Observations re dress code compliance - Summit 10/17-10/23

[ahoymatey3]

 

Jeans and flip flops are NEVER appropriate in a dining room on an X ship.

 

 

I'm assuming you meant at dinner. During the day they are fine.

[bostonnerd]

I think the technical term for it is "The Dumbing of America". :(

 

I work with a group of twenty-somethings (I'm old enough to be their father) whose normal mode of dress is jeans, t-shirts, and sandals (with socks in the winter). They also have undergraduate degrees from MIT, Caltech, IIT, and Stanford, along with aproximately 15 patents awarded between them.

 

"Dumbing of America".............hardly

[tbelian]

Why would you think the majority of the people want this? It seems to me to be a very small minority. You notice them because they stand out, but most of the people do what is requested.

 

Once again may I point out that this really is the bottom line.

 

Restate here with bold emphasis (by me) :

 

"most of the people do what is requested"

 

Why is it that the banner wavers for relaxing any dress code fail to see this statistic?

[jff50]

I work with a group of twenty-somethings (I'm old enough to be their father) whose normal mode of dress is jeans, t-shirts, and sandals (with socks in the winter). They also have undergraduate degrees from MIT, Caltech, IIT, and Stanford, along with aproximately 15 patents awarded between them.

 

"Dumbing of America".............hardly

 

If you've read any of the other posts by WeBeCruisin' you may observe that he considers anyone that disagrees with him on this point to be a self-centered moron.

[tbelian]

I work with a group of twenty-somethings (I'm old enough to be their father) whose normal mode of dress is jeans, t-shirts, and sandals (with socks in the winter). They also have undergraduate degrees from MIT, Caltech, IIT, and Stanford, along with aproximately 15 patents awarded between them.

 

"Dumbing of America".............hardly

 

This would be a rather specific eclectic group of individuals that likely don't represent the majority of the jeans, t-shirt, and sandals crowd. And although some of them probably DO cruise, I would venture a guess and say that most in that group do not.

[WeBeCruisin']

I work with a group of twenty-somethings (I'm old enough to be their father) whose normal mode of dress is jeans, t-shirts, and sandals (with socks in the winter). They also have undergraduate degrees from MIT, Caltech, IIT, and Stanford, along with aproximately 15 patents awarded between them.

 

"Dumbing of America".............hardly

 

And those are hardly the type of people being described as being responsible for The Dumbing of America. My youngest son is 32 and is with Microsoft in Seattle. He wears "grunge" clothes at work, but has already started and sold (for a half-million dollars profit) his own dot.com company, had four computer books published internationally (on Excel, Unix, XML and Python) and is currently working on his second novel. He is also married and has two children.

 

I think he hardly fits the Dumbing of America pattern, either. And he follows the dress code when on cruises.

 

Reductive thinking like yours is perhaps also a symptom.

 

The Dumbing of America is not about how people dress at work. It's an attitude and a dissolution of intellectual, social, and educational skills. It's the skewing of everything to the lowest common denominator. It's political correctness taken to ridiculous and harmful levels. It's the increased superficiality of society's values, where rappers and "hot" babes are much more highly valued than honesty, kindness, and accomplishments. It's all of that and much more.

 

It's hardly about how the young people you work with dress. It's not even about young people. It's about American society as a whole.

 

Allen

[WeBeCruisin']

If you've read any of the other posts by WeBeCruisin' you may observe that he considers anyone that disagrees with him on this point to be a self-centered moron.

 

Not at all. I consider people who place their own wishes ahead of everyone else's to be self-centered. I have called no one a moron. Not even you, jff50. :D

[jff50]

This would be a rather specific eclectic group of individuals that likely don't represent the majority of the jeans, t-shirt, and sandals crowd. And although some of them probably DO cruise, I would venture a guess and say that most in that group do not.

 

bostonnerd's comment was in response to a post that stated that "The Dumbing of America" was the technical term for our society,in general, becoming more casual. I don't agree with WeBeCruisin', that casual equals dumb--but that's just my opinion.

[bostonnerd]

This would be a rather specific eclectic group of individuals that likely don't represent the majority of the jeans, t-shirt, and sandals crowd. And although some of them probably DO cruise, I would venture a guess and say that most in that group do not.

 

Yes, this is a pretty eclectic bunch of individuals (cat herding comes to mind :) ). Actually, most of them have been on at least one cruise, some have done multiple sailings. The point I was trying to make though, was that the broad brush comment of "Dumbing Down" is no more valid, then saying this eclectic group represents the majority.

 

So....I guess we are in agreement :)

[WeBeCruisin']

I don't agree with WeBeCruisin', that casual equals dumb--but that's just my opinion.

 

And I did not say that casual equals dumb. I said that the "me, me, me" attitude evidenced by people who deliberately violate the dress code out of selfishness and rudeness was a symptom of The Dumbing of America.

 

It would be extremely helpful if you could comprehend what you read and be able to respond without twisting words around and even accusing people of saying things that were never said.

 

Extremely helpful.

 

Allen

[jff50]

Not at all. I consider people who place their own wishes ahead of everyone else's to be self-centered. I have called no one a moron. Not even you' date=' jff50. :D[/quote']

 

I apologize, I can't find the term moron in your posts. Just dumb and classless. And since we all place our own wishes ahead of everyone else's (to some degree), I guess that that makes all of us self-centered.

[jff50]

And I did not say that casual equals dumb. I said that the "me' date=' me, me" attitude evidenced by people who deliberately violate the dress code out of selfishness and rudeness were a part of The Dumbing of America.

 

It would be extremely helpfuly if you could comprehend what you read and be able to respond without twisting words around and even accusing people of saying things that were never said.

 

Extremely helpful.

 

Allen[/quote']

 

The post sure looked to me like equating casual with dumb. I'm not sure that I'm the one that is twisting words around. I include it below for your reference:

Quote:

Originally Posted by caviargal

I think that our society in general has gotten more casual but IMHO this is not a plus, it is a negative. CG

 

 

I think the technical term for it is "The Dumbing of America".

[WeBeCruisin']

I apologize, I can't find the term moron in your posts. Just dumb and classless. .

 

I have also never called anyone "dumb". The phrase "The Dumbing of America" is a well-documented description of American society, not something I just made up to hurt your feelings or annoy you. Referring to a well-known phrase is not the same as calling individual persons "dumb".

 

I also do not believe I called anyone "classless". I have said that I thought that certain actions, including violating the dress code, line-breaking, and chair-hogging, were self-centered, selfish, rude, inconsiderate, and arrogant. If those characterizations imply that such people are "classless", then that is the judgment of the inferer, not of the implyer. :)

 

But thank you for your apology and admission that you had attributed words to me that I had never said. I will also graciously accept your future apologies. :cool:

 

Allen

[bostonnerd]

And those are hardly the type of people being described as being responsible for The Dumbing of America. My youngest son is 32 and is with Microsoft in Seattle. He wears "grunge" clothes at work' date=' but has already started and sold (for a half-million dollars profit) his own dot.com company, had four computer books published internationally (on Excel, Unix, XML and Python) and is currently working on his second novel. He is also married and has two children.

 

I think he [i']hardly [/i]fits the Dumbing of America pattern, either. And he follows the dress code when on cruises.

 

Reductive thinking like yours is perhaps also a symptom.

 

The Dumbing of America is not about how people dress at work. It's an attitude and a dissolution of intellectual, social, and educational skills. It's the skewing of everything to the lowest common denominator. It's political correctness taken to ridiculous and harmful levels. It's the increased superficiality of society's values, where rappers and "hot" babes are much more highly valued than honesty, kindness, and accomplishments. It's all of that and much more.

 

It's hardly about how the young people you work with dress. It's not even about young people. It's about American society as a whole.

 

Allen

 

While I can understand your comment on my reductive reasoning, it sounds like we may be more in agreement then you realize (scary thought).

 

We have both lived through decades of the same repeating lament concerning the declining culture in the United States. Somehow, each new generation or age group manages to surprise the skeptics with significant contribitions in every vital area that you mentioned. Perhaps I am just more optimistic then you seem to be, although I do indeed understand your observations.

 

Your son sounds like a terrific person. He definately has the required "Geek Credentials" :)

[WeBeCruisin']

The post sure looked to me like equating casual with dumb. I'm not sure that I'm the one that is twisting words around.

 

Originally Posted by caviargal

I think that our society in general has gotten more casual but IMHO this is not a plus, it is a negative. CG

 

I think the technical term for it is "The Dumbing of America".

 

It's all about context, jff50. I and others have frequently mentioned the concept of the Dumbing of America. My comment was in that context, and I apologize for not realizing that you were perhaps too new to CC to possibly be able to see it in that context.

 

As for twisting my own words around.... that's quite a stretch.

 

And, in contextual terms, caviargal's statement was in the context of a generalized assessment of those types of people whose attitude is that they will wear whatever they want to, regardless of how it affects others or regardless of whether or not it violates rules. I think it's safe to say that her statement was reflecting her feeling that the increase in this attitude and perhaps that attitude's concomitant growth in American society was a negative.

 

You took my statement out of context, and attacked me for my opinion. I'm not attacking you for your opinions. I'm chiding you for responding before you have fully comprehended that which was said, and for failing to think before you emote, and for misquoting, misrepresenting, and misconstruing.

 

Allen

[caviargal]

It's all about context' date=' jff50. I and others have frequently mentioned the concept of the Dumbing of America. My comment was in that context, and I apologize for not realizing that you were perhaps too new to CC to possibly be able to see it in that context.

 

As for twisting my own words around.... that's quite a stretch.

 

And, in contextual terms, caviargal's statement was in the context of a generalized assessment of those types of people whose [i']attitude[/i] is that they will wear whatever they want to, regardless of how it affects others or regardless of whether or not it violates rules. I think it's safe to say that her statement was reflecting her feeling that the increase in this attitude and perhaps that attitude's concomitant growth in American society was a negative.

 

 

 

Allen

 

Just for the record, the "Dumbing of America" was not my comment, but was attributed to me in the last post.

 

My comment was that IMO our society in general has taken casual to a new low and that I personally find this distressing.

[WeBeCruisin']

While I can understand your comment on my reductive reasoning, it sounds like we may be more in agreement then you realize (scary thought).

 

We have both lived through decades of the same repeating lament concerning the declining culture in the United States. Somehow, each new generation or age group manages to surprise the skeptics with significant contribitions in every vital area that you mentioned. Perhaps I am just more optimistic then you seem to be, although I do indeed understand your observations.

 

My "pessimism" may be because I have seen this trend develop through an additional generation beyond what appears to be your experience. I was also a high-school teacher for many, many years, and then was an employer of college students for many years. This background gives me perhaps a valid "yardstick" for measuring and comparing one generation's intellectual skills and communication skills to another. There has definitely been a decline. Most college seniors now are the equivalent of highschool seniors a generation ago, and perhaps the equivalent of junior-high students two generations ago. Grade inflation hasn't helped either. Most colleges are profit-making businesses which re-invest those profits in self-aggrandizement and "development". To make money, there have to be students. To have students, they have to stay in school. I've had college students bring in essays where they've received an "A", and there wasn't a single sentence where there weren't misspelled words, grammar gaffes, sytactic morasses, incomplete sentences, and the lack of any semblance of logical thought. When I first started teaching, way back in the day, eighth-graders wrote better than that.

 

I agree that there are many very bright and creative people among the young today. There always will be, thanks to genetics and certain types of nurturing parents or exceptional teachers.

 

But I also maintain from my own experience over many years, and from the declining number of people who read books, can write a coherent sentence, or communicate a logical thought, that the number of "exceptions" to the Dumbing of America is becoming smaller with each passing year.

 

Allen

[WeBeCruisin']

Just for the record, the "Dumbing of America" was not my comment, but was attributed to me in the last post.

 

My comment was that IMO our society in general has taken casual to a new low and that I personally find this distressing.

 

Caviargal, since I was the one who made the "last" post, I assume you're saying that I attributed the phrase the "Dumbing of America" to you.

 

Not at all. The phrase was completely mine and I responded to your post about your dissatisfaction by saying that, to me, it was symptomatic of the Dumbing of America. In no way did I state or even imply that the phrase should be attributed to you.

 

Allen

[Giorgi-one]

I work with a group of twenty-somethings (I'm old enough to be their father) whose normal mode of dress is jeans, t-shirts, and sandals (with socks in the winter). They also have undergraduate degrees from MIT, Caltech, IIT, and Stanford, along with aproximately 15 patents awarded between them.

 

"Dumbing of America".............hardly

 

Are you saying that people with undergraduate degrees from above schools are above the rules? I have an MS from Stanford and PhD from the University of Pennsylvania, but I still observe formal dress requirements on the ship. I am not impressed by your friends who live in jeans and t-shirts. If I saw them in a local restaurant dressed that way, I would call them slobs. I am not exactly sure what the 'Dumbing of America" means, but having a degree and/or a patent does not necessarily make you smart or even a good person. It only means that you can do one thing well. I look at the way school children dress today compared to the way we dressed (tie every day). My observation is that it shows in their attitudes. My daughter is a teacher and completely agrees with me.

[WeBeCruisin']

Your son sounds like a terrific person. He definately has the required "Geek Credentials" :)

 

I'm definitely very proud of him. He's accomplished all of that and he's still just 32. And he did it without college. My oldest son is a partner in a very successful law firm, but I'm probably prouder of the younger two because they didn't just follow a "safe" recipe for success. My middle son is a real-estate developer in Savannah and is also doing great, also without the benefit of college. He spent many years as an executive chef on Hilton Head Island and paid a lot of dues along the way. I'm extremely proud of all three of them, but the two younger sons showed a lot of guts and determination in the face of a lot of odds against them and society telling them they couldn't make it without a college degree.

 

Allen

[bostonnerd]

My "pessimism" may be because I have seen this trend develop through an additional generation beyond what appears to be your experience. I was also a high-school teacher for many' date=' many years, and then was an employer of college students for many years. This background gives me perhaps a valid "yardstick" for measuring and comparing one generation's intellectual skills and communication skills to another. There has definitely been a decline. Most college seniors now are the equivalent of highschool seniors a generation ago, and perhaps the equivalent of junior-high students two generations ago. Grade inflation hasn't helped either... [snipped']

Allen

 

Points well taken Allen and I do agree. We could spend weeks debating the social, economic, and political reasons for this. Heaven only knows, there is more then enough blame to go around.

 

But, do you really feel that the move towards casual dress is one of the primary reasons for this? Is it really a symptom, or have folks become less concerned with "formailty" as a prerequisite for contributing to the world at large (or their own little piece of it). Let's face it, we were a lot more formally dressed in the last century, but we really didn't do very well back then on many levels :)

[bostonnerd]

I'm definitely very proud of him. He's accomplished all of that and he's still just 32. And he did it without college. My oldest son is a partner in a very successful law firm' date=' but I'm probably prouder of the younger two because they didn't just follow a "safe" recipe for success. My middle son is a real-estate developer in Savannah and is also doing great, also without the benefit of college. He spent many years as an executive chef on Hilton Head Island and paid a lot of dues along the way. I'm extremely proud of all three of them, but the two younger sons showed a lot of guts and determination in the face of a lot of odds against them and society telling them they couldn't make it without a college degree.

 

Allen[/quote']

 

Sometimes a solid work ethic (with a high intellect to match) trumps four years of partying at a college :). No matter what level of education, working your a** off has a high degree of success potential.

[WeBeCruisin']

But, do you really feel that the move towards casual dress is one of the primary reasons for this? :)

 

No, I don't feel that at all. My "issue" was with the people who deliberately flout the ship's formal dress codes, because they feel that their wishes are more important than those of the other passengers and the requirements of the cruiseline. It was that 'me, me, me" attitude which I felt was symptomatic of America's growing "problem". And I perhaps misunderstood Caviargal's statement. I thought she was referring to the attitude, rather than a reaction to America's becoming more casual in general.

 

Allen

[halos]

I'm definitely very proud of him. He's accomplished all of that and he's still just 32. And he did it without college. My oldest son is a partner in a very successful law firm' date=' but I'm probably prouder of the younger two because they didn't just follow a "safe" recipe for success. My middle son is a real-estate developer in Savannah and is also doing great, also without the benefit of college. He spent many years as an executive chef on Hilton Head Island and paid a lot of dues along the way. I'm extremely proud of all three of them, but the two younger sons showed a lot of guts and determination in the face of a lot of odds against them and society telling them they couldn't make it without a college degree.

 

Allen[/quote']

 

Drive in most cases is far mor important than a degree. A degree without drive is nothing, but drive without a degree can still mean huge success. Personally drive impresses me far more. You must be proud of all your kids!!!:D

 

 

My opinion on how one dresses is that I don't think degrees, brains or social class has anything to do with it. I think it's more about how your Momma raised you. In FACT...I find that some people who are ones that 'dress down' are the degreed, socially/financially 'richer' people are the ones with huge egos that think they don't have to follow guidelines.

JMO

[caviargal]

No' date=' I don't feel that at all. My "issue" was with the people who deliberately flout the ship's formal dress codes, because they feel that their wishes are more important than those of the other passengers and the requirements of the cruiseline. It was that 'me, me, me" [i']attitude[/i] which I felt was symptomatic of America's growing "problem". And I perhaps misunderstood Caviargal's statement. I thought she was referring to the attitude, rather than a reaction to America's becoming more casual in general.

 

Allen

 

Allen, I do think there is a problem overall, both with the apparent decline of considering good grooming and proper dress to be important (I will not even begin to vent about the lack of manners in general rampant in our society today) and with the "me, me, me" attitude I often encounter. Perhaps it is all more visible on a cruise ship, as it is an environment that puts a large number of people together in a small space.

 

I am a frequent visitor to NYC and the dress I observe now when attending broadway shows is sometimes no better than I see at my gym! For me, attending the theater is a special occasion and I treat it as such. Apparently, the contrasting mentality is that if one is paying in excess of $100 per ticket to see a show, they should be able to dress however they want. (Sound familiar?) To me, this takes away some of the "specialness" of the event, as it does in a formal dining room on a cruise ship or in a nice restaurant.

 

I truly hope the prediction that someday dining on a ship will be nothing more elegant than a food court does not come true. But, I think we are - sadly - moving in this direction.