How long is too short? - VIDEO EDITING

[Jameseric]

I like this one very much; it's distilled from one of our northern Italian adventures several years ago. The format and equipment is at least one remove from what I use today, but I think the piece succeeds as far as it goes. At least (heh) by my own definition.

[pberk]

I like this one very much; it's distilled from one of our northern Italian adventures several years ago. The format and equipment is at least one remove from what I use today, but I think the piece succeeds as far as it goes. At least (heh) by my own definition.

 

Yes. THis piece is well put together. Well done. Still -- if you had to take out 30 seconds to make it fit some TV slot -- would it play better yet? Once upon a time, when I was young, I was in the film business. Eventually I took up a business career but in retirement I have gone back to my roots and love doing video projects.

 

What is astonishing to a guy like me is how much can be done by one person and zero production cost these days. Yet, most "trip" films, as you said, are a series of stills or handheld video clips cut to popular music with little "live" sound or voice over to explain things. The reason for this is that the post-production work (and learning curve) can be considerable. Most working people would not have the time to do justice to their vacation footage. I know a few -- but very few.

 

But all of us -- on what ever level of filmmaking can benefit from the discussion of LENGTH. I include myself. It's so easy to fall in love with your own footage. And, at the end of day, it's really so nice to have that FINAL CUT and make these decisions. Should I make myself happy -- or some unknown audience out there? Everything changes if you have an audience beyond your family or fellow travelers ...

 

By the way Jim, I saw your piece shot up on Mount Roberts in Juneau .. Never been up there so I appreciated the view. You got lucky with a nice day.

[Jameseric]

...if you had to take out 30 seconds to make it fit some TV slot -- would it play better yet?

 

Well placed comments, for which thanks. Particularly words directed against common unwillingness to trim away frames we love. Is there something neuro-psycological about tiny videos, that predisposes people to zone out at about the two minute mark, do you know? My guess is it's hours of daily training courtesy of TV commercials, that guide or at least reinforce such limited attention amongst today's viewers. But moving along. Length of project, at least within a five- or even ten-minute boundary (can I cut it down to a fourth of its present length, and have people like it four times as much?) is still not as critical, I think, as the appropriateness of pacing: length and placement of individual clips, and the emotional freight that carries. Which is an intuitive thing, able to be finessed mainly by practice.

 

Taking all that into account, I think the best approach is to think of one's videos in terms of self supporting two to three minute courses of a feast. Each able to stand on its own, worth experiencing for its own content. It's doable. Doing a segue to the NEXT course? Heh, another thread lurks.

[pyroguy]

I really think it depends on what you are trying to do. If you're trying to convey information, and not necessarily entertain, then longer shots, longer videos are fine. If you're trying to entertain, then you want to go with faster shots, quick cuts and shorter videos.

 

I tend to make more entertaining videos (see my sig) that don't convey a lot of information. However I'm not trying to do that...I'm trying to make something that (a) my family likes and can glean memories from and (b) a video that strangers will enjoy watching.

 

Hope this helps.

[pberk]

I really think it depends on what you are trying to do. If you're trying to convey information, and not necessarily entertain, then longer shots, longer videos are fine. If you're trying to entertain, then you want to go with faster shots, quick cuts and shorter videos.

 

I tend to make more entertaining videos (see my sig) that don't convey a lot of information. However I'm not trying to do that...I'm trying to make something that (a) my family likes and can glean memories from and (b) a video that strangers will enjoy watching.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nice work Chris. And let me emphasize the word “work” .. This stuff just doesn’t happen. You obviously have a sense of what would be of interest and then you covered that well on land and sea. Close up. Medium and long shot. Good coverage. You were prepared (to say the least) with the right cameras too. Nice WORK. Lots of energy. Your sense of timing and shot selection on editing speaks for itself. I doubt you can teach that. And again, editing is WORK. A whole week’s vacation (I assume it was a one week cruise?) in 3 min. That’s discipline. I imagine you left out some great stuff. Some folks just can’t do that. I also liked the fact that you left out all those fancy transitions and effects that folks love to stick in there. You kept the focus on the subjects and not on the fancy effects.

 

 

One thing you didn’t do was provide a date for the video. I’ve been doing home movies and video in six different decades now. Dates get to be important after about 20 years. Even the family will get trips and events mixed up. Dates are important for the long run. Names of places are nice too in the long run. Which Island was that? How old were you then? But that’s easily fixed later on – if you get to stringing these 3 min beauties into a longer form.

 

 

Great job.

[pyroguy]

One thing you didn’t do was provide a date for the video. I’ve been doing home movies and video in six different decades now. Dates get to be important after about 20 years. Even the family will get trips and events mixed up. Dates are important for the long run. Names of places are nice too in the long run. Which Island was that? How old were you then? But that’s easily fixed later on – if you get to stringing these 3 min beauties into a longer form.

 

 

Great job.

 

Thanks! You make a great point about keeping the dates, etc in there. I still have all of the source footage (about 50x more than what made it into the video) so the dates can be found. However, putting it in there somewhere creatively (maybe show a quick clip of the ship's daily newsletter paper with the location/date on it?) would be a great touch.

 

Thanks for the ideas! Leaving next week on a 7-day southern on RCI Adventure of the Seas...I'm taking my Nikon D7000 with a 10.8mm f/1.8 fisheye, 24-70mm f/2.8 and a 28-300 f/3.5 zoom lens as well as my GoPro with an underwater filter and steady cam mounting system. I considered bringing a tripod mounted slider, but it's a lot to pack.

 

I did create a cool little magnetic ball-head mount for the gopro, so I'm hoping to do some neat timelapse sequences with it. Ships are steel. Magnets stick to it. I'm thinking stick the camera to the bulkead on the balcony, set it for 2 second intervals while pulling into port...or even do a timelapse sunset from the ship as we're pulling away from a port.

 

I'll post back on here when it's all done...thanks again!

[pberk]

Thanks! You make a great point about keeping the dates, etc in there. I still have all of the source footage (about 50x more than what made it into the video) so the dates can be found. However, putting it in there somewhere creatively (maybe show a quick clip of the ship's daily newsletter paper with the location/date on it?) would be a great touch.

 

Thanks for the ideas! Leaving next week on a 7-day southern on RCI Adventure of the Seas...I'm taking my Nikon D7000 with a 10.8mm f/1.8 fisheye, 24-70mm f/2.8 and a 28-300 f/3.5 zoom lens as well as my GoPro with an underwater filter and steady cam mounting system. I considered bringing a tripod mounted slider, but it's a lot to pack.

 

I did create a cool little magnetic ball-head mount for the gopro, so I'm hoping to do some neat timelapse sequences with it. Ships are steel. Magnets stick to it. I'm thinking stick the camera to the bulkead on the balcony, set it for 2 second intervals while pulling into port...or even do a timelapse sunset from the ship as we're pulling away from a port.

 

I'll post back on here when it's all done...thanks again!

 

Looks like you have a plan. That's good. The time lapse sounds interesting. My next camera must have an interval timer. Right now I have to shoot continuously and then speed things up in the editor. A big fat drag -- but you do get more control.

 

One thing you might try is some "live sound" in a vacation video. I know that conditions are often not good for sound (wind etc.) .. but give it a shot. Here's a bit of inspiration from Bora Bora where I managed to get a decent live track while bouncing around in a 4 wheel ...

 

[Jameseric]

Live sound, yes. Ambient stuff: nearly impossible for me to do, but a thing I keep working on. Video of the Rhone two years ago had to be augmented by a rather more humble local recording, after our return. Talk about embarrassing. On the magnetic mount... interesting concept, but is that a thing I'd WANT to do near electronic media?

[pberk]

Live sound, yes. Ambient stuff: nearly impossible for me to do, but a thing I keep working on. Video of the Rhone two years ago had to be augmented by a rather more humble local recording, after our return. Talk about embarrassing. On the magnetic mount... interesting concept, but is that a thing I'd WANT to do near electronic media?

 

If what you mean is recording a narration track at home while editing -- that's a good thing as I see it for many videos. But it's the same problem. How long? I sometimes do narration tracks that are recorded on the fly -- not scripted. Something like "here's what I remember happened..." or "Here's where we were that day ... " That is sometimes the best kind. Those kinds of tracks need editing too.

[Jameseric]

...recording a narration track... need editing too.

We keep an email-distribution list, and send updates about every other day (folks who want to be part of it), with our relatively fresh impressions. What did it feel like, smell like, what new ideas, historical tidbits, cultural curiosities. That sort of humanizing thing. Which at the end makes an excellent basis for the voice-over script that gets composed. Our best sound studio for live voice, by the way, is our walk-in closet. Really --the more clothes hanging around us, the better for dampening echoes.

[Babycat]

Some things I've learned for general audiences are:

 

1. Videos should last as long as the content remains interesting, no longer, no shorter.

 

2. The clips within the video should probably not exceed five seconds each but aim for about three to four seconds or you'll risk losing your audiences interest.

 

3. People who do watch cruise videos are trying to live out your cruise experience vicariously through your eyes and want to have some fun. Lots of smiles and laughter along with scenes of familiar and popular areas of the ship go a long way.

 

4. The choice of popular music will likely have your YouTube video flagged and will only date your video if viewed several years from now.

 

5. Don't allow the length of your choice of music to limit a great video. If the music endures too long or short consider editing the music for length.

 

6. Music should not contain explicit lyrics and should draw the audience into a vacation mood in a non obvious way.

 

7. In addition to capturing sights, rich ambient sounds are a great way to improve the edits. Be careful not to include copy written background music!

 

8. Consider sound effects such as a ships horn, washing water, seagulls and unique sounds to the particular place.

 

9. Be careful of wind noise. A deadcat and an external mic will go a long way.

 

10. Be careful of camera shake!

Edited December 9, 2015 by Babycat

[Babycat]

Off topic

 

What I find distasteful are the:

 

1. vlog documentary style videos (which aren't inherently bad, I enjoy them when done in good taste) of people who are on a cruise, complaining and using vulgar language. That just yanks me out of the immersive experience.

 

2. Click bait bikini clad thumbnails that lead to videos with zero thought put into the edit.

 

pyroguy, I'm a fan of your work...keep em coming!

Edited December 9, 2015 by Babycat

[Jameseric]

...clips within the video should probably not exceed five seconds each but aim for about three to four seconds or you'll risk losing your audiences interest.

...some fun. Lots of smiles and laughter along with scenes of familiar and popular areas of the ship go a long way.

... rich ambient sounds are a great way to improve the edits. ...wind noise. A deadcat and an external mic will go a long way.

,..Be careful of camera shake!

 

Really, really helpful thoughts, especially in encouraging folks to recognize audience attention-span realities for individual clips. To expand on the 4-5 second rule of thumb: if a scene is important enough to dwell on longer than that, surely it's important enough to incorporate different/unique clips of. Not to multiply length but maybe to stretch some.

 

And for myself, I'm more forgiving of camera shake than of fast and generally pointless panning. Fast and pointless zooming is a hobby-horse in the same corral, but that gets us too far off topic.

[pberk]

Some things I've learned for general audiences are .............

 

 

Some great points Babycat ... and excellent work on the videos you posted .. Photography, editing and sense of what and how to shoot -- all excellent .. some neat timelapse stuff .. music selection .. everything .. well done .... especially in light of your 10 points "for general audiences". Ahhhhhh. The general audience with their ever shortening attention span. I don't mean to stick you with catering wholly to that general audience. It just brought to mind the question of catering to anyone besides yourself.

 

So -- who is my audience? Who is going to see this video? Should I shoot it and cut it with the largest possible audience in mind (the general audience) -- or a particular family audience in mind? Am I trying to get a million hits on YouTube or am I making a personal memory of our vacation? My stuff tends to go there. A personal memory.

 

I love researching after we get home. I learn so much more about where we have been and what we saw and did. I like remembering all that I can and researching more than we knew at the time .. I do think a bit about that "general audience" in the sense that I don't want things (even for the family ) to get too long -- over-done. Even the family has a limit. Finding that limit is the whole point of this thread. I just think that if people see themselves and those close to them in a video, that limit is much longer than the "general audience". So different rules may apply.

 

Here's an example. This video runs 9 min and represents one tour we took on a cruise. So 9 min for a 4 hour tour. At that rate, a one week cruise would run more than 2 hours. There in lies the problem. But this video is now aging for us. It's been nearly 7 years since we made the journey. We've forgotten a great deal of it. I won't say it's for a general audience but, for us who made the journey, it is not too long.

 

[perditax]

Butting in as a viewer only. I suspect that my opinions probably are outliers, so feel free to ignore them. That said ... I really dislike the trend of strapping a go-pro to your body, especially in wide-angle mode, and then doing the ship walk. I've seen so many of these on YouTube and all they do is make me motion sick. Sometimes there's the added vibration with each step taken. But there are so many of these I guess people like them. Second least favorite thing, filming video up your own nose with a selfie stick.

 

What I am usually hoping for in cruise ship videos specifically is shots I HAVEN'T seen before, and a little more attention paid to the everyday interior details--hidden nooks of the ship, what the crowds are really like, a little more time spent on stateroom details, even things you may take for granted like atriums and elevators and casinos. I am admittedly not interested in "family vacation" videos unless it's my family. Strictly speaking for myself and what I wish for in publicly published cruise ship videos.

[Babycat]

I like your videos pberk. They are as educational as they are entertaining. Moreover, I feel like through your style, I develop a relationship with you throughout your journey.

 

My personal rules of thumb for general audiences are just that. Certainly the duration of any clip could last as long as it should to help convey the story being told. The story is most important to the project after all. I personally think it ought to last as long as the content remains interesting but that's a personal artistic opinion. Stories can fall flat. I like to keep my family videos private and unedited so they can be viewed as raw as possible. What I enjoy most about my videos are the clips on the cutting room floor that I've forgotten about only to be rediscovered months later. Those, more than the others, bring a smile to my face and I think it's because they were forgotten and found again while casually perusing through my files.

[Babycat]

Butting in as a viewer only. I suspect that my opinions probably are outliers, so feel free to ignore them. That said ... I really dislike the trend of strapping a go-pro to your body, especially in wide-angle mode, and then doing the ship walk. I've seen so many of these on YouTube and all they do is make me motion sick. Sometimes there's the added vibration with each step taken. But there are so many of these I guess people like them. Second least favorite thing, filming video up your own nose with a selfie stick.

 

What I am usually hoping for in cruise ship videos specifically is shots I HAVEN'T seen before, and a little more attention paid to the everyday interior details--hidden nooks of the ship, what the crowds are really like, a little more time spent on stateroom details, even things you may take for granted like atriums and elevators and casinos. I am admittedly not interested in "family vacation" videos unless it's my family. Strictly speaking for myself and what I wish for in publicly published cruise ship videos.

 

I've done the GoPro thing, though not like that lol. They are great action cameras and are best used for action imo, not documentaries. Some camera shake can communicate realism to the video but too much can be distracting. The new thing is drone footage now. I feel they are great tools for setting the scene.

[Tommy3putts]

I've done the GoPro thing, though not like that lol. They are great action cameras and are best used for action imo, not documentaries. Some camera shake can communicate realism to the video but too much can be distracting. The new thing is drone footage now. I feel they are great tools for setting the scene.

 

 

I love my GoPro Hero 3+ black. The drawback is as you point out, stabilization. Folks, myself included, pan way too much with these cameras without paying attention to shaking. I'm now looking at gimbal options as well as another GoPro type camera for 4K. Got my eye on the DJI Cosmo which is handheld drone camera with a gimbal. Gets decent reviews.

 

As for my videos. The Audience is primarily the group of 6-10 folks I travel with. I compile a movie of the go pics and videos from our vacation they can be quite long. For example the video for our 2015 UK vacation compiled of mostly three and four second long pictures and clips is almost 40 minutes long. And that's after I whittled it down from almost 60 minutes. If I'm doing a video for a larger group of friends I totally agree that the shorter the clips and resulting video the better it will hold everyone's attention.

 

I've also learned that spending a few extra dollars on a good editing software can also help make great videos. I recently purchased Final Cut Pro and its. The best $300 I ever spent.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Tommy3putts

[Able Seaman H]

The DJI Cosmo is indeed an interesting "Thing". My concern is that it only encourages you to wave the camera around. You still have the problem of a wide angle lens which isn't conducive to producing good video.

 

A good camcorder should have stabilisation built into it. I use a Panasonic HC-X900 which is a little bit long in the tooth now having been superseded but as a hand held device you can get some decent results. Big difference with stabilisation turned on and off.

 

Combine the cameras stabilisation with Final Cup Pros stabilisation and you're onto a winner :)

 

 

Henry :)

[Jameseric]

Touching again on the titled topic. My difficulty has been finding an honest confidante/critic, who is also articulate. I have a really hard time, on my own, getting disentangled from individual clips. Have got it reduced to an 8 to 1 ratio, which still isn't severe enough: in my head I am committed to the idea that COMMUNICATING my story is the main thing, but still somebody else's encouragement is needed to let that cutting room floor litter grow yet deeper and move along.

[pberk]

Touching again on the titled topic. My difficulty has been finding an honest confidante/critic, who is also articulate. I have a really hard time, on my own, getting disentangled from individual clips. Have got it reduced to an 8 to 1 ratio, which still isn't severe enough: in my head I am committed to the idea that COMMUNICATING my story is the main thing, but still somebody else's encouragement is needed to let that cutting room floor litter grow yet deeper and move along.

 

Post some of your work Jameseric. We're honest, articulate and able to leap tall buildings at a single bound.

Edited December 13, 2015 by pberk

[Jameseric]

Post some of your work Jameseric. We're honest, articulate and able to leap tall buildings at a single bound.

Here goes. It's a track from the Blu Ray disk of our 2013 trip. Longer than three minutes, of course; but not its components. If that seems overlong for available time, or if the boredom factor sets in, just carve out a short segment and watch only that.

 

It wants to be played with speakers turned on.

 

[Jameseric]

My sense is the first sequences are too choppy, too abrupt, to match the pace of the narrative; otherwise I am pleased with it. Which opinion must be reinforced to some degree by the fact that I was there, saw and heard and felt all that bustle. So is what I am seeing here the same thing that you see, or is there a gauzy overlay of memory operating in there, making me more forgiving of the video-artifact than I should?

 

A good example, at any rate, of why we need friends who are also articulate and sensitive to artistic (and maybe emotion-moving) gradations.

 

[pberk]

Here goes. It's a track from the Blu Ray disk of our 2013 trip. Longer than three minutes, of course; but not its components. If that seems overlong for available time, or if the boredom factor sets in, just carve out a short segment and watch only that.

 

It wants to be played with speakers turned on.

 

 

Hey. Overall, I liked it. For you and yours, the length is probably fine. And really, I think that's what matters. Please yourself. What a great memory of your time in a beautiful place. I really liked the twin narration. Very nice. I also really like the inclusion of the "live" sound -- but -- you should smooth out the abrupt changes by overlapping the sound track. Sound is important. I'd say your biggest challenge is getting the "live" sound to flow smoothly. Nevertheless, I liked it and was not bored watching it.

[Jameseric]

Thanks much, your observations are helpful, especially about the sound. Here is a link to one of my favorites, certainly storywise.