Norway/France sold for scrap

[Philip217]

SS Tashmoo,

 

I was lucky enough to accompany the NCL surveyors who inspected the SS United States after they purchased her.

 

The hull (originally top secret) design was the prototype for the USS Forestal, America's first Nuclear Carrier. The propellers (also originally top secret) now on the aft deck, are speed props, like something you might see on a water skiing boat.

 

The engines were mothballed when the ship went out of service. They now appear as if they were just installed last week.

 

We interviewed a few engineers who helped build her. They told us that when the ship first did her sea trials, she was able to make 50 knots forward and 25 knots in reverse!

 

We watched them do the hull surveys. This ship was built during the cold war, and they expected to use it as a troop ship if necessary. The ship is torpedo proof. The steel is still one inch thick at the waterline. Built so that a torpedo would bounce off.

 

The interiors are gone - but they weren't so much to get excited about anyway. A US built ship was not allowed to have any wood or carpeting onboard. The original floors were linoleum. A few bits of linoleum are still around. All original railings and furniture were aluminum.

 

There is a small stage / band stand in the main dining room that is still rerlatively intact - with stained glass accents. Very nice.

[Druke I]

Torpedo proof?? Don't kid yourself. The hull, with its 1" thick steel, might have been designed to deflect a torpedo, with its WW2 type detonator.

 

One inch armored steel will not stop much more than small arms fire.

 

Many modern torpedoes are designed to run under the hull, detonate, and break the ship's keel. The water amplifies the force of the explosives.

[DocF]

I don't know where to begin, but I'll start with the torpedo-proof assertion. A 21 inch World War II torpedo can penetrate a 15 inch armor belt. One inch plating is pretty much average thickness for a 42,000 ton ship. Actually, most of our great lakes 600 foot freighters built from 1906 on used 1 inch hull plates.

 

Prototype of the Forrestal class carriers? Not quite. There may be similarities in the basic shape, but an aircraft carrier has very different need than does a fast transport. The primary need is the ability to carry a very heavy top weight and to maintain a stable platform for take offs and landings. As a consequence of these needs, modern aircraft carriers are built with a wide, flat bottom, modestly full bows and a transom stern. None of these are characteristic of the United States.

 

I wish that my dear friend Russ Powell were still alive. He did most of the take offs for the metal shop when they were building the United States at Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock. I talked to him extensively about the ship and he had many answers which filled in a lot of the blank areas in what is common knowledge about it.

 

Another friend did a survey of the ship recently for a potential buyer. He tells me that hull plating is problematic, many major mechanical systems are totally gone, most of the interior and almost all of the furnishings are stripped. In other words, it is a hulk.

 

If anyone believes that NCL is going to do anything other than wait until attention lags and then scrap this vessel, they need to get a more firm grip on the realities of the cruise market, the expense of operating this hull, the expense of reconstructing it to be marketable, the costs of constructing and operating a new ship in the same market.

 

NCL owns this hulk and the Independence to pull the wool over the eyes of the regulatory agencies that have granted them exemptions from the Jones Act for their foreign built and foreign manned vessels in the Hawaii cruise trade.

 

Doc

[SingerEsq]

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

 

Someone got on board the Independence in December and took a few photos.

 

http://telstarlogistics.*****.com/telstarlogistics/2007/12/a-sneak-peek-in.html

 

Thanks for the link. Great pictures. Wish I could "sneak" aboard. Many spaces look as if people had just left.

[SS Tashmoo]

SS Tashmoo,

 

I was lucky enough to accompany the NCL surveyors who inspected the SS United States after they purchased her.

 

The hull (originally top secret) design was the prototype for the USS Forestal, America's first Nuclear Carrier. The propellers (also originally top secret) now on the aft deck, are speed props, like something you might see on a water skiing boat.

 

The engines were mothballed when the ship went out of service. They now appear as if they were just installed last week.

 

We interviewed a few engineers who helped build her. They told us that when the ship first did her sea trials, she was able to make 50 knots forward and 25 knots in reverse!

 

We watched them do the hull surveys. This ship was built during the cold war, and they expected to use it as a troop ship if necessary. The ship is torpedo proof. The steel is still one inch thick at the waterline. Built so that a torpedo would bounce off.

 

The interiors are gone - but they weren't so much to get excited about anyway. A US built ship was not allowed to have any wood or carpeting onboard. The original floors were linoleum. A few bits of linoleum are still around. All original railings and furniture were aluminum.

 

There is a small stage / band stand in the main dining room that is still rerlatively intact - with stained glass accents. Very nice.

 

I understand how revolutionary she was when she was built and that she is still probably one of the fastest ships if she was still in seaworthy condition, but as far as the secrecy goes, it just doesn't apply anymore. Any modern warship and arms would send the SS United States to the bottom of the ocean in the blink of an eye. If the secrecy was still required it wouldn't have been towed to Turkey to have the interiors removed and sat there rusting away before being towed back to the states.

 

I love old ships and it would be amazing to have the SS United States restored, but the immense cost would be unbearable for any company including NCL. People can be rightly upset about NCLs shady business practices, but the sheer amount of money it would take to restore the SS United States to her former beauty is unthinkable. NCL could probably build two modern cruisers for what it would cost to restore the Big U.

 

People have to be realistic, it's simply a matter of time before the SS United States is right where the SS Norway is. The only reason the SS Norway got bumped to the top of the list is the boiler explosion and the spotlight it brought upon NCL for poor maintenance and exploiting third world workers, that probably bought the SS United States some time. If NCL wasn't going to spend the money to keep the SS Norway around, which was still seaworthy and required only and engine swap and some updating, the SS United States as a rusting steel can hasn't got much hope.

[JLC@SD]

.....hey.....how about these guys........

 

http://www.cmt.com/shows/dyn/Trick_My_Truck/series.jhtml

 

they could do a trick my ship episode......:D

[chasetf]

At least she'll always hold her place in maritime history forever in all her beauty like all the other great ships.

 

http://i25.tinypic.com/w8aipv.jpg

 

Unfortunately, when the Norway is done we'll probably have to start a SS United States breaking thread. I'm sure once this settles NCL will send her off to the breakers as well along with the Constitution and Independence.

Thanks for sharing a great picture. She looks just like she did when I sailed her in 1963. :)

[chasetf]

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

 

Someone got on board the Independence in December and took a few photos.

 

http://telstarlogistics.*****.com/telstarlogistics/2007/12/a-sneak-peek-in.html

Sad to see the state of deterioration since we sailed her in 2001 (just months before American Cruise Lines went belly up). She was an old ship then.... but it was a great experiencing sailing a 50's era ship.

[Mark]

Chasetf,

 

The Norway was actually a 60's era ship and if I am not mistaken not much older than the QE2. I believe the France entered service in 1961 and QE2 in 1969...hence they were both 60's vintage ships

 

Mark

[SingerEsq]

Chasetf,

 

The Norway was actually a 60's era ship and if I am not mistaken not much older than the QE2. I believe the France entered service in 1961 and QE2 in 1969...hence they were both 60's vintage ships

 

Mark

 

I believe Chasetf was referring to the Independence, rather than the Norway. The thread got a little off topic in the discussion of the S.S. U.S with the Indy interspersed.

[chasetf]

Chasetf, The Norway was actually a 60's era ship and if I am not mistaken not much older than the QE2. I believe the France entered service in 1961 and QE2 in 1969...hence they were both 60's vintage ships Mark

 

I believe Chasetf was referring to the Independence, rather than the Norway. The thread got a little off topic in the discussion of the S.S. U.S with the Indy interspersed.

I sailed the SS France in 1963 when she was about 2 yrs old (before she became the Norway).

 

We also sailed the Independence about 2 mos before she was tied up in the American Cruise Line bankruptcy. (and subsequently bought by NCL)

 

I always wanted to return to the "France" and sail her as the Norway.... but unfortunately the boiler explosion put those plans on the sideline. :(

[Philip217]

DocF,

 

Actually it is not the Jones Act you are talking about, but the Passenger Services Act of 1896.

[DocF]

DocF,

 

Actually it is not the Jones Act you are talking about, but the Passenger Services Act of 1896.

 

 

The Jones Act prohibits foreign owned and/or foreign built vessels from trading between U. S. ports. Does not matter if they are passenger or freight, bulk, or break bulk. Congress was bamboozled into approving an exception for NCL.

 

Doc

[SingerEsq]

The Jones Act prohibits foreign owned and/or foreign built vessels from trading between U. S. ports. Does not matter if they are passenger or freight, bulk, or break bulk. Congress was bamboozled into approving an exception for NCL.

 

Doc

 

I wouldn't paint Congress as the innocent dupe ... I'm sure Hawaii's representatives had much to say in bringing an inter-island cruise line back to Hawaii. At one point, American Hawaii was depositing approximately 1,000 passengers a day (1,600 at full capacity, not including crew) onto the islands during its 7-day cruises. Then they lost the Constitution, then they lost the Patriot and the Independence after 9/11. As much as I appreciate these classic vessels, I doubt anyone --including Congress -- really believed they would be refurbished by NCL (or anyone who got what effectively is a government contract) over new builds or existing ships.

 

The PSA and Jones Act have been around since the 1800s. Congress knew full well its implications and restrictions when making the deal with NCLA. And, it hasn't been such a great deal for NCLA anyway. They hoped to have 5 ships circling the islands. The most they ever got up and running was 3 and now it's only 2.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/cruises/item.aspx?ak=44873288.blog&type=blog

[BruceMuzz]

DocF,

 

If you Google "Jones Act", you will find that this set of regulations is concerned primarily with the working conditions of American Seafarers.

 

The Passenger Services Act - often mistakenly called the Jones Act - is the set of cabotage regulations that concerns coastwise trading by foreign flag vessels.

[SS Tashmoo]

Latest pic

 

http://i29.tinypic.com/6emb1y.jpg

[H82seaUgo]

I just got ill:

 

[SS Tashmoo]

I just got ill:

 

 

 

That's a fake, the guy has posted fake pics even before the breaking began. However, she isn't much better than that.

[Spoonhafen]

That's a fake, the guy has posted fake pics even before the breaking began. However, she isn't much better than that.

Here is the latest photo

[Mark]

WOW! That is really GROSS!:(

[NYCruzr]

:(

[ATTACH]79459[/ATTACH] Here is the latest photo

 

That is one of the saddest ship breaking photos I have ever seen. You can still clearly see what ship she was, but looks like she is cut and bleeding....dying with no one to help her.

[Cruising89143]

Latest photos of the Blue Lady. Scroll down to the bottom.

 

http://www.midshipcentury.com/

[bjar719]

Latest photos of the Blue Lady. Scroll down to the bottom.

 

http://www.midshipcentury.com/

 

My first cruise was on the Norway in 1980 as a college graduation present from my parents. My then boyfriend, now husband, also came along. We had a wonderful week and the ship was beautiful! In the past 11 years, we have cruised 7 more times and have thoroughly enjoyed ourselves, but the majesty of the Norway has not been repeated. It has been a sad day to read this thread and learn of her fate. :( Thank you for the links to the pictures and the documentary on youtube.

[Crash43055]

Here's a link to the latest picture of the grand ol girl:

 

http://www.maritimematters.com/norway.html

 

bottom of the page taken June 11th.

 

gets more depressing by the month.

[SS Tashmoo]

This is the latest.