RUMOR re Queen Victoria, and more!

[Druke I]

World Ocean and Cruise Liner Society is reporting that Queen Victoria's launch has been pushed back to 2008, and that it might be reassigned to something other than Cunard.

 

They are also reporting that QE2 may be retired by 2006, and that Pacific Princess and Tahitian Princess may be transferred to Cunard.

 

Such moves might infuriate both loyal Cunard fans and loyal Princess regulars!

[Cunard Cruiser]

Hi Mike

 

I called Cunard the other day about the QM2 and QE2 schedule. QE2 has a full schedule for that year all the way to December. I would think in QE2's final year that would be much PR to have it booked as they did in 2003 with her final trans season.

 

QM2 schedule is only to Dec 2nd and they haven't released any final dates for the remaining 2007.

 

It would be such a shame to tranfer princess ship over to cunard.

[PRINSENDAM]

World Ocean and Cruise Liner Society is reporting that Queen Victoria's launch has been pushed back to 2008, and that it might be reassigned to something other than Cunard.

 

They are also reporting that QE2 may be retired by 2006, and that Pacific Princess and Tahitian Princess may be transferred to Cunard.

 

Such moves might infuriate both loyal Cunard fans and loyal Princess regulars!

 

 

 

I read this today also. Don't know if there is any truth to it though other than the part about the QUEEN VICTORIA being delayed... in fact they have not yet even started construction.

 

I sincerely hope that QE2 does not go next year. I think it more likely that she will sail on until retirement in 2010. No quarantee there!

 

The positive bit of the news was about the possible transfer of the two small Princess ships to Cunard flag. I've sailed in the PACIFIC PRINCESS and she is a great little ship and I suspect she would be great as a Cunarder. I'd certainly go for it. They have a distinct old world charm about them. They could be the modern replacements for the SAGAFJORD and VISTAFJORD. I'd love to see the names FRANCONIA and CARMANIA revived. ( My first trip to sea was in the old FRANCONIA in 1967.)

 

Stephen

[PRINSENDAM]

Hi Mike

 

 

 

It would be such a shame to tranfer princess ship over to cunard.

 

 

 

 

Why do you think it would be a shame? They are not inferior ships in any way.

 

Cunard wasn't always a company operating large and fast Atlantic liners. Cunard ran dozens of small passenger ships alongside the Queens.

 

Stephen

[Cunard Cruiser]

HI Stephen

 

I meant it would be shame if there were not another new build for Cunard. All the other line of Carnival Corp. get new builds all the time and I think it is Cunard's turn.

 

 

Also, from what I read and heard QV would be built as an ocean liner. Meaning 18-inch hull and a sleek prow. I take that the Princess ships don't have either, which would not make them a regular trans liner like QV. I know that QM2 was built as the premier liner, however I don’t think she is filled to capacity on most crossings (especially if they are offering such steep discounts). Just a thought if they spilt the transatlantic season with QV and have the Mary doing longer segment cruises like South America in 2006 it could work to the benefit.

Maybe when the 2006 brochures for Cunard are released there will be some suprises? Who knows.

[eroller]

World Ocean and Cruise Liner Society is reporting that Queen Victoria's launch has been pushed back to 2008, and that it might be reassigned to something other than Cunard.

 

They are also reporting that QE2 may be retired by 2006, and that Pacific Princess and Tahitian Princess may be transferred to Cunard.

 

Such moves might infuriate both loyal Cunard fans and loyal Princess regulars!

 

 

Thanks for the info. I don't think it comes as much of a surprise. It's no secret the first piece of steel hasn't even been cut yet for QV, so a 2007 debut seems near impossible given Fincantieri's current work load. Who knows if the ship will even get built, at least in it's current form?

 

I think QE2 will be retired the minute she becomes a liability to the Princess organization. If her operating costs surpass her profits then she is history. This being said it would be rather silly for Cunard to operate a one-ship operation. It was always my personal belief that QE2 would be retired when QV was introduced. Now that QV is in question, it's hard to predict what will happen.

 

Regarding PACIFIC and TAHITIAN .... I always felt these ships were out of place in the current Princess fleet line-up. Princess is positioning itself as a strictly mass-market cruise line with very large ships. They have pretty much gotten rid of most of the smaller ships (CROWN, ROYAL, and now REGAL). The two small ex-R Class ships simply do not fit the profile. Frankly I thought they would end up at HAL, but given that Cunard needs tonnage (especially if QE2 is retired sooner than expected), they would fit the Cunard profile well with little modification required. This would instantly give Cunard additional tonnage to work with since their market-share has been slowly eroding.

 

Ernie

[eroller]

HI Stephen

 

I meant it would be shame if there were not another new build for Cunard. All the other line of Carnival Corp. get new builds all the time and I think it is Cunard's turn.

 

 

Also, from what I read and heard QV would be built as an ocean liner. Meaning 18-inch hull and a sleek prow. I take that the Princess ships don't have either, which would not make them a regular trans liner like QV. I know that QM2 was built as the premier liner, however I don’t think she is filled to capacity on most crossings (especially if they are offering such steep discounts). Just a thought if they spilt the transatlantic season with QV and have the Mary doing longer segment cruises like South America in 2006 it could work to the benefit.

Maybe when the 2006 brochures for Cunard are released there will be some suprises? Who knows.

 

 

I don't think Cunard needs another transatlantic "liner". They can barely fill QM2 as it is ($699 c/o rates all the time) and there is just not the market for two ships on this service. Most people that take cruises today don't want to be at sea for six days ... it's as simple as that.

 

What Cunard needs is "world explorer" ships. Smaller ships that can explore the globe giving Cunard loyalists other options besides QM2 and crossings. I think the two R-Class ships will fit the Cunard profile superbly.

 

Frankly I think Carnival Corp. is getting cold feet when it comes to Cunard. They spent $800M+ on QM2 and maybe they are not getting the return on the investment they expected? Now that the hype is died down, QM2 is becoming "just another ship" and discounting is fairly common. I don't think Carnival Corp. is too quick to spend money on an organization that in not bringing in it's proportionate share of profits. This may explain why QV seems to have been shelved for the moment, and the original QV transferred over to P&O. Moving PACIFIC and TAHITIAN over to Cunard seems like a logical solution. I will give Cunard the opportunity to expand without another large capital expenditure.

 

Ernie

[mtbny7]

Isn't she gone? Scrapped last year?

 

Michael

[glgolfer]

Our travel club just had a meeting with a Cunard/Princess rep last night. They're no longer going to do any Caribbean cruises out of Ft. Lauderdale, but are doing "The Path of Magellan" cruises from New York to LA around Cape Horn between February and April, 2006. There will then be a 3 day "break" cruise out of LA before returning to NY back around the Horn. There will be a stop in Ft. Lauderdale to pick up any passangers embarking from there. The trip may be take as one cruise of 38 days or any one of three legs, 2 of 12 days and 1 of 14 days.

The rep did not say anything about retiring ships or transferring ship between Cunard & Princess, but nobody asked her either.

When I mentioned people were upset about the "transfer" of Captains between Cunard & Princess, she didn't know anything about that. Don't think management is keeping the reps up to ate with what is going on in the company.

The above is just for information based on what we were told last night.

[QueensFan]

Well, I am somewhat liking one half of this rumour. The other one puts a damper on my day.

 

I like the idea of transferring the Tahitan Princess and Pacific Princess to Cunard. I could see these ships with the names of the classic smaller Cunarders, like Ivernia or Saxonia or Franconia or another. I would love to see them in "exploration" roles, doing exotic voyages to far-off places.

 

However, I am really depressed about the QE2 rumour. As you probably know if you read my posts, I am a huge QE2 fan. I wouldn't want to see her retired in 2006. Mechanically, she still has many years left in her. The reason, however, for both QE2 and QM2 not selling well is obvious.

 

Cunard is not promoting itself at all. Sure, when QM2 came out, they got tons of free promotion. People were flocking to the ship. But after about the tandem crossing, the excitement died off. Now they're discounting.

 

When they built QM2, I think they built her too big. I think that Cunard is not the kind of line that can handle and support a megaship. There aren't enough people to fill them. They are still somewhat of a "niche" line. The reasons?

 

First, they have an irregular schedule compared to the regular cruise line. On almost every other cruise line that has a QM2-size ship, they also have regular roundtrips every week from the same port. People can take time off whenever they want, and get a cruise in. With QM2, there are long, 15-20 day expeditions around the Med and New England. There are 6-day crossings on strange dates. Nothing ever lines up with holidays or school vacations. This is why it is so hard for my family to be able to go on Cunard - if I went on the 2006 QE2 crossing, I'd have to miss the first week back at school after winter holiday.

 

Now, this irregular schedule works fine for a smaller ship, like QE2. There are enough people who can fit these cruises and crossings into their schedule. The ship can be filled enough to turn a profit. Thus, the ship, and thus the line, are successful.

 

QM2 is just too big to be able to do this. For the expense of making these crossings and cruises, they cannot get enough people to sign up to fill the ship enough.

 

Plus, Cunard is a luxury line, and thus has higher prices. Add the fact that some of the people who want to go on these cruises and crossings cannot afford them, and the line has to discount.

 

 

So, what I'm saying is that QM2, as she was built, was not the right ship for Cunard. The biggest ship Cunard can handle, financially, is QE2 sized. Royal Carribean can handle the world's biggest ship. Princess can. Carnival can. Cunard can't.

 

Cunard used to do a lot better before QM2. People looked up to taking a QE2 crossing. There were enough people to fill the ship. When they got there, they liked it (many people seemed to not have liked QM2.). They came back. They built loyalty. They made profit.

 

I love QM2. She's my second favourite ship of all time. But I think that a QM2 about 1/3 smaller would have been a much better choice.

 

 

Okay, that was a really long post.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Isn't she gone? Scrapped last year?

The one you're thinking of, of Love Boat fame, is gone from Princess as of 2002 but definitely not scrapped. She is now with the Spanish cruise line Pullmantur as PACIFIC. I believe that, at the moment, she is currently based out of Brazil and marketed by a Brazillian tour operator affiliated with Pullmantur.

 

Her sister, ISLAND PRINCESS, is now DISCOVERY for Discovery World Cruises.

 

The PACIFIC PRINCESS in question here, and her sister TAHITIAN PRINCESS, are the former R THREE and R FOUR respectively.

 

I do think that they would make rather nifty little Cunarders, and concur with Stephen that they ought to name them FRANCONIA and CARMANIA. Actually, I thought that they should have called QV either FRANCONIA or CARMANIA... So there.

 

As Ernie mentioned above, there has also been some talk of these two going to HAL. I think I like them better as Cunarders. There is a very specific definition of what a HAL ship should look and feel like these days... OK, PRINSENDAM sort of breaks that, but to me she looks a lot more HAL-ish than the R ships. On the other hand, the R ships' retro British interiors (modelled after the OLYMPIC-class ships) would be plausible at Cunard (with some changes).

[guernseyguy]

Cunard is not promoting itself at all. Cunard used to do a lot better before QM2. People looked up to taking a QE2 crossing. There were enough people to fill the ship.

 

QueensFan - I agree, Cunard publicity has vanished from the face of the earth....I don't know if its run out of Valencia or Southampton - possibly the move to the former has caused disruption.

 

I'm affraid you are mis-informed about the QE2's ability to sell Trans Atlantics when she was doing them regularly - I've always paid around the same ~70% off brochure for both QE2 & QM2 - only on the QM2 the cabin has a(n obstrcted) balcony rather than porthole. That said, Cunard were still able to wring out of me the same amount as RCL did, but with RCL it was 11 nights vs Cunard's 6.

 

Peter

[carlmm]

I do think that they would make rather nifty little Cunarders, and concur with Stephen that they ought to name them FRANCONIA and CARMANIA.

...

On the other hand, the R ships' retro British interiors (modelled after the OLYMPIC-class ships) would be plausible at Cunard (with some changes).

 

Indeed it would be nice to have small Cunard ships again.

Yet, when I compare them to the last small Cunard ship, the Vistafjord / Caronia I wonder if they can be Cunard ships. Maybe somebody who sailed on both, old Cunard liners and these Princess ships, can give some insights?

 

My first thoughts:

The outside lines definitely do not look like a classic liner.

The interior seems to be at least partly British themed, so that would fit.

A big advantage of the Vistafjord / Caronia was the single seating dinning room - would this be possible on the new ships?

The Princesses seem to lack a grand ball room, but have too many extra restaurants, bars and a far too big nightclub (given the number of people frequenting the Picadilly Club on Caronia).

 

Any ideas how to give back old Cunard feeling?

[PRINSENDAM]

Indeed it would be nice to have small Cunard ships again.

Yet, when I compare them to the last small Cunard ship, the Vistafjord / Caronia I wonder if they can be Cunard ships. Maybe somebody who sailed on both, old Cunard liners and these Princess ships, can give some insights?

 

My first thoughts:

The outside lines definitely do not look like a classic liner.

The interior seems to be at least partly British themed, so that would fit.

A big advantage of the Vistafjord / Caronia was the single seating dinning room - would this be possible on the new ships?

The Princesses seem to lack a grand ball room, but have too many extra restaurants, bars and a far too big nightclub (given the number of people frequenting the Picadilly Club on Caronia).

 

Any ideas how to give back old Cunard feeling?

 

 

You don't ask for much do you? :)

 

I made several cruises on the old VISTAFJORD and SAGAFJORD under Cunard. I've also done them as CARONIA and SAGA ROSE. They were top class ship in terms of style and service. Originally they were Norwegian American Line ship that came over to Cunard in the early 80's. There was lot of wailing and sobbing when Cunard took them over, no difference for the Cunard/Princess situation today. The standards did fall a bit under Cunard, but they were still better than most other ships except perhaps the Royal Viking trio.

 

I have also sailed in PACIFIC PRINCESS and IMO these two little Princess ships would make ideal Cunarders. Of course they would not be able to have single sitting, but other than that they would be just perfect. With the right Hotel Managers, the right directives and a good budget from Head Office they would become star attractions.

 

Lets wait and see!]

 

Stephen

[Opinions]

I came across this on the internet...Perhaps it might be of interest to some.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1599634,00.html

[Richard Schmidt]

Why do you think it would be a shame? They are not inferior ships in any way.

 

Cunard wasn't always a company operating large and fast Atlantic liners. Cunard ran dozens of small passenger ships alongside the Queens.

 

Stephen

 

It would be a shame because it would spell the death of a 165 year-old tradition of trans-Atlantic ocean liner travel. Is it so hard to understand that? I could transfer my bathtub to "Cunard". It wouldn't make it an ocean liner.

[Richard Schmidt]

QueensFan - I agree, Cunard publicity has vanished from the face of the earth....I don't know if its run out of Valencia or Southampton - possibly the move to the former has caused disruption.

 

I'm affraid you are mis-informed about the QE2's ability to sell Trans Atlantics when she was doing them regularly - I've always paid around the same ~70% off brochure for both QE2 & QM2 - only on the QM2 the cabin has a(n obstrcted) balcony rather than porthole. That said, Cunard were still able to wring out of me the same amount as RCL did, but with RCL it was 11 nights vs Cunard's 6.

 

Peter

I beg to differ re: QE2 trans-Atlantic bookings. QueensFan is correct. QE 2 was booked full when I crossed on her in 2003 and again in 2004, and she is sold out for the January 2006 crossing, the latter despite the fact that one can now cross on the Queen Mary 2 for pocket change. QE 2 is the last true trans-Atlantic liner, sold out despite the fact that Princess barely mentions her in their "2 for 1" coupons that comprise the sail-mail I receive. By the way, I'll trade 6 days on QE 2 on the North Atlantic Great Circle route for 11 days on any of the barges timidly hugging the southern Atlantic passages.

 

Richard

[PRINSENDAM]

It would be a shame because it would spell the death of a 165 year-old tradition of trans-Atlantic ocean liner travel. Is it so hard to understand that? I could transfer my bathtub to "Cunard". It wouldn't make it an ocean liner.

 

 

 

 

 

I hate to disappoint, but QE2 never was a 'true atlantic liner'. Right from the beginning she was designed as a dual purpose ship and she has always spent at least 50% of her time cruising. The last 'true atlantic liner' to run on the Atlantic was the STEFAN BATORY ex MAASDAM.

 

Stephen

[guernseyguy]

I beg to differ re: QE2 trans-Atlantic bookings. QueensFan is correct. QE 2 was booked full when I crossed on her in 2003 and again in 2004, and she is sold out for the January 2006 crossing, the latter despite the fact that one can now cross on the Queen Mary 2 for pocket change. QE 2 is the last true trans-Atlantic liner, sold out despite the fact that Princess barely mentions her in their "2 for 1" coupons that comprise the sail-mail I receive. By the way, I'll trade 6 days on QE 2 on the North Atlantic Great Circle route for 11 days on any of the barges timidly hugging the southern Atlantic passages.

 

Richard

 

Richard,

 

The fact that the QE2 was booked full does not demonstrate that Cunard had not been discounting her - only that the discounting worked. What Cunard is doing now with QM2 is entirely consistent with what they did on the QE2. Given that QE2 is only doing one or two Trans Atlantics per year I am happy for Cunard that they can persuade people to part with full fare for them. I am also happy for me that, to fill the QM2 they are doing what they did on the QE2 - I know what I paid. And I'm affraid the 'last true Atlantic Liner' was the France/Norway - or the Q3 Cunard originally planned to build - not the dual purpose Liner/Cruise ship, Q4, or QE2 that was built. In terms of 'job description' for a North Atlantic Liner 'able to maintain a timetable whatever the weather' the QM2 is every bit as much a liner as the QE2 - as has been demonstrated on recent crossings with diversions to Halifax, or searches for passengers overboard - unlike the Golden Princess, for example which is 'dropping a port' on her Trans-Atlantic to maintain schedule, due to 'rough weather' - not an option if you only have two ports.

[guernseyguy]

It would be a shame because it would spell the death of a 165 year-old tradition of trans-Atlantic ocean liner travel. Is it so hard to understand that? I could transfer my bathtub to "Cunard". It wouldn't make it an ocean liner.

 

Richard,

 

You have a very narrow perception of Cunard's history. The Express North Atlantic Liners were a tiny minority of the fleet - the bulk were in the 20/20 class - 20,000 tons, 20 knots. Even some of the truly 'iconic' ships, like Caronia (II) were primarily cruise ships.

 

Peter

[dougnewmanatsea]

they would not be able to have single sitting

I beg to differ - Delphin Seereisen operates DELPHIN RENAISSANCE, ex R SEVEN, as a single-seating ship.

 

All that is necessary is for the two alternative restaurants to be combined into a second main restaurant and, voila!, a single-seating ship.

 

That said, I do not think that this would be likely... I think at least one of those alternative restaurants would become a Queens Grill, and the second either become an extra-charge alternative restaurant (like Todd English) or a Princess Grill. Of course, if one becomes a QG and the other a PG, then that would actually enable the main dining rom for the peons to become single-seating.

 

It would be a shame because it would spell the death of a 165 year-old tradition of trans-Atlantic ocean liner travel. Is it so hard to understand that? I could transfer my bathtub to "Cunard". It wouldn't make it an ocean liner.

Sorry to say, but I'm lost.

 

In what way would adding these ships to Cunard mean the end of any sort of tradition?

 

Cunard has had full-time cruise ships in the fleet since... Well, since the '60s anyway, if not longer.

 

No, the R ships aren't liners... But then, would you call CUNARD ADVENTURER a liner?

 

Sorry, but as far as breaking with tradition goes, I just don't see how this qualifies.

[Transatlantic Tom]

Richard,

 

You have a very narrow perception of Cunard's history. The Express North Atlantic Liners were a tiny minority of the fleet - the bulk were in the 20/20 class - 20,000 tons, 20 knots. Even some of the truly 'iconic' ships, like Caronia (II) were primarily cruise ships.

 

Peter

 

OK folks, this is starting to sound like something from Capitol Hill or Westminster....no one agreeing on anything....

 

I think what Richard is looking at is more recent, post WWII Cunard history when, despite the Canadian service and cruises, the Transatlantic express liner service provided by Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth, and later Queen Elizabeth 2 really came to be what people percieved to be "Cunard". I don't think that there's any serious consideration to resume the Liverpool-Quebec service (but if they do sign me up today !!!!).

 

Secondly, the issue of "the last true Atlantic liner" needs to be defined more clearly. Does it not depend on how you put it into context: last one built vs. last one sailing, pure "back and forth crossings" vs. ships that had/have dual purpose, emotions vs. cold hard facts, etc., etc., etc. ??? I personally feel that it's a much of a subjective, emotional thing. Yes, the QE2 was built (wisely) as a dual purpose vessel, BUT I feel that she was designed first and foremost as a liner. I think many people would say that she is the last classic North Atlantic liner, despite the cruising side of it. You can't say the same thing about Norwegian Dawn or any Carnival ship. For all of the 70's and 80's she was always referred to as the last of the great Atlantic liners.

 

QM2 appears to be the flip isde of the above: more of a massive cruise ship that was (again, wisely) built with the appropriate hull and engines for the rigors of the North Atantic.

 

Tom

[Richard Schmidt]

Richard,

 

You have a very narrow perception of Cunard's history. The Express North Atlantic Liners were a tiny minority of the fleet - the bulk were in the 20/20 class - 20,000 tons, 20 knots. Even some of the truly 'iconic' ships, like Caronia (II) were primarily cruise ships.

 

Peter,

You are correct. I have a "vary narrow perception" that is indeed focused on the Express North Atlantic Liners. "Cruising" was a phenomenon that came well after the hey-day of the trans-Atlantic trade. It holds no interest for me. If I am on a ship, it is to get from America to Europe, or Europe to America. Small ships and smaller ports are the province of the cruise "ships". You are lucky to live in times where that will soon be all you have.

 

Richard

[guernseyguy]

"Cruising" was a phenomenon that came well after the hey-day of the trans-Atlantic trade. It holds no interest for me. If I am on a ship, it is to get from America to Europe, or Europe to America. Small ships and smaller ports are the province of the cruise "ships".

 

Richard,

 

Thanks for the clarification - I'm curious when you think the hey-day of the trans-Atlantic trade was - presumably pre-WWI? The first Cunard World Cruise was in 1920 or thereabouts onboard the Scythia (iirc), and others started cruising in the 1890s. In the depression the Berengaria did 'booze cruise to nowhere' at such low fares that she was nicknamed the 'Bargainarea'. While the 'Atlantic Express Liner' captured the headlines, the bulk of passengers on liners crossed on smaller slower ships - the 'Ocean greyhounds' were economically marginal for most of their careers (excepting the QE/QM glory decade post WWII), driven to destruction (most were shaken to bits by their mid-20s) at criminally high fuel bills, frequently under government subsidy. Out of curiosity, how often have you crossed, and on which ships?

 

Peter

[PRINSENDAM]

I beg to differ - Delphin Seereisen operates DELPHIN RENAISSANCE, ex R SEVEN, as a single-seating ship.

 

All that is necessary is for the two alternative restaurants to be combined into a second main restaurant and, voila!, a single-seating ship.

 

 

 

.

 

 

Doug,

 

Yes, it could be done by converting both of the extra restaurants into main restaurant extensions. I don't think it would be too popular with the passengers, after all, which reataurant would you want to dine in? The two extra restaurants on the R ships are great for a special one night out... at the Steak Hourse or Sabatini's, but I'd prefer to be in the main restaurant. The thing about SAGAFJORD and VISTAFJORD was that everyone was in the same place at the same time.

Mind you, the old CARONIA... had two main restaurants. Crystal gets by quite well with two sittings.

 

Stephen