Where should Vaping be allowed on ship

[RDC1]

[quote name='pbsteve']Rook to knight 4
[url]http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jam.2007.0626[/url]
[url]http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/36/4/390.pdfhttp://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/91/1/52[/url]

This is now the 3rd time I've posted these. All three of these specifically are about breathing in pg. The third one is quite intersting.

I have also not addressed unscrupulous places that sell bad ejuice. I have listed how the EPA study showed one sample with issues, and the store I go to that lists the ingredients.

Oh and in your quoted article, it specifically states if the particles turn out to be harmful, they'll be causing damage throughout the lungs.

Who would do a study about the dangers... and not test for them. By this study I can confirm if there's dangerous chemicals, they will do harm to all of the lungs... but the same is true of airplane air. Ooh I forgot the other study linked about theater fog... created with pg[/QUOTE]

The study specifically measured the output from e-cigs and applied it to the known information, especially dealing with the toxicity of small particles. I could list 50 different articles here dealing with a very very large collection of data dealing with nm particles and very clear dose response profiles with increasing exposure levels. Impact is cumulative, not short term exposure. Same as with second hand smoke of which nm particles is the one of the main health impacts.

Now as far as theater fog, I believe that fog generators tend to use ultrasonics to create the fog not heat. Those generators are set up for it to remain in visible liquid form (otherwise no visible fog) that means droplets size, not nm particle size.

Also how often is most people exposed to theater fog. Not very often and not for very long.

It would be interesting to do a longitudinal study of health of long term theater workers where fog is frequently used. Probably not easy to do since use would not be consistent in most locations, and staff turnover is rather high.

[pbsteve]

[quote name='RDC1']The study specifically measured the output from e-cigs and applied it to the known information, especially dealing with the toxicity of small particles. I could list 50 different articles here dealing with a very very large collection of data dealing with nm particles and very clear dose response profiles with increasing exposure levels. Impact is cumulative, not short term exposure. Same as with second hand smoke of which nm particles is the one of the main health impacts.

Now as far as theater fog, I believe that fog generators tend to use ultrasonics to create the fog not heat. Those generators are set up for it to remain in visible liquid form (otherwise no visible fog) that means droplets size, not nm particle size.

Also how often is most people exposed to theater fog. Not very often and not for very long.

It would be interesting to do a longitudinal study of health of long term theater workers where fog is frequently used. Probably not easy to do since use would not be consistent in most locations, and staff turnover is rather high.[/QUOTE]
I agree the study would be interesting. I'm my time of working tech for theater groups, approx 4 years, every fog machine used heated nozzles to produce the fog.

Moving on as we seem to have reached an impass, I have to assume you voted nowhere.

[Ti2m]

How to avoid the Vape Police

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovwFL0yrxRM[/url]

[runner15km]

[quote name='pbsteve']So with smoking gone on balconies... and please dont bother bringing it up here, theres 3 other threads on it... Where would you like to see Carnival allow Vaping.

If you don't know what Vaping is, please do a simple google search, or you will probably be made fun of relentlessly.

Please be respectful here, well thought out arguments are encouraged, because I said so or because broad statements without explanation is just counter productive.

My personal feeling.
Vaping should be allowed in state rooms, balconies, in the open air area's of the ship, as well as any indoor smoking areas such as the casino, Vaping leaves no residual smell or soot, so theres no damage to be done, and no smell for the next guests. I do NOT think it should be allowed in the non smoking venues such as the main theater. The reason is not for health, but because it is distracting to others. Dining room I think should also be off limits, as well as ship hallways, and non smoking indoor area's.

So, where do you think? Please comment as to why you voted the way you did. I am actually curious, no matter what the reason is, as I am sure many others are."[/QUOTE]

Be respectful ? On another board did you not call some posters ignorant about e -cigs ?

[EZ4]

[quote name='runner15km']Be respectful ? On another board did you not call some posters ignorant about e -cigs ?[/QUOTE]

They probably were. I've run across several myself in the last day or two. One tried to foist a comparison of propylene glycol vs ethylene glycol and the merits of each in the flushing industrial machinery, as a study on vaping. SMH

[pbsteve]

Be respectful ? On another board did you not call some posters ignorant about e -cigs ?

 

Using the term ignorant is not disrespectful, it is an accurate adjective.

 

Ignorant, adjective

 

lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.

"they were ignorant of astronomy

[pbsteve]

Note the paper was in 2007 if it was such a good example of proof of propylene glycol as a safe delivery vehicle why hasn't it moved into human trials.

 

It's beyond trials and currently on the market, approved by the fda with the immunosuppressant ciclosprin.

[Cruising Golfer]

In the engine room!!!:cool:

[momof4boys]

This all makes me laugh. I am a third grade teacher and I have taught first grade and Special Education for years.

 

I have spent many hours trying to teach children that polite society doesn't want to see anything come out of their mouth or nose, if at all possible. To me that includes mucus, spit, smoke, or visible vapor. :eek:

 

Occasionally one has an emergency and something comes out....but then that individual sincerely apologizes and removes him/herself to correct the situation.

 

Yes, we all breath and exhale, but if it can be seen......it should only be because the temperature outside is below freezing!!:)

Edited July 11, 2014 by momof4boys

[Ti2m]

I have spent many hours trying to teach children that polite society doesn't want to see anything come out of their mouth or nose, if at all possible. To me that includes mucus, spit, smoke, or visible vapor. :eek:

 

Good for you. Fine to teach your own children about your "polite society" but others may have a different version. In MY polite society people mind their own business if it is not effecting them.

[momof4boys]

Good for you. Fine to teach your own children about your "polite society" but others may have a different version. In MY polite society people mind their own business if it is not effecting them.

 

 

Unfortunately all of the above do effect others....thus the reason for teaching! :rolleyes:

[KnJTexas]

can you send this to all the idiots out there and CCL please ha ha !!:p

oh the uninformed have arrived. I've been waiting for this all night, You were warned... here we go:

 

First, to your second part, they don't have to tell you whats in it. That is true, however they must still comply with the rules surrounding chemicals, remember, the FDA doesn't say food cannot contain lead, food cannot contain gasoline, etc. they say lead cannot be in anything ingested, gasoline cannot be in ingested items. So manufactures still have to follow FDA rules, even if specific ones haven't been created for them. For example, what is in your makeup, your perfume, your hand soap, etc. Also, every bottle of Juice I have ever bought has ingredients listed.

 

Propylene Glycol is antifreeze right?

 

Lots of things are in antifreeze, including DiHydrogenMonoxide, a deadly compound that kills 10000's per year, is the biggest part of cancerous tumors, and used in making automotive paint... and is in your purified water bottle, used to make Campbell's chicken soup, and even in the made from concentrate juice children are served at school.

 

PG is also in antifreeze, but used to make it safer.

 

Let’s start at the beginning. In 2009, the American Food and Drug Administration tested just 18 e-liquid cartridges from 2 electronic cigarette companies, and was quick to report that one sample contained diethylene glycol, a chemical used in industrial antifreeze that is toxic to humans. What they forgot to mention was that the levels found in the examined cartridge were nearly untraceable (around 1%), and certainly nowhere near the danger level. Still, diethylene glycol is NOT an e-liquid ingredient, so it shouldn’t have been found at all. Because the dangerous substance was found in one of the 18 samples, and more recent tests failed to detect it in any other e-liquids, some experts concluded it might have been contaminated in some other way. You can be sure no reputable e-liquid vendor is going to sell toxic products. They do strict tests and have quality control in place to ensure only the purest of ingredients go into their e-cigarette juices. Today, four years after the FDA’s report, there have been no cases of diethylene glycol poisonings worldwide, so I think it’s fair to say it’s not a problem worth worrying about. But e-liquid does usually contain an ingredient that’s also associated with antifreeze – propylene glycol. PG is sometimes used as an ingredient for antifreeze, but as an additive to make it less dangerous if accidentally swallowed. Propylene glycol does have a lower freezing point than water, but that doesn’t necessarily make it dangerous. In fact, PG is recognized as safe for human consumption by the FDA, and can be found in a variety of food additives and colorants, pharmaceutical inhalers or toothpaste. Also, if you own an RV and use it during the winter, you’ll be surprised to know that the water holding tank has propylene glycol in it to keep it from freezing. So yes, technically speaking, e-cigarettes can contain antifreeze, but not the dangerous industrial kind. Propylene glycol is safe, non-toxic and environmentally friendly. Sadly, that hasn’t stopped anti-e-cigarette groups from spreading misinformation and causing panic among the general public. There are articles out there that actually list diethylene glycol as an e-liquid ingredient, which is just a big lie. The fact is electronic cigarettes are gaining in popularity and threaten to cut the profits of both the tobacco and pharmaceutical industry. You best believe they aren’t sitting around doing nothing as their revenues decrease. All these people making negative claims about e-cigarettes without offering hard facts aren’t really worried about your health, they have their own agenda. So please, don’t give into your fear, do some research and try to think for yourself.

 

What is PG in?

Nearly all brands and types of creme makeup and "wrinkle creme"

bar soap / body wash

mouth wash

shampoo / conditioner

baking mixes

desserts in the bakery section of the grocery store

modified food starch

salad dressings

pre-packaged salad dressings

sauces

ointments

baby wipes

deodorant

gel cap pills and vitamins

Dolly Grand Donuts

Hostess Cupcakes and other food

Banquet Desert pies

Betty Crocker Muffin and bread mixes

Duncan Hines cake mixes

Grandma's brand salads

Pilsbury cake Mixes

Hidden valley ranch

Kens Ranch

Kraft Salad dressing

Marie's salad dressing

Old Cape Cod Dressings

Wishbone salad dressing

french's french fried onions and potato sticks

Taco Bell food <- ok, not so edible, but still

 

FYI. dihydrogenmonoxide is commonly written as h2o, water, don't believe everything you read, research yourself.

[crazycooks]

I voted for "nowhere" because in a few years nobody will remember what "vaping" used to be. :D

[EZ4]

I voted for "nowhere" because in a few years nobody will remember what "vaping" used to be. :D

 

Really?

[losijon]

This all makes me laugh. I am a third grade teacher and I have taught first grade and Special Education for years.

 

 

 

I have spent many hours trying to teach children that polite society doesn't want to see anything come out of their mouth or nose, if at all possible. To me that includes mucus, spit, smoke, or visible vapor. :eek:

 

 

 

Occasionally one has an emergency and something comes out....but then that individual sincerely apologizes and removes him/herself to correct the situation.

 

 

 

Yes, we all breath and exhale, but if it can be seen......it should only be because the temperature outside is below freezing!!:)

 

 

I find your statement kind of interesting. Back when I was in school my PARENTS were responsible for teaching me manners, not teachers at school. Teachers were there to teach reading, writing, math, science and other subjects. Maybe that's the problem nowadays? Too many people in the educational system teaching what they feel is socially acceptable rather than sticking to what they're supposed to teach.

 

 

.....................................................

Carnival Pride 7 day Mexican Riviera: September 2008

 

Carnival Inspiration 4 day Mexican Riviera: September 2013

 

Carnival Miracle 15 day Hawaii: coming October 2015

[RDC1]

It's beyond trials and currently on the market, approved by the fda with the immunosuppressant ciclosprin.

 

If you check Clintrials.gov There is an on going trial by National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute started in 2011 but still on going with no results posted.

 

I have run a check of NDA (new drug Applications) and only found one for ciclosprin with propylene Glycol inhalation. It dated from 2005 and was not approved. Actually found some rather interesting data on the notes from that NDA. That data is as follows.

 

Pharmacology/toxicology background for Aerosolized Cyclosporine in Propylene

Glycol

 

The preclinical support for administration of Cyclosporine inhalation solution (CyIS) in

propylene glycol (PG) vehicle derives from two studies, a 28-day inhalation toxicity 7

study in rats and a 28-day inhalation toxicity study in dogs, both using PG as the vehicle,

and historical data from published journal papers and chemical safety data for inhaled

PG.

 

PG is generally recognized as safe, mainly through studies using oral and dermal

exposure. The relatively low oral toxicity of PG is due to its metabolism to lactate.

Information on the inhalation toxicity of PG is more limited. An occupational study

reported acute (one minute) PG inhalation exposure produced upper airway irritation,

cough and slight airway obstruction (Wieslander et al., Occupational and Environmental

Medicine 58 (10) 649-655 (2001)). A single inhalation drug product, bitolterol mesylate

for bronchodilation, used an unknown amount of PG in its vehicle. The most pertinent

paper regarding PG inhalation toxicity (Suber et al., Food Chemistry and Toxicology,

27(9):573-83 (1989)) reported nasal hemorrhage in rats exposed to PG 6 hours per day

for 3 months.

 

In the applicant’s 28-day inhalation toxicity study in rats, pulmonary hemorrhage, edema

and tracheal inflammation were related to the combined expossure to CyIS and PG, with

incidence increasing with CyIS dose. Immunosuppression, characterized by decreased

leukocytes and lymphocytes was observed in the high dose group. While dose levels

were limited by the maximum tolerated dose, serum cyclosporine levels in the high dose

group exceeded human exposure by 80-fold. The well-characterized cyclosporine

toxicity, nephropathy, was observed at higher exposures.

 

The applicant’s 28-day inhalation toxicity study in dogs demonstrated lung irritation as

well, with alveolar and interstitial inflammation observed in all cyclosporine dose groups

and the vehicle control. No sham control was used in this study, thus confounding

separation of the extent of pulmonary toxicity due to CyIS versus that of the vehicle.

Laryngeal inflammation with ulceration was seen in the mid dose group males.

Inflammatory cell infiltrates (lymphocytes, plasma cells or monocytes) were seen in

control and treated groups as well. No additional CyIS-related toxicity was observed.

Dose levels in dogs were limited by the maximum feasible dose but serum cyclosporine

levels in the high dose group exceeded human exposure by 2.5-fold.

 

The main toxicological issue for this application is lung inflammation due to PG.

Induction of lung inflammation by PG in lung transplant recipients must be weighed

against clinical efficacy of CyIS. The patient, while receiving CyIS with PG chronically

(three times per week), is not exposed to PG daily as were experimental animals and may

receive pretreatment (inhaled lidocaine) to alleviate discomfort.

 

 

 

Now if you have the exact marketed product name or the name of the drug company marketing an inhalation version with Propylene Glycol I would certainly be interested. More so then a claim that there is such a product and it has been approved.

[RDC1]

I agree the study would be interesting. I'm my time of working tech for theater groups, approx 4 years, every fog machine used heated nozzles to produce the fog.

 

Moving on as we seem to have reached an impass, I have to assume you voted nowhere.

 

Actually not. as I asnswered before they are better then cigarettes but still have their health problems, mostly in nm sized particles, and second hand exposure to nicotine. As such use outside is probably ok, but use inside, including staterooms, should not be allowed, except in already approved smoking areas.

 

Found some rather interesting data on studies concerning fog machines and propylene glycol.

 

Looks like problems have been identified there. Including a few studies (I have not yet had a chance to pull them since I am on vacation)

 

Fog machines which generate their effects solely using water, such as ultrasonic or pressurized technology, pose no special health risks, however it should be noted that "water based" fog fluid does contain glycol. A number of studies have been published on the potential health effects presented by exposure to glycol based theatrical fogs and artificial mists. Two studies, a Health Hazard Evaluation completed in 1994 by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health,[3] and another one in 2000 by the Department of Community and Preventative Medicine at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine and ENVIRON;[4] both prepared for Actors Equity and the League of American Theaters and Producers, focused on the effects on actors and performers in Broadway musicals. The conclusion of both studies was that there was irritation of mucous membranes such as the eyes and the respiratory tract associated with extended peak exposure to theatrical fog. Exposure guidelines were outlined in the 2000 study that, it was determined, should prevent actors from suffering adverse impact to their health or vocal abilities. Another study [5] focused on the use of theatrical fog in the commercial aviation industry for emergency training of staff in simulated fire conditions. This study also found eye and respiratory tract irritation. In May 2005, a study published in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine,[6] conducted by the School of Environment and Health at the University of British Columbia, looked at adverse respiratory effects in crew members on a wide variety of entertainment venues ranging from live theaters, concerts, television and film productions to a video arcade. This study determined that cumulative exposure to mineral oil and glycol-based fogs were associated with acute and chronic adverse effects on respiratory health. This study found that short-term exposure to glycol fog was associated with coughing, dry throat, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, and tiredness. This study also found long-term exposure to smoke and fog was associated with both short-term and long-term respiratory problems such as chest tightness and wheezing. Personnel working closest to the fog machines had reduced lung function results. The Entertainment Services and Technology Association (ESTA, which has now merged with PLASA, The Professional Lighting And Sound Association) has compiled a standard for theatrical fogs or artificial mists compositions for use in entertainment venues that "are not likely to be harmful to otherwise healthy performers, technicians, or audience members of normal working age, which is 18 to 64 years of age, inclusive."[7] This standard was based primarily (though not exclusively), upon the findings of a report commissioned for ESTA(now PLASA [http://www.plasa.org])by the Cohen Group[8] and applies only those fog fluid compositions that consist of a mixture of water and glycol (so called "water based" fog fluid). Short term exposure to glycol fog can be associated with headaches, dizziness, drowsiness and tiredness. Long term exposure to smoke and fog can be related to upper airway and voice symptoms. Extended (multi-year) exposure to smoke and fog has been associated with both short-term and long-term respiratory health problems. Efforts should be made to reduce exposure to theatrical smoke to as low a level as possible. The use of digital effects in post production on film and television sets can be considered a safer practise than using theatrical smoke and fog during filming,[9] although this is not always practical.

 

When I started looking at e-cigs I was mostly concerned about nm particulates and Nicotine. My only concern about Propylene Glycol was that it had not be tested for the appropriate use (heated inhalation with frequent exposure in an application designed for deep absorption into the lung). Starting to think that there might be more reason for concern there was well. Especially since there have also been some results where Propylene Glycol is used in some infusion drugs and oral formulations being tied to renal failure. I can include those reports as well if anyone is interested.

[phillipdevoll]

Same place cigarettes are allowed to be smoked

 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Forums mobile app

[DMH15]

My two experiences:

 

I was eating in a booth. All of a sudden there was a cloud of sorts around me. A guy was waiting for his take out and I did not notice his cig. It was disorienting. I wondered what was in that fog?

 

I was at a Rangers ball game and the couple in front of me were vaping and it did interfere with my watching. Close quarters. Some fog. Not like the first case. An usher came and told them to stop. They argued. But ultimately stopped.

 

Maybe it is the newness of vaping... Don't know.

[momof4boys]

I find your statement kind of interesting. Back when I was in school my PARENTS were responsible for teaching me manners, not teachers at school. Teachers were there to teach reading, writing, math, science and other subjects. Maybe that's the problem nowadays? Too many people in the educational system teaching what they feel is socially acceptable rather than sticking to what they're supposed to teach.

 

 

.....................................................

Carnival Pride 7 day Mexican Riviera: September 2008

 

Carnival Inspiration 4 day Mexican Riviera: September 2013

 

Carnival Miracle 15 day Hawaii: coming October 2015

 

I won't get into teaching with you as I suspect you have not been in a leadership position in a classroom. However, teachers have always encouraged and taught manners...just look at some of the educational books and rules from long before you and I were born.

 

However, I think most districts, including private schools, and home school parents think teaching character traits of respect, loyalty, kindness, compassion, honesty, perseverance, and general manners is still important today.

 

Also, I would say most people don't want to see anything coming from another's mouth or nose. Hopefully you were taught that by someone.

Edited July 12, 2014 by momof4boys

[EZ4]

I won't get into teaching with you as I suspect you have not been in a leadership position in a classroom. However, teachers have always encouraged and taught manners...just look at some of the educational books and rules from long before you and I were born.

 

However, I think most districts, including private schools, and home school parents think teaching character traits of respect, loyalty, kindness, compassion, honesty, perseverance, and general manners is still important today.

 

Also, I would say most people don't want to see anything coming from another's mouth or nose. Hopefully you were taught that by someone.

 

When I was in third grade, I thought it was funny as hell to see stuff spewing from people's mouths and noses. It still is. Kindof. :p

[fishtaco]

I voted for use except for the MDR and non-smoking venues (clubs, elevators, etc).

 

Why because I believe vaping is a way forward especially for heavy smokers like myself to eventually quit nicotine but ultimately Cigarette cessation for the entire planet

 

I have been cigarette free 100% for almost 2 years I have not put a cigarette near my mouth since I started vaping with Nicotine! I failed 5 years ago with early version e cigs because nicotine was not available for sale in Australia other than in tobacco and pharmaceutical quit aids but now importation for personal use is allowed.

 

The more exposure to vaping smokers have the more chance of that smoker attempting to quit with vaping methods.

 

I am in the minority as I believe that vaping should be regulated in some way and e juice only available to current vapours and smokers .

 

The time in which all smoking is banned in front of Minors is also the time Vaping should be linked in anyway to smoking usage on minor health risk grounds.

 

Smokers need to "see" that there is a healthier alternative to smoking that actually works 100% and in the posses swapping smoking for vaping they are causing much less harm to others as well as themselves.

 

Tobacco and tobacco taxes are ridiculously high in Australia as is Quit aid nicotine products, by looking at my quit banner below many will realise that Smoking attracts too much money to both the tobacco industry and government to ever be prohibited entirely.

 

Vaping and e cigarettes will be widely accepted by non smokers only when the greedy pharmaceutical companies take possession of the technology and governments get their cut of the profits in taxes because anti cancer smoking campaigns introducing vaping and quit methods advertising vapor methods will be common place and so accepted as a safer alternative.

 

Why would any non smoker not want a smoker to use a less harmful method to cigarettes when" if not" given the choice and tolerance they will just smoke and the non smoker will continue to be irritated by it:confused:

[medic123]

I voted everywhere. After 3+ years of vaping, rapidly improving pulmonary function test improvement, now able to run and play with my grandchild, I DO NOT want to be exposed to cigarette smoke. I am a FF/Paramedic and I have read numerous studies. I do not trust the FDA to tell me what is or is not safe. Too may people have died due to Chantex for me to trust them. I have annual pulmonary function tests and chest x-rays for my job and they show the good things vaping has done for me. I agree cigarette smoke stinks. I have greatly improved my health and I WILL NOT allow anyone to make me stand in a group of smokers so that I can vape. I cancelled numerous cruises with RCI when they passed this policy and I will do the same with Carnival. I will stick with Princess from now on.

[fishtaco]

I voted everywhere. After 3+ years of vaping, rapidly improving pulmonary function test improvement, now able to run and play with my grandchild, I DO NOT want to be exposed to cigarette smoke. I am a FF/Paramedic and I have read numerous studies. I do not trust the FDA to tell me what is or is not safe. Too may people have died due to Chantex for me to trust them. I have annual pulmonary function tests and chest x-rays for my job and they show the good things vaping has done for me. I agree cigarette smoke stinks. I have greatly improved my health and I WILL NOT allow anyone to make me stand in a group of smokers so that I can vape. I cancelled numerous cruises with RCI when they passed this policy and I will do the same with Carnival. I will stick with Princess from now on.

 

The real problem seems to be that non smokers do not understand smokers!

 

Why on earth do Doctors paramedics nurses smoke? Because no 2 people smoke for the same reason and everyone's smoking experience is different to another's smoking experience.

 

This is why those who have quit cant always understand those who cant quit.

You dont have to cruise Princess just on principal because most people on any cruise have no idea that you are vaping anyway:)

 

Still good on princess for allowing vaping and perhaps their model is the future model for all cruiselines? Well Princess is part of Carnival anyway:)

 

Lets gloat when the anti vaping crowd start complaining about it being allowed on Carnival:D:D:D

[deborahjo]

Sorry but IMHO it is still a form of SMOKING. It should not be allowed. I say no it should not be allowed in cabins or any where else. You are still blowing you "vapors" in some ones space.