A different dress code question...

[Cruachan]

just off the QM2 Wbound. Saw four mess dress uniforms, 3 army 1 navy. Also several kilts...as well as those rather odd plaid kilt pants that looked like they came from Bobs Plaid Pants Warehouse.

 

THOSE WHAT!!!?

 

First off - let's get some terminology sorted out. A "plaid" is an accessory worn with a kilt. It is a long piece of fabric folded several times and worn over the shoulder. It is the last remnant of what was once known as the "belted plaid" or "féileadh-mór" (loosely translated as great kilt). The pattern of the fabric is not plaid - it is tartan.

 

Tartan trews were worn in Mess Dress, No 1 Dress, and No 2 Dress (inter alia) by the Scottish Lowland Regiments. Before the Army was butchered by the morons who govern us, these were: The Royal Scots, The King's Own Scottish Borderers, and The Royal Highland Fusiliers). The Highland Regiments (Black Watch, Queen's Own Highlanders, Gordon Highlanders, and Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) also wore trews in certain forms of dress as an alternative to the kilt.

 

I would be very wary of telling any former members of any of those regiments that trews were "unflattering".

 

J

[Norfolk Brit]

I would be very wary of telling any former members of any of those regiments that trews were "unflattering".

 

J

 

Indeed! Even I draw the line at offending trained killers:eek:.

 

Sir Martin

[Cruachan]

Indeed! Even I draw the line at offending trained killers:eek:.

 

Sir Martin

 

Why, they could only kill you...

 

... oh no, hold on - you're already dead!

 

:cool:

 

J

[rhkennerly]

Indeed! Even I draw the line at offending trained killers:eek:.

 

Sir Martin

 

which is the reason I waited until I got to the colonies to say anything.

 

Still, they are rather shapeless and the large pattern gave them a rather Freddie the Freeloader look.

 

I suspect it was a training exercise for the troops. If you dressed like that in public, you'd better learn to fight.

[Cruachan]

which is the reason I waited until I got to the colonies to say anything.

 

Still, they are rather shapeless and the large pattern gave them a rather Freddie the Freeloader look.

 

I suspect it was a training exercise for the troops. If you dressed like that in public, you'd better learn to fight.

 

Soldiers in the Scottish Regiments never needed to learn to fight. They acquired that ability with their mothers' milk.

 

J

[Norfolk Brit]

Still, they are rather shapeless

 

In Mr Cruachan's case, it is not the trousers that are rather shapeless. It is the wearer.

 

Sir Martin

[Cruachan]

In Mr Cruachan's case, it is not the trousers that are rather shapeless. It is the wearer.

 

Sir Martin

 

I'm not shapeless. I'm round - round is a perfectly good shape!

 

J

[sarafinadh]

And very smart if well made.

Here is where the great divide of the pond becomes apparent.

 

In the states the ONLY excuse for wearing plaid pants is because you will be golfing. Or featured in a Steve Martin film ; -)

 

And I say that as a American Celtic immigrant with a fine appreciation of the kilt, the plaid and the clan.

 

Still passing on the haggis fer breakfast though....

 

; -D

[Jackytar]

I am sure that the military uniform is very presentable, but on any ship other than USA registered ships ( and no matter who in the end is the owner of the cruise line), nobody would care about a US military uniform. Some might even find it offensive. The US trying to display a perceived supremacy. Perhaps this uniform may be well received on Celebrity, Carnival etc, but on a ship with distinct "European" flavour / marketing ploy, any sort of military uniform would be weird. I would never consider wearing my military dress uniform at other than official military or government occasions.

I do fully appreciate that your husband probably does not intend to make any political statement, but perhaps leave any military uniforms or insignia within US juristiction.

 

I'm not sure if that's the most ignorant or the most arrogant statement I've ever heard here... or a combination. For your information, I have read several posts here that indicate, contrary to your statement, that military personnel - active or retired - in their mess rig are very welcome and appreciated on Cunard ships. Further, the Cunard website specifies that military uniform may be worn. Do you seriously believe that an individual service man or woman, turned out smartly in their mess uniform, is going to be taken as "The US trying to display a perceived supremacy"? Your statement implies that the OP's husband's military service is something shameful and ought to be hidden. He has earned the right to wear his country's uniform and I take extreme umbrage at your suggestion that he should forego it on the possibility - not even probability! - that someone may be offended. I rather suspect you are the sort of person to denigrate military service yourself. If perchance our paths should cross, please do not hesitate to shear off to windward.

 

Amias, please encourage your husband to wear his uniform with the same dignity and pride as when he was on active duty; do not let the likes of buchhalm discourage you or him. If perchance our paths should cross at sea sometime, I'd be delighted to stand you and your husband to a libation in honour of his service and your support of him during his time in.

 

Actually Jimsgirl is incorrect. Mess dress can be worn at any function that invites attendees to do so, e.g. it could be a dinner party at someone's home. I don't know about other countries but British mess dress can be worn by serving, former and retired military personnel (and personnel of certain civilian organisations) with their latest rank markings (unless they have been dishonourably discharged of course......)

 

Jimsgirl may be right; it depends on the country and branch of service. For example, I understand that the various US services permit retired military to wear mess uniform on formal occasions; in Canada, retired military must get permission first, and whether it will be granted depends on the nature of the event. Active-duty Canadian military can wear mess dress at any civilian event where a civilian would wear a tuxedo. I've already checked the relevant regulations for my impending passage... 27 days and counting!

 

Soldiers in the Scottish Regiments never needed to learn to fight. They acquired that ability with their mothers' milk.

 

J

 

The trick is to get them to fight with the enemy and not each other. :)

Edited May 17, 2014 by Jackytar

[Olliesmum]

Jimsgirl may be right; it depends on the country and branch of service. For example, I understand that the various US services permit retired military to wear mess uniform on formal occasions; in Canada, retired military must get permission first, and whether it will be granted depends on the nature of the event. Active-duty Canadian military can wear mess dress at any civilian event where a civilian would wear a tuxedo. I've already checked the relevant regulations for my impending passage... 27 days and count

 

Jimsgirl was speaking about the Royal Air Force in particular,so she was incorrect. I think she may have been confusing normal uniform with mess dress.

[newjoisey]

where is cunardaddict on this one ?:D:rolleyes:

[ducklite]

Here is where the great divide of the pond becomes apparent.

 

In the states the ONLY excuse for wearing plaid pants is because you will be golfing. Or featured in a Steve Martin film ; -)

 

And I say that as a American Celtic immigrant with a fine appreciation of the kilt, the plaid and the clan.

 

Still passing on the haggis fer breakfast though....

 

; -D

 

 

Or at a Dropkick Murphy's concert. ;)

[Jimsgirl]

Believe me Olliesmum, after my own service in the WAAF, and later 30 years of being a service wife (starting out as a Cpls wife, through every rank to Flt Lt - Captain to USA, wife ) I do know the difference between "normal Uniform" and "mess dress".

 

An RAF Officer has 2 "mess dress uniforms", "blue waistcoat" and "white waistcoat" - this latter was ALWAYS the dress for the Battle of Britain Ball. Wives also had an unwritten rule of dress , NEVER wear strapless for instance, , gowns were expected to cover their shoulders, and if the sleeves were short , wear gloves that were from finger tips to elbow. See the Queens outfits for instance.

 

For cocktail parties it was expected that she would wear a "tea length (below the knee length) gown , a hat and short gloves.

 

In my wifely tours of duty, I did see quite a few "young " wives sent home by the senior wife present if their dress was not considered suitable, and the husband would receive a lecture the next day from the C.O.

 

Jim joined the RAF at age 16 and half and retired at age 52, and in 35 years he served in every rank from Aircraftman 2 to Flt Lt.

Cruachan will I think, know what I mean when I say that , I was "a woman, a wife and a Lady".

 

It will be a sad day (for me) if Cunard drops the dress code. I have recently decided against a TCM themed cruise because it was being held on Disney Magic.

[Cruachan]

[quote=sarafinadh;42796517...Still passing on the haggis fer breakfast though....

 

; -D

 

You don't know what you're missing :D:D

 

J

[Salacia]

Regarding the dress code for the Royal Air Force as referred to by Jimsgirl, I will repeat: the code can be found here: http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0F179C00_5056_A318_A8D8F975CD47447B.pdf

 

As the saying goes We're all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own set of facts.

Read the code.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Salacia

[Salacia]

partial quote

... I have recently decided against a TCM themed cruise because it was being held on Disney Magic.

 

That TCM cruise did look interesting, but like you, I couldn't love being on that ship. Wouldn't it be nice if Cunard hosted a Turner Classic Movie (TCM)cruise?

[Salacia]

I am sure that the military uniform is very presentable, but on any ship other than USA registered ships ( and no matter who in the end is the owner of the cruise line), nobody would care about a US military uniform. Some might even find it offensive. The US trying to display a perceived supremacy. Perhaps this uniform may be well received on Celebrity, Carnival etc, but on a ship with distinct "European" flavour / marketing ploy, any sort of military uniform would be weird. I would never consider wearing my military dress uniform at other than official military or government occasions.

I do fully appreciate that your husband probably does not intend to make any political statement, but perhaps leave any military uniforms or insignia within US juristiction.

 

Hey buchalm, read this: http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf

There you will find the rules for the United States Army regarding "Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia". If you find any indication of a display "perceived supremacy" please make it known. When you're finished reading that, I will post links to the United States Navy, Marines and Air Force dress codes, and you can share your further insights.

 

Since this topic was brought up, I have read the rules and regulations for members of the military of various countries. These things are not taken lightly by the military, nor should they be. -S.

[Salacia]

where is cunardaddict on this one ?:D:rolleyes:

 

Man, what Mel Brooks could do with that question!

[Olliesmum]

Believe me Olliesmum, , NEVER wear strapless for instance, , gowns were expected to cover their shoulders, and if the sleeves were short , wear gloves that were from finger tips to elbow. See the Queens outfits for instance.

 

For cocktail parties it was expected that she would wear a "tea length (below the knee length) gown , a hat and short gloves.

 

 

With respect Jimsgirl, it is now 2014, things change over the years and females guests are not expected to wear long gloves at black tie events, or a hat and gloves at a cocktail party or reception. Shoulders still have to be covered.

 

Salacia: can you please point out where in that 21 page document it says anything about mess dress?

[Olliesmum]

As the saying goes We're all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own set of facts.

Read the code.

 

Salacia, you have come on here not only to discuss something you know jack all about but are also implying my husband doesn't know when he is allowed to wear his mess dress.

 

Please stop, you are making my husband laugh too much. (He also made some comments but I can't possibly repeat them.)

[ducklite]

With respect Jimsgirl, it is now 2014, things change over the years and females guests are not expected to wear long gloves at black tie events, or a hat and gloves at a cocktail party or reception. Shoulders still have to be covered.

 

 

My BIL was part of a military officer exchange program, USAF to RAF, stationed at Luechers. He and/or my sister had some sort of an event almost weekly, anything from all out formal balls to tea with the commanders wife. I have numerous photos of them dressed to attend all of these events, and not once is my sister wearing gloves or a hat, with the exception of a fascinator at a polo match or horse race, not sure which it was. She was given a "handbook" that was 100 pages of do's and don'ts when they arrived, and all manner of dress codes were described. Gloves were never required, and a hat or fascinator was only suggested for certain events. I will have to ask about the strapless gown bit, I have photos of her in at least three sleeveless (not strap) gowns, so that might still apply. I remember buying hose for her and mailing them to her because she said the hose selection there was terrible, so I wonder if they might have been required as well.

[Olliesmum]

My BIL was part of a military officer exchange program, USAF to RAF, stationed at Luechers. He and/or my sister had some sort of an event almost weekly, anything from all out formal balls to tea with the commanders wife. I have numerous photos of them dressed to attend all of these events, and not once is my sister wearing gloves or a hat, with the exception of a fascinator at a polo match or horse race, not sure which it was. She was given a "handbook" that was 100 pages of do's and don'ts when they arrived, and all manner of dress codes were described. Gloves were never required, and a hat or fascinator was only suggested for certain events. I will have to ask about the strapless gown bit, I have photos of her in at least three sleeveless (not strap) gowns, so that might still apply. I remember buying hose for her and mailing them to her because she said the hose selection there was terrible, so I wonder if they might have been required as well.

 

You can wear sleeveless gowns but not strapless.

[Jimsgirl]

My BIL was part of a military officer exchange program, USAF to RAF, stationed at Luechers. He and/or my sister had some sort of an event almost weekly, anything from all out formal balls to tea with the commanders wife. I have numerous photos of them dressed to attend all of these events, and not once is my sister wearing gloves or a hat, with the exception of a fascinator at a polo match or horse race, not sure which it was. She was given a "handbook" that was 100 pages of do's and don'ts when they arrived, and all manner of dress codes were described. Gloves were never required, and a hat or fascinator was only suggested for certain events. I will have to ask about the strapless gown bit, I have photos of her in at least three sleeveless (not strap) gowns, so that might still apply. I remember buying hose for her and mailing them to her because she said the hose selection there was terrible, so I wonder if they might have been required as well.

 

We (Jim and I) were there back in l974, we had an American exchange then also. Jim and I were already in the first stages of trying to get visas to emigrate to USA. (it took almost 3 years for that to happen- by which time we were at another base).

Those were the days of the Cold War. and we had numerous alarms of the Russians trying to infiltrate British air space. How long ago that seems now. The Battle of Britain Ball had to be cancelled because we had been on "alert" for 3 days.

 

Yes hose were most definitely required. Arriving at a new posting, Officers not only had to leave their own "calling cards" but also those of their wife. You never just phoned or asked people to coffee mornings or dinner , you sent out formal invitations. New Years Eve was a big celebration , I had a buffet /cocktail party at my married quarter, and at midnight a couple of Scots officers played their bagpipes out in the "street"!!!!

 

There were a great many "rules", and the wife of Commanding Officer in those days could rule with a "an iron rod" if she so wished. We were in our forties but Jim was relatively junior in rank, and it was very much "do as you are told or else!!!" . A wife's transgressions could affect her husband's evaluations.

 

Perhaps that is why I still travel Cunard. The formality is really second nature to me.

[fantasy51]

Greetings. My husband is a retired military officer and has worn his mess dress on formal nights, instead of a tux, on other cruise lines. Is this acceptable on Cunard?

Many thanks.

 

Amias, after reading all of these posts, my answer to you would be as follows.

 

Cunard says mess dress is acceptable. Many other passengers enjoy seeing it. HOWEVER, the final arbiter is the military branch itself. Some forces do NOT allow you to wear it after you retire from them, as clearly evidenced by Salacia's attachment.

 

You need to check the rules and regulations of your husband's military force. If they say he can wear mess dress to a public function when retired, then go ahead and encourage him to wear it with pride.

[Salacia]

Salacia, you have come on here not only to discuss something you know jack all about but are also implying my husband doesn't know when he is allowed to wear his mess dress.

 

Please stop, you are making my husband laugh too much. (He also made some comments but I can't possibly repeat them.)

 

 

I certainly wasn't implying anything about your husband - I didn't even know he was in the RAF. But I'm happy to have given him a good laugh :D

 

And as far as me discussing something I know "jack all about" - I've clearly indicated that any information I have on the topic came from reading the various dress regulations which I've posted. You're very sweet, and I'm sure you know tons more about mess than I do. Have a nice day!:)

Edited May 18, 2014 by Salacia