I had 4 cruises. I have done 40 cruises. I think I have a right to cruise safely. It does not take an shipping industry expert to see that there needs to be a change in the cruise industry culture. Your experts have not explained why a ship should not have a control system. Air has control system. Railroads have a control system. As I said no human is infallible. That is why teamwork is the solution. Not relying on the Captain as god. For the first time every Im throwing my hands up in dispair ! It must be good knowing all things nautical and all things command and control. Have you ever had any real sea time instead of cruising? Do you understand what Command and control systems on ships are? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganMars Posted January 23, 2012 #4244 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I thought the skipper might have done the 'right' thing with the anchors but it appears not. In the picture I can only see one anchor. There is another picture that shows the cable as 'up and down' (straight down from the ship and not at any angle) its not a good picture. But putting both together it appears that it was just dropped as an after thought of the captains.. This captains just didnt seem to follow any normal procedures did he? rgds :) Please look at the video again and pause it to take a good look at the anchor(s) and let me know what you think. They appear to be two different types and in two different positions. Regards, MorganMars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloHelloHola Posted January 23, 2012 #4245 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Often those with years of experience have difficulty adjusting to change. Therefore, inexperience is an asset? Sorry, excuse my silly late night logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles4515 Posted January 23, 2012 #4246 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I was not referring to YOUR driving - I was referring to driving in general, just like we are referring to cruising in general. You also don't have to cross the street. You can work at home and use the Internet to order food. But my home could burn down. My home, driving, crossing the street and cruises should be as safe as humanly possible and technically possible. The argument that cruising is safer than x is a loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyjonesrugrat Posted January 23, 2012 #4247 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Please look at the video again and pause it to take a good look at the anchor(s) and let me know what you think. They appear to be two different types and in two different positions. Regards, MorganMars Ok will have a look later and get back to you, have you message number to save me trawling through the masses for it. ......Its been a long night lol rgds :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuizer2 Posted January 23, 2012 #4248 Share Posted January 23, 2012 A cruise ship should not have been 10 seconds from disaster! The same can be said for two shuttle disasters: Columbia - Feb 1, 2003 Challenger - Jan 28, 1986 Both of these spaceships were being monitored by the best of the best, and they still had problems. Human error can be limited, but no eliminated. Besides - what happens when the person in the home office is the rouge that screws up??? That is what happened with John Glenn's Mercury flight ... Mercury Control was still undecided on the course of action to take. Some controllers thought the retrorocket pack should be jettisoned after retrofire, while other controllers thought the retro pack should be retained, as added assurance that the heat shield would stay in place. Flight Director Chris Kraft and Mission Director Walter C. Williams, decided to keep the retro pack in place during reentry. Walter Schirra, the California communicator at Point Arguello, relayed the instructions to Glenn: the retro pack should be retained until the spacecraft was over the Texas tracking station. After the mission was over, the "Segment 51" warning light problem was later determined to be a faulty sensor switch, meaning that the heat shield and landing bag were in fact secure during reentry. So, when the experts cannot agree and the proper course of action, who should make the final call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles4515 Posted January 23, 2012 #4249 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Therefore, inexperience is an asset? Sorry, excuse my silly late night logic. Of course not. Experience is an asset. But sometimes those with experience get into a routine and get complacent. That Concordia Captain had experience..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganMars Posted January 23, 2012 #4250 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Please look at the video again and pause it to take a good look at the anchor(s) and let me know what you think. They appear to be two different types and in two different positions. Regards, MorganMars Hang on. I think I've got screenshots to compare if I can upload them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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