Does Carnival have the right to open checked luggage?

[waldocruiser1]

That thief is sure gonna jump when my overstuffed locked bag pops open like a jack in the box with very little in the way of valuables. Put valuables in carry on luggage and keep it with you at all times.

 

That is kind of my point, if you think it is important to have on vacation with you, carry it with you, that way you only can blame yourself.

[mbalmr71]

But (and this is not an argument point but a question to the legal eagles out there) haven't you given consent with the purchase of your ticket after reading the restrictions on the ticket which gives Carnival the right to search your luggage. The fact that a simple closure lock is on the bag in no way dissolves you of the agreement you made when you bought your ticket. You can't pick and choose which ticket items you agree to, and a lock is a way of picking and choosing, isn't it?

 

 

Waldo, I belive I cited the facts so lets give old sarge a break shall we.

 

Yes this is really a MOOT argument cus no one is going to bother challenging the cruise lines on it.

 

Best friend,

However, terms of any contract excecuted in the US are bound by law and precident. No contract is valid if it violates the constitution even if you agree.

 

Cruise lines do NOT have the legal RIGHT to search you or your property in the United States. This is true even if the contract says differently. What they DO have the right to do is refuse to allow you to board for a variety of reasons including the reasonable suspicion that you are carrying a prohibited item. If you have not taken the time to at least look at the cases I posted then from a logical standpoint, why do they have metal detectors and x-ray machines? If they have the RIGHT to search then why not just require everyone to open up thier bags?? They need to be able to demonstrate a reasonable suspicion.

 

If you brought a locked suitcase and they asked that you open it or opened it without some evidence of a reasonable suspicion as to the contents. If they denied you boarding without that then you would have a case.

 

I know we are talking technicalities and no one is going to blow their vacation over it. However, be careful when you talk about what our rights are and are not. As US citizens our rights were purchased in blood and you have the obligation to know them and understand them if you are going to speak to them.

[waldocruiser1]

The locks are integrated into the suitcase. They would need a pry bar or a lock pick.

 

There are no requirements for TSA locks. I could wrap a tow chain around it and padlock like Houdini.

 

They simply do not break locks.

 

No I think tow chains are on the list of "tools of the trade" that are not alowd also,

 

But that might be changing in the future due to all the tow's they are needing, and the tow rope breaking. Just think what you could charge Carnival to use your rope to get you home.

[Amy Giard]

I'll settle this right now, boys:

 

FROM THE TICKET CONTRACT:

"All Guests agree Carnival has, at all times with or without notice, the right to search Guest's baggage and/or personal effects for any of the prohibited items, at any location, to ensure compliance with these restrictions."

 

http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Static_Templates/ticket_contract.aspx

 

YOU'RE WELCOME! :rolleyes:

[Goingagin]

Can they go through your checked luggage? If I have locks on my luggage can they open or break the locks off?

 

I certainly hope so. I do not want to be on a ship where someone has brought on dangerous goods - you don't have to go back too far in time to have problems with hijacks, piracy , or other unpleasant events. They can check mine any time. Ships don't fly - they sink.

[Amy Giard]

Cruise lines do NOT have the legal RIGHT to search you or your property in the United States. This is true even if the contract says differently.

 

This is incorrect. Private property owners

can take whatever measures they like

to safeguard their property - if you

don't like it you simply do not have

to go on their property.

[StillPooh]

You know, when I am standing around the airport or cruise port, I always look for the bags that are locked, I figure that some people will put good things in any bag, but only people that have good things in their bag will also put locks on them.

 

So if I am going to go through a bag, I might as well increase my odds of finding something good by only picking bags that have locks on them

Pick mine and you will be a disappointed idiot.

 

Bless your heart.

[Aquahound]

If you doubt this than I suggest you compel your next female visitor to submit to a full body search. Let me know how that works out for you.:rolleyes:

 

Not your opinion, actual facts?

 

I am not disputing what you said, and I think we are arguing 2 different points. The caveat here is cruise ship passengers sign a contract acknowledging and agreeing to their ability (and right) to search luggage, without or with the persons present. The cruise line makes it known and the passenger agrees with it.

 

Actual facts? I deal with cruise ships as pasr of my career. In the 15 years I have dealt with cruise ships in Miami and Key West, I can think of several criminal cases stemming from contraband found by ships' crews, some being from luggage. The Southern District of Florida agreed with, in all cases, the ships rights to search personal effects based on suspicion. In none of the cases was the search suppressed. Several involved drugs, and I remember one where a gun was found...by ships crew, not law enforcement.

[Sargent_Schultz]

I'll settle this right now, boys:

 

FROM THE TICKET CONTRACT:

"All Guests agree Carnival has, at all times with or without notice, the right to search Guest's baggage and/or personal effects for any of the prohibited items, at any location, to ensure compliance with these restrictions."

 

http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Static_Templates/ticket_contract.aspx

 

YOU'RE WELCOME! :rolleyes:

 

Says nothing about locks, and for example, no, they can't come into my house and search the luggage that I just packed. Until the luggage is on the ship (after screening by non-Carnival employees), it is not on Carnival property or in their custody.

 

Once in International waters, the US Constitution doesn't mean jack, but too late - I'm on a cruise!

[mbalmr71]

This is incorrect. Private property owners

can take whatever measures they like

to safeguard their property - if you

don't like it you simply do not have

to go on their property.

 

 

Before you say I am incorrect can you point me to the case or law that supports your point. Property owner or not, your property or not you have no right to violate the constitution. You would have to show evidence of a reasonable suspicion or probable cause to search someone even if it were on your property.

 

I will clarify that I am supporting an argument as it relates to constitutional law as it applies in the US. If it were to ever be challenged, which it has not been as it relates to cruise lines. I am sure that the court would find they are not covered by the HSA exceptions as they are not an airline.

 

The 4th amendment is skirted and avoided in many instances but it does not make it right or legal.

 

Hound,

I agree, I am arguing the point that is not a RIGHT granted to them by law or by contract. In the cases you referenced there was probable cause, reasonable suspicion or the contraband was left in plain sight and discoverd. There was also a case where the DEA searched a room based on the persons suspicious travel paterns. The agent got a warrant and it was upheld even though the circumstances were vague, when considered togeather they were compelling.

 

Now before someone calls me on it. I have no idea what happens when the ship reaches international waters. Just talking about the US port of embarkation.

[Amy Giard]

Says nothing about locks, and for example, no, they can't come into my house and search the luggage that I just packed. Until the luggage is on the ship (after screening by non-Carnival employees), it is not on Carnival property or in their custody.

 

Once in International waters, the US Constitution doesn't mean jack, but too late - I'm on a cruise!

 

As stated earlier, they will call you down to unlock it.

If you refuse to open it so they can search, you are

in breach and they can bid you "bon voyage"... :)

 

And you are wrong about International waters - you

are still afforded protections YOU DIDN'T ALREADY FORFEIT

via the contract.

 

FBI will investiagte serious crimes aboard cruise ships.

[Amy Giard]

Before you say I am incorrect can you point me to the case or law that supports your point. .

 

I don't need to point to a case or law...

You can WILLINGLY give up certain rights

to gain access to private property:

-----------------------------------------------

YOU: Hey can I come in your house?

ME: I need to search you for weapons first.

YOU: No way.

ME: Then no way. Goodbye.

-----------------------------------------------

YOU: Hey can I come in your house?

ME: I need to search you for weapons first.

YOU: OK, I will let you do that.

----------------------------------------------

 

 

Again, we are talking about PRIVATE PROPERTY and

PRIVATE CITIZENS rights...

not talking about the man on the street and the cops.

[Aquahound]

 

Hound,

I agree, I am arguing the point that is not a RIGHT granted to them by law or by contract. In the cases you referenced there was probable cause, reasonable suspicion or the contraband was left in plain sight and discoverd. There was also a case where the DEA searched a room based on the persons suspicious travel paterns. The agent got a warrant and it was upheld even though the circumstances were vague, when considered togeather they were compelling.

 

Now before someone calls me on it. I have no idea what happens when the ship reaches international waters. Just talking about the US port of embarkation.

 

Yes...and sorry if I didn't specify anywhere in this thread....my whole argument is based on reasonable suspicion that prohibited items exists in the luggage. Although, I do still argue they can search all bags entering their ship based on the wording of the contract.

 

As for International Waters, that's where my expertise really kicks in. U.S. retains jurisdiction over certain matters on cruise ships embarking and/or disembarking in the U.S. This is covered by 18USC7 (SMTJ). The FBI and USCG can prosecute violations of federal law from pretty much anywhere on the itinerary. To go one step further, Florida law applies on cruises that both embark and disembark in Florida (Stepanski v. Florida).

[fourcruisin]

Speaking of TSA agents, and those lines,

 

I like how they want you to slow down and spread out all your stuff, but once it comes through the scanner it is Hurry up and get it back in the bag and get out of here, they pace and push the tubs in to your tub to annoy you to hurry up.

 

Just so you know, I always try to get to the airport early, and when I get through the scanner, I am the jerk that is taking so long packing back up and putting my shoes back on.

 

I can put my 270 pounds down on one hand in the tub and hold it there when they are trying to push me down the line further. Then I go even slower. Not to be annoying but to make sure I don't forget anything.

 

It is funny, I pack my carryone at home in about 5 minutes, but at that point in line, I think my record is 12 minutes that felt like an hour. Kind of upsets my wife though.

 

So if you are near the guy taking his time repacking, he is doing it for all of us that are tired of TSA's one way making the rules.

 

 

You are my hero! lol. We encountered several of the most obnoxious agents at LAX. I almost lost it after 15 minutes of total nonsense. My husband had to whisper to me to take it easy because he figured I'd be delayed even longer and not allowed to make my flight.

 

They seem to make up arbitrary, nonsensical and ridiculous rules depending on the day, time, weather or their mood. Ugggh. I have to stop now before I get myself into trouble.

 

But, from me to you, a huge thank you for fighting back for all of us that have been annoyed!

[mbalmr71]

I don't need to point to a case or law...

You can WILLINGLY give up certain rights

to gain access to private property:

-----------------------------------------------

YOU: Hey can I come in your house?

ME: I need to search you for weapons first.

YOU: No way.

ME: Then no way. Goodbye.

-----------------------------------------------

YOU: Hey can I come in your house?

ME: I need to search you for weapons first.

YOU: OK, I will let you do that.

----------------------------------------------

 

 

Again, we are talking about PRIVATE PROPERTY and

PRIVATE CITIZENS rights...

not talking about the man on the street and the cops.

 

LOL. We are really arguing two different points. You have broad rights to refuse access to your home or property. Even in the realm of the 4th amendment there is no real case law that I can find to support it or condemn it. There is some argument out there that the 4th only applies in a criminal investigation and that you cannot violate it if you are not working in the capacity of law enforcement or the govt. In any case I was speaking about the technicality of our rights granted in the constitution. My point was that the cruise ticket contract does not have the right to abridge the constitution. In any case... I give up on this one.

 

Just don't hide your booze and your curling irons and enjoy your cruise.

[yourbestfriend]

I'm still a little, no a lot confused. The 4th amendment is basically saying that no one can search me or my possessions without due process OR MY CONSENT. A cruise ticket is a legally binding contract and by purchasing it I thereby choose to abide by it. So I have personally verified that I am giving up my 4th amendment rights by allowing the cruise line to search my luggage. I can't see anything ambiguous with that.

 

Consent is consent, regardless of the form it takes, as I have always been led to believe. You can't argue the non-validity of a contract after the fact by saying the contract took away your 4th amendments rights. You waived those rights! If you don't want to give up your right to privacy don't cruise, no one is making you.

[Amy Giard]

My point was that the cruise ticket contract does not have the right to abridge the constitution. .

 

My point is you can GIVE UP / FORFEIT your rights - it's called

CONSENT. If you don't want to give up your rights,

DON'T AGREE TO THE CONTRACT!

 

You need to learn the difference between having your rights

taken away and you giving them up - Take the free class from Hillsdale. ;)

[Goingagin]

Yes...and sorry if I didn't specify anywhere in this thread....my whole argument is based on reasonable suspicion that prohibited items exists in the luggage. Although, I do still argue they can search all bags entering their ship based on the wording of the contract.

 

As for International Waters, that's where my expertise really kicks in. U.S. retains jurisdiction over certain matters on cruise ships embarking and/or disembarking in the U.S. This is covered by 18USC7 (SMTJ). The FBI and USCG can prosecute violations of federal law from pretty much anywhere on the itinerary. To go one step further, Florida law applies on cruises that both embark and disembark in Florida (Stepanski v. Florida).

 

..... and those ships -Non American - in European/Asian/South Pacific/African Waters - so what's a fourth amendment to them?

[Amy Giard]

I'm still a little, no a lot confused. The 4th amendment is basically saying that no one can search me or my possessions without due process OR MY CONSENT. A cruise ticket is a legally binding contract and by purchasing it I thereby choose to abide by it. So I have personally verified that I am giving up my 4th amendment rights by allowing the cruise line to search my luggage. I can't see anything ambiguous with that.

 

Consent is consent, regardless of the form it takes, as I have always been led to believe. You can't argue the non-validity of a contract after the fact by saying the contract took away your 4th amendments rights. You waived those rights! If you don't want to give up your right to privacy don't cruise, no one is making you.

 

 

 

[Raven Days]

They can open mine anytime they feel like it. I have nothing to hide. If they want to rumage through my drawers and my tampons:eek:, more power to them. I feel the same way about it when I fly. I dont put anything in my suit case that I care about anyone seeing. And I never put anything in there that I would give a crap about if I lost.

[gfy012]

Says nothing about locks, and for example, no, they can't come into my house and search the luggage that I just packed. Until the luggage is on the ship (after screening by non-Carnival employees), it is not on Carnival property or in their custody.

 

Once in International waters, the US Constitution doesn't mean jack, but too late - I'm on a cruise!

 

It doesn't say unzip or ziptie either. It says search with or without consent.

[Sargent_Schultz]

My point is you can GIVE UP / FORFEIT your rights - it's called

CONSENT. If you don't want to give up your rights,

DON'T AGREE TO THE CONTRACT!

 

You need to learn the difference between having your rights

taken away and you giving them up - Take the free class from Hillsdale. ;)

 

Writing a contract contrary to laws designed to protect people is in itself not valid. Whether or not you agree to it is moot.

 

And state laws can't legally supersede federal ones.

[yourbestfriend]

Writing a contract contrary to laws designed to protect people is in itself not valid. Whether or not you agree to it is moot.

 

And state laws can't legally supersede federal ones.

 

We have millions of contracts that supersede constitutional rights every day. I signed a contract where I work that takes away my right to free speech, my 4th amendment rights, my right to bear arms. We can consent, at any time, to give up our rights. That is one of our rights.

[Sargent_Schultz]

It doesn't say unzip or ziptie either. It says search with or without consent.

 

Now you are just making things up. It says nothing about with or without consent. There may be consequences if I don't consent, but I certainly can refuse.

 

They cut zip ties, they don't cut locks. Zip ties are for one time use. A lock states I do not consent to a search without me being present.

[Aquahound]

..... and those ships -Non American - in European/Asian/South Pacific/African Waters - so what's a fourth amendment to them?

 

Nothing. No nexus to the U.S. Although, crimes committed by U.S. citizens or on U.S. citizens can still be prosecuted here.

 

Consent is consent, regardless of the form it takes, as I have always been led to believe. You can't argue the non-validity of a contract after the fact by saying the contract took away your 4th amendments rights. You waived those rights! If you don't want to give up your right to privacy don't cruise, no one is making you.

 

Bingo! Thank you.