A different dress code question...

[fantasy51]

Where is that in the document Salacia copied?

 

Olliesmum, are you looking for facts or are you just looking to prove Salacia wrong? I can't quite tell from the words when there is no tone of voice accompanying it. I apologise if I am misreading the comment.

 

Surely the important thing here is pooling our knowledge, with one person building on another's knowledge. The last person has referred us to another document. Let's move on and see if together we can arrive at the truth.

Edited May 20, 2014 by fantasy51

[Olliesmum]

Olliesmum, are you looking for facts or are you just looking to prove Salacia wrong? I can't quite tell from the words when there is no tone of voice accompanying it. I apologise if I am misreading the comment.

 

Surely the important thing here is pooling our knowledge, with one person building on another's knowledge. The last person has referred us to another document. Let's move on and see if together we can arrive at the truth.

 

But we are not pooling knowledge or building on knowledge. What we have is people who haven't any knowlege of a subject telling people who have the knowledge (i.e. me) that they are wrong. As I said before, all the OP asked was if her husband could wear his mess dress on Cunard and the answer is yes. We then have yourself and others giving out unwanted advice to the OP about her husband checking to see if he is wearing his mess dress correctly.

 

Am I trying to prove Salacia wrong? Yes I am, because I don't like people telling me I'm wrong when I know I'm right and they don't know what they are talking about.

[fantasy51]

Olliesmum, I'm a sceptic. I haven't been able to find it in writing (searching on google) and I hear different information from people on this thread. Why should I believe you rather than Jimsgirl when I don't know either of you?

 

As for your other point, this is the Cunard thread. Thread drift is endemic! ;)

 

However, I have become quite interested in this and really hope that one of you will produce a document that gives us the answer. I don't care what the answer is as I have no favourites here and don't care who's wrong or who's right; I would just like to see it in writing.

Edited May 20, 2014 by fantasy51

[fantasy51]

I've done some more research and found the following paragraph:

 

0228. Occasions for Wear. The No 5 SD is provided as an initial free issue to regular serving commissioned officers but is an optional purchase item for WOs and SNCOs. It is reserved in the main as an evening or mess dress and is worn by commissioned officers, WOs and SNCOs at formal evening functions e.g. dining-in nights and guest nights. It may also be worn by retired officers, WOs and SNCOs and additionally, officers serving in the FTRS, RAFRO class CC, RAuxAF and RAFVR (T) on all occasions when this form of dress is appropriate for serving personnel.

(Page 2-29 of the following: http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/9645fada_ee31_9299_8e899fc7fa734d14.pdf)

 

Now we just need to know if wearing the uniform on a cruise ship is appropriate for serving personnel.

[fantasy51]

More research has revealed the following:

At civilian and other functions, when the order of dress is not specified and it is known that more than one RAF officer will be attending in uniform, the senior RAF officer is to decide on the dress to be worn and inform the other RAF officers attending of his decision.

 

(This is regulation 1010 on page 10-4 of http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0F261768_5056_A318_A86E74E0B6B96137.pdf)

 

This implies that it can be worn to civilian functions. However, I'm sure there must be something more to it that this, even if it's only in passed-on wisdom (word of mouth). After all, a barbecue in your neighbour's backyard is a civilian function, as is a visit to a strip club for a bucks' night. I can't imagine uniform being acceptable at the latter!

[keithm]

You're a very bad boy, Keith. Actually, I don't think it's so much reflections that you can see - more like the impression made by the wearer's toes on the shoe surface. Not that I ever looked, of course ;):D

I always remember Pee Wee Herman on HBO. There was this part where he & a friend had "shoe mirrors" & were going to "check" on girls' underwear. The girl with them said "It won't do you any good,Pee Wee. I'm not wearing any underwear!" The "ticked off" look on his face was priceless!

[Salacia]

I always remember Pee Wee Herman on HBO. There was this part where he & a friend had "shoe mirrors" & were going to "check" on girls' underwear. The girl with them said "It won't do you any good,Pee Wee. I'm not wearing any underwear!" The "ticked off" look on his face was priceless!

 

Kieth, that is funny! I hadn't seen the skit so I looked it up after reading your post. Here's a clip

:D

[Jackytar]

No they do not. They have been awarded to the recipient by His Majesty The King or Her Majesty The Queen.They are to be wore as ordered or requested whether in uniform or not, or long after a person has retired. In fact not to wear your medals at a royal function is extremely discourteous. Don't forget in the UK civilians are awarded medals as well, such as The Order of The British Empire and gallantry medals.

 

Jimsgirl, you state you served in the WAAF, this means you would have been awarded at least The Defence Medal.

 

Olliesmum, you're correct that honours, awards and decorations are from the Sovereign's hand (at least in theory). If Amia's husband chooses to wear his mess uniform per the regs sourced and quoted by fantasy51, he will of course wear them in accordance with those regulations. That said, he is retired and a Cunard cruise is not a Royal occasion, so if he chooses to forego wearing uniform, he is under no obligation to wear his medals at all. Personally I would hope he would do so (observing, of course, the UK's rules for wearing such with civilian attire), but it's his choice.

 

More research has revealed the following:

At civilian and other functions, when the order of dress is not specified and it is known that more than one RAF officer will be attending in uniform, the senior RAF officer is to decide on the dress to be worn and inform the other RAF officers attending of his decision.

 

(This is regulation 1010 on page 10-4 of http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0F261768_5056_A318_A86E74E0B6B96137.pdf)

 

This implies that it can be worn to civilian functions. However, I'm sure there must be something more to it that this, even if it's only in passed-on wisdom (word of mouth). After all, a barbecue in your neighbour's backyard is a civilian function, as is a visit to a strip club for a bucks' night. I can't imagine uniform being acceptable at the latter!

 

Thanks for digging out the relevant article. The Canadian Forces equivalent (A-DH-265-000/AG-001 "Canadian Forces Dress Instructions") does go so far as to specify that mess dress may be worn "at suitable civilian functions when formal evening wear is required." My impression is that the RAF assumes a certain expected level of common dog on the part of its members and doesn't feel the need to belabour the point. :)

Edited May 21, 2014 by Jackytar

[fantasy51]

Thanks Jackytar. The Canadian specification sounds much more helpful than all I could find of the RAF.

[Jimsgirl]

Olliesmum, you're correct that honours, awards and decorations are from the Sovereign's hand (at least in theory). If Amia's husband chooses to wear his mess uniform per the regs sourced and quoted by fantasy51, he will of course wear them in accordance with those regulations. That said, he is retired and a Cunard cruise is not a Royal occasion, so if he chooses to forego wearing uniform, he is under no obligation to wear his medals at all. Personally I would hope he would do so (observing, of course, the UK's rules for wearing such with civilian attire), but it's his choice.

 

 

 

Thanks for digging out the relevant article. The Canadian Forces equivalent (A-DH-265-000/AG-001 "Canadian Forces Dress Instructions") does go so far as to specify that mess dress may be worn "at suitable civilian functions when formal evening wear is required." My impression is that the RAF assumes a certain expected level of common dog on the part of its members and doesn't feel the need to belabour the point. :)

 

 

Exactly, it is assumed that the wearer has acquired a certain standard of behavior and therefore knows the correct thing to do (or wear) for the particular occasion.

 

Medals are not always "handed" to a recipient by the King/Queen ,it can be given over by a C.O. (or even sent in the mail), for the more common types i.e Long service and Good Conduct

 

Simply having been "awarded" a medal does not mean that one brandishes it at all functions

 

Times have changed but good judgment in all things remains important.

[Jackytar]

Exactly, it is assumed that the wearer has acquired a certain standard of behavior and therefore knows the correct thing to do (or wear) for the particular occasion.

 

Medals are not always "handed" to a recipient by the King/Queen ,it can be given over by a C.O. (or even sent in the mail), for the more common types i.e Long service and Good Conduct

 

Simply having been "awarded" a medal does not mean that one brandishes it at all functions

 

Times have changed but good judgment in all things remains important.

 

Very few medals now are actually awarded in person by Her Majesty (or, in Canada, by Her vice-regal representative in the form of the Governor-General), but even if they are awarded by the CO, they've still been awarded under Her authority, so should still be treated the same. For example, our 'long service/good conduct' medal is the Canadian Forces Decoration (CD), awareded for 12 years good conduct. It's usually presented by the skipper, but never 'in the mail'. For some members, that gong will be the only one they ever receive, so it should be something of an occasion, and awarded in front of one's messmates and so forth.

 

For myself, when I do eventually retire, I will likely not wear mess uniform any longer. The Canadian dress regs state that retired personnel may, with permission, wear mess uniform to suitable occasions, but it would seem not right to me. That doesn't mean I won't wear my medals, though. I will wear them proudly on my tux jacket, "in the manner prescribed."

 

Thanks Jackytar. The Canadian specification sounds much more helpful than all I could find of the RAF.

 

I wish I could say it's because the Canadian Forces is trying to be more helpful, but in my more cynical moments I suspect it's because someone did something spectacularly dumb regarding wearing mess uniform, so the PTB decided it was necessary to be somewhat more specific.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Jackytar

[Salacia]

PARTIAL QUOTE

...I will wear them [service Medals] proudly on my tux jacket, "in the manner prescribed."....

 

Well said, and well done! Cheers, Salacia

Edited May 22, 2014 by Salacia

[Salacia]

I have asked Salacia twice to to reproduce the regulation from the RAF dress regs that refer to the wearing of mess dress. As they have not done so, I shall make a comment:

 

There is nothing in that document that instructs in the wearing of mess dress, it is only mentioned in passing. Therefore I cannot understand how other posters have said they have read a non existing order. Perhaps Salacia and co are confusing mess dress with ordinary uniform.

 

I too am entitled to wear mess dress but I prefer to dress up in a ballgown and jewellery when on onboard with just my medals.

 

Hi Olliesmum. I'm sorry that you were not satisfied with my previous response. You told me to stop - that I knew "jack all" and so took your advice and did not reply subsequently. You seem to be itching for a fight; I am not so inclined. I choose by battles with care.

 

But I would take this opportunity to mention that Monday, 26 May is Memorial Day in the United States. We honor those members of the Armed Forces who have died in the line of duty. Whether or not anyone agrees with the politics, say a prayer for their souls, and for their families, please. Personally, I salute them for their service.

 

http://www.history.com/topics/holidays/memorial-day-history

Edited May 22, 2014 by Salacia