Royal Caribbean Fights Back!

[FinelyCruising]

I found some of the picutres I was looking for. I now see the canopy is actually an overhang above the life boats. I originally thought the canopy was the canopy of a life boat. Seeing some of these other picturs is helpful to me in determining the actual size of the canopy.

[kenf333]

I am working on my theory now, and will post it later. It will be based on what we do know.

 

Email me if you get a chance

Thanks. fixedoperationshlp@msn.com

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Does it appear to anyone else that the widow's attorney is less out front on this?

 

He may be holding back unitl Mr. Moto (aka Dr. Lee) comes in with his "findings", or complaints about RCCL not helping thier "investigation" (code for "we did not find anything to sue on, so let's just imagine we found something to sue on"). If I were RCCL I would not let the widow and her band of merry bandits on my property without a court order!!!

 

What exactly is the dummy test supposed to prove...how far the DH bounced? No, just trying to find something they can say could have been done/found/etc. if RCCL done something differently.

[sellwingri]

I don't know what actually happened and who was responsible for George Smith's disappearance but I do know that Royal Caribbean is lying. I was on that cruise, in a 7th floor balcony, 4 cabins over and 2 down from the Smith's cabin. The awning was outside our balcony. On the afternoon of the disappearance, RCCL was cleaning the awning, not at 6:15 as they're claiming. We had returned from a 1/2 day tour in Turkey, ate lunch, returned to our cabin and were sitting on our balcony mid afteroon - probably around 3pm. While we didn't see the blood, there were several members of the crew in hazmat gear, power washing the awning. We also heard the life boats being lowered and raised - probably to see if he possibly landed in one of them. We just thought it was a crew drill. Wihle I'm not certain of the exact time, I do know it was well before 6:15 dince we had early dining at 6pm and would have been at dinner when they're saying they cleaned it.

[FinelyCruising]

BP I'd be interested to learn more about the dummy test. Particulary the sound made when there is contact. I beleive the described reverb sound that neighbor Hyman heard that night was the contact made on top of that canopy.

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Sell, my understanding the only folks in the "hazmat gear" were Turkish investigators.

 

RCCL ain't stupid, there are too many folks watching...best show in town that day...for their every move not to be noted, filmed, etc.

 

Don't know why you did not see the blood, perhaps you should have leaned over further...just a little furter....ooooppss, one more dent in the old canipy.:D

 

So if you were right there when it happened, what did you do when you heard the thud?? Call it in, look out and see DH laying there?? If you would have done something, perhaps all of this could have been avoided!:eek:

[1corona4u]

Ok, here is my theory;

(quotes from Dateline, whom I trust)

At 2:30, they go to the Lounge. According to witnesses, they drink absinthe, they fight, she leaves at 3:30.

George and the guys get to the cabin between 3:30 and 4:00. Found out that Jennifer was not there. I'm guessing that between 3:30-3:45-4:00, they were off looking for Jennifer. They don't find her, so they head back to the cabin. Now it's 4:05.

 

"The deputy chief was awakened by what he thought were at least six loud voices, at the exact same time that — as Josh’s lawyer told the story— George and his drinking buddies had returned from a fruitless search for Jennifer who’d gone missing."

 

“A little after 4 o’clock in the morning, we were awakened by what I’d call loud cheering, something like a college drinking game,” says Hyman. “This happened two distinct times.”

They start to drink again, maybe doing shots of Absinthe, and challenging each other to do more. For all we know, part of this challenge might have been to "walk the rail". The sound of moving furniture may have been them jumping back off of the railing, to the balcony. (hey, guys do stupid things, like lighting their farts ;) )

 

 

Hyman: The voices continued. They weren’t as loud as they were during the drinking games. But then after a couple of minutes we heard voices outside the door of the Smith cabin. I don’t recall hearing the door open. I assumed they were leaving the party. But that was just my impression at the time.

 

For a few minutes the next door cabin quieted down, male voices in normal conversation, the chief couldn’t for the most part make out words or subjects.

 

This is where I think Jennifer came back to the cabin. That's why it got quiet. Just because she was not heard, doesn't mean she wasn't in there. I don't think, given the tight timeline, she was there for long.

 

Hyman: This went on for a period of time. And then we heard what sounded like arguing out on the balcony.

 

Murphy: Arguing?

 

Hyman: Yes. Several couple of male voices arguing. It wasn’t a physical confrontation. It was just like they were arguing over some type of point.

 

I think this was the guys & George. Jen probably had left at this point, and the guys & George were arguing over what had happened hours before, with Jen.(because he thought she was with another man) I think Jen, having nowhere else to go, found that out of the way dead end, and just sat down and passed out.

 

 

Hyman: Well, then I heard a voice just repeatedly say "goodnight" and my first assumption was that someone was trying to usher these people that were arguing out of the cabin. In fact, you could hear the progression through the cabin...

Now it was about 4:15 in the morning. Chief Hyman heard the adjacent cabin door open and voices receding in the hallway.

Hyman: So, I waited for a couple of seconds and then opened the door and looked out.

Murphy: What did you see?

Hyman: I saw three younger males walking down the hallway.

Young males — but only three of them — leaving George's cabin. Then through the wall, Chief Hyman heard a single male voice moving about speaking in a conversational tone though, oddly, no one replying. Then there was more loud noise.

 

This is where I think George has a tantrum. I don't think there were ever 4 guys and George. I think there were 3 and George. 2 accented, maybe 2 of the Russians, and Josh.

 

"Unbeknownst to Clete Hyman, Pat and Greg Lawyer on the other side of the Smiths, say they had been awakened not by the noise from the cabin but by three soft male voices— two of them accented— in the hallway before the commotion all started. They heard the cabin door open.

Pat Lawyer: I figured that this young man was drunk or inebriated. And they were calmly bringing him back to his room. In my mind, there was a young person who was saying, ‘Settle down, calm down, George."

--------------------------------

 

Hyman: And then for the last, maybe, couple of minutes it appeared to be concentrated out on the balcony area. The chairs on the balcony are metal so they make a different type of sound. I heard that noise and then there was silence. It got very quiet. Heard no voice. It was just very quiet.

 

Murphy: Silent for how long?

 

Hyman: Yes. Maybe three minutes, approximately, and at that point that’s when I heard what I described as a “horrific thud.”

Murphy: Tell me in detail...

Hyman: The first thought in my mind was somebody fell on the balcony because it was the last place I had heard anyone. However, I quickly dismissed that because the noise was just too loud. There was actually a reverberation to the noise. And somebody just falling you know off their feet to something on a balcony would not cause that much noise.

 

I think George scooted the chair to the rail, climbed up on it, closing the door to the cabin, because it was hot in the cabin, since the door had been open most of the night. We all know after the door is open for a while, it gets hot in there. Maybe he just went out to get some air, and wait for the cabin to cool off. This was probably about the same time Jennifer was found.

 

I think George lost his balance sitting on the rail, fell backwards onto the canopy. The blood shows a small pool, which to me means that he had to lay there for a second or two, maybe passed out, then woke, and either stood up, sat up, or rolled over, falling off the ship.

 

Now, here is something I can't reconcile.

 

If Clete Hyman looked in their cabin at 7:00am, and saw that the bed had been slept in, why didn't he see Jennifer sleeping in it?

 

Where was Jen at 7:00 am if the bed was empty? We know she didn't shower, or change clothes, so she wasn't in the bathroom. And she didn't get to the spa until 8:30.

 

At 7 a.m., the chief went out on his balcony to take some snapshots of the Turkish port and peeked around the partition to the Smith cabin next door. He saw cigarette butts, and the metal chairs and coffee table moved.

Hyman: I noticed that the drapes had been pulled back. That was allowing me to see in that the bed appeared to have been slept in. The sheets were in disarray.

Murphy: Did you notice if the furniture in the room had in fact been moved around?

Hyman: I didn’t want to sit there staring in the room, they could have been in there and this was just literally a quick glance. I couldn't see that far into the room.

 

After going through all of this, I'm not sure it even makes sense to me anymore, LOL, but I've spent an hour doing it, so I'm going to post it, and we can pick it apart from here, LOL...

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Corona, wow I had not picked up on DW not being in the bed at 7:00!!! Your good. Thanks...time line is a little tight, but possible.

 

She seems in a hurry to get out of the cabin, and not go back. I don't why, but that is my sense??

[1corona4u]

Corona, wow I had not picked up on DW not being in the bed at 7:00!!! Your good. Thanks...time line is a little tight, but possible.

 

She seems in a hurry to get out of the cabin, and not go back. I don't why, but that is my sense??

 

Part of the problem is all of the info we have comes from different sources. Everyone has a different take on it, such as Clete Hyman, and the Lawyers, who were also next to the Smith's. I also find it interesting that Clete said it sounded like drinking games, while the other people said it sounded like violence.

 

On some of the issues, I believe what he said, but I think he used a lot of his experience to color what he thinks he saw/heard. The lawyers, not having a background in investigation, viewed things differently.

 

Maybe Clete was really making an effort to hear what was going on, such as when he said they were talking in normal conversational voices....I have never been able to hear anyone in the cabin next to me, who was speaking in a normal tone of voice. I have this picture in my mind, of Clete, once his suspicion was aroused, standing next to the wall, with a glass against it.:D

[AFT_LOVER]

She had her camerman next door. Her & Capt Wright are yelling at him to yell back. They hear nothing. He goes on the balcony to yell at him & he opens the balcony doors saying "what?" He did not hear them yelling but hte soundman with her had is headphones off. Then Wright took both hands & pounded the walls with fists. No sound to camerman. They slammed cabinets, safe door, pushed chair into place, dumped stuff off the table, etc & camerman heard nothing. So neither of them buy the stories.

 

Then he zeros in on canopy with his camera on ZOOM and no indent. Then he went down to 7th floor with the canopy next to their balcony railin, very strange stateroom in my book. again perfectly flat not concave as Greta described, so her story changed. No indent again. He took a nailfile to peel paint, NONE!

 

 

Part of the problem is all of the info we have comes from different sources. Everyone has a different take on it, such as Clete Hyman, and the Lawyers, who were also next to the Smith's. I also find it interesting that Clete said it sounded like drinking games, while the other people said it sounded like violence.

 

On some of the issues, I believe what he said, but I think he used a lot of his experience to color what he thinks he saw/heard. The lawyers, not having a background in investigation, viewed things differently.

 

Maybe Clete was really making an effort to hear what was going on, such as when he said they were talking in normal conversational voices....I have never been able to hear anyone in the cabin next to me, who was speaking in a normal tone of voice. I have this picture in my mind, of Clete, once his suspicion was aroused, standing next to the wall, with a glass against it.:D

[AFT_LOVER]

he stated that she clung to him since she was quite off keel but not flirting with him, but definately with the BJ Manager as he called Lloyd. I think it was Greats that was told Lloyd was a Casino Manager in training.

 

 

What I got out of it is the guy she was "flirting with" havent heard of him yet. :confused:

[1corona4u]

She had her camerman next door. Her & Capt Wright are yelling at him to yell back. They hear nothing. He goes on the balcony to yell at him & he opens the balcony doors saying "what?" He did not hear them yelling but hte soundman with her had is headphones off. Then Wright took both hands & pounded the walls with fists. No sound to camerman. They slammed cabinets, safe door, pushed chair into place, dumped stuff off the table, etc & camerman heard nothing. So neither of them buy the stories.

 

Then he zeros in on canopy with his camera on ZOOM and no indent. Then he went down to 7th floor with the canopy next to their balcony railin, very strange stateroom in my book. again perfectly flat not concave as Greta described, so her story changed. No indent again. He took a nailfile to peel paint, NONE!

 

I think Greta just chose an ambiguous word. I think she meant for people to know that it was somewhat arched. Concave can mean either, depending on the situation. On the underside of the canopy, it is concave, on the upper, it is arched. It is arched. Not a flat surface. Here is a link to a pic, where you can see just how curved it is;

 

http://community.webshots.com/photo/490612467/492222831TTDgsx

(lower left corner in the pic)

 

And a couple more......

 

http://community.webshots.com/photo/482561202/482605754tJtFTj

http://community.webshots.com/photo/254096792/254100716EfQFHx

[AFT_LOVER]

but also the new item we are now hearing "George had to change his shirt" before they all went looking for Jen. WHY? We know about dropping off his sports coat at 11PM & it is still there with arm slammed in drawer the next morning.

 

 

MACOP I am thinking alot of things, including a scenario that George was not back in the cabin in those overnight hours and that the others who did come to the cabin used his key card for access.

 

I still want to know about the shoes.

[MszKitty]

I have been enjoying everyone's theory on this mystery. I think you all should book one of the Murder Mystery cruises put on by Whodunit Productions and Royal Caribbean....LOL

 

http://whodunitcruises.com/index.html

 

 

You'll put all the rest of the participants to shame! LOL

[Barky]

Ok, here is my theory;

(quotes from Dateline, whom I trust)

At 2:30, they go to the Lounge. According to witnesses, they drink absinthe, they fight, she leaves at 3:30.

 

George and the guys get to the cabin between 3:30 and 4:00. Found out that Jennifer was not there. I'm guessing that between 3:30-3:45-4:00, they were off looking for Jennifer. They don't find her, so they head back to the cabin. Now it's 4:05.

 

"The deputy chief was awakened by what he thought were at least six loud voices, at the exact same time that — as Josh’s lawyer told the story— George and his drinking buddies had returned from a fruitless search for Jennifer who’d gone missing."

 

“A little after 4 o’clock in the morning, we were awakened by what I’d call loud cheering, something like a college drinking game,” says Hyman. “This happened two distinct times.”

 

They start to drink again, maybe doing shots of Absinthe, and challenging each other to do more. For all we know, part of this challenge might have been to "walk the rail". The sound of moving furniture may have been them jumping back off of the railing, to the balcony. (hey, guys do stupid things, like lighting their farts ;) )

 

 

Hyman: The voices continued. They weren’t as loud as they were during the drinking games. But then after a couple of minutes we heard voices outside the door of the Smith cabin. I don’t recall hearing the door open. I assumed they were leaving the party. But that was just my impression at the time.

 

For a few minutes the next door cabin quieted down, male voices in normal conversation, the chief couldn’t for the most part make out words or subjects.

 

This is where I think Jennifer came back to the cabin. That's why it got quiet. Just because she was not heard, doesn't mean she wasn't in there. I don't think, given the tight timeline, she was there for long.

 

Hyman: This went on for a period of time. And then we heard what sounded like arguing out on the balcony.

 

Murphy: Arguing?

 

Hyman: Yes. Several couple of male voices arguing. It wasn’t a physical confrontation. It was just like they were arguing over some type of point.

 

I think this was the guys & George. Jen probably had left at this point, and the guys & George were arguing over what had happened hours before, with Jen.(because he thought she was with another man) I think Jen, having nowhere else to go, found that out of the way dead end, and just sat down and passed out.

 

 

Hyman: Well, then I heard a voice just repeatedly say "goodnight" and my first assumption was that someone was trying to usher these people that were arguing out of the cabin. In fact, you could hear the progression through the cabin...

 

Now it was about 4:15 in the morning. Chief Hyman heard the adjacent cabin door open and voices receding in the hallway.

 

Hyman: So, I waited for a couple of seconds and then opened the door and looked out.

 

Murphy: What did you see?

 

Hyman: I saw three younger males walking down the hallway.

Young males — but only three of them — leaving George's cabin. Then through the wall, Chief Hyman heard a single male voice moving about speaking in a conversational tone though, oddly, no one replying. Then there was more loud noise.

 

This is where I think George has a tantrum. I don't think there were ever 4 guys and George. I think there were 3 and George. 2 accented, maybe 2 of the Russians, and Josh.

 

"Unbeknownst to Clete Hyman, Pat and Greg Lawyer on the other side of the Smiths, say they had been awakened not by the noise from the cabin but by three soft male voices— two of them accented— in the hallway before the commotion all started. They heard the cabin door open.

 

Pat Lawyer: I figured that this young man was drunk or inebriated. And they were calmly bringing him back to his room. In my mind, there was a young person who was saying, ‘Settle down, calm down, George."

--------------------------------

 

Hyman: And then for the last, maybe, couple of minutes it appeared to be concentrated out on the balcony area. The chairs on the balcony are metal so they make a different type of sound. I heard that noise and then there was silence. It got very quiet. Heard no voice. It was just very quiet.

 

 

Murphy: Silent for how long?

 

 

Hyman: Yes. Maybe three minutes, approximately, and at that point that’s when I heard what I described as a “horrific thud.”

 

Murphy: Tell me in detail...

 

Hyman: The first thought in my mind was somebody fell on the balcony because it was the last place I had heard anyone. However, I quickly dismissed that because the noise was just too loud. There was actually a reverberation to the noise. And somebody just falling you know off their feet to something on a balcony would not cause that much noise.

 

I think George scooted the chair to the rail, climbed up on it, closing the door to the cabin, because it was hot in the cabin, since the door had been open most of the night. We all know after the door is open for a while, it gets hot in there. Maybe he just went out to get some air, and wait for the cabin to cool off. This was probably about the same time Jennifer was found.

 

I think George lost his balance sitting on the rail, fell backwards onto the canopy. The blood shows a small pool, which to me means that he had to lay there for a second or two, maybe passed out, then woke, and either stood up, sat up, or rolled over, falling off the ship.

 

Now, here is something I can't reconcile.

 

If Clete Hyman looked in their cabin at 7:00am, and saw that the bed had been slept in, why didn't he see Jennifer sleeping in it?

 

Where was Jen at 7:00 am if the bed was empty? We know she didn't shower, or change clothes, so she wasn't in the bathroom. And she didn't get to the spa until 8:30.

 

At 7 a.m., the chief went out on his balcony to take some snapshots of the Turkish port and peeked around the partition to the Smith cabin next door. He saw cigarette butts, and the metal chairs and coffee table moved.

Hyman: I noticed that the drapes had been pulled back. That was allowing me to see in that the bed appeared to have been slept in. The sheets were in disarray.

Murphy: Did you notice if the furniture in the room had in fact been moved around?

Hyman: I didn’t want to sit there staring in the room, they could have been in there and this was just literally a quick glance. I couldn't see that far into the room.

 

After going through all of this, I'm not sure it even makes sense to me anymore, LOL, but I've spent an hour doing it, so I'm going to post it, and we can pick it apart from here, LOL...

 

I wondered about her not being visible at 7 also. Maybe she had to "p"? Or she was among the disarrayed sheets and he just couldn't see her. Or she was off committing other nefarious acts? I just don't know.

 

I, too, picture Clete with his ear pressed up against the bulkhead, with or without the glass. LOL

 

Corona are you this thorough in everything you do? I'm impressed!

[Barky]

I have been enjoying everyone's theory on this mystery. I think you all should book one of the Murder Mystery cruises put on by Whodunit Productions and Royal Caribbean....LOL

 

http://whodunitcruises.com/index.html

 

 

You'll put all the rest of the participants to shame! LOL

 

I think Corona should be team captain!!!

[Barky]

I think Greta just chose an ambiguous word. I think she meant for people to know that it was somewhat arched. Concave can mean either, depending on the situation. On the underside of the canopy, it is concave, on the upper, it is arched. It is arched. Not a flat surface. Here is a link to a pic, where you can see just how curved it is;

 

http://community.webshots.com/photo/490612467/492222831TTDgsx

(lower left corner in the pic)

 

And a couple more......

 

http://community.webshots.com/photo/482561202/482605754tJtFTj

http://community.webshots.com/photo/254096792/254100716EfQFHx

 

You are correct. She corrected concave to convex in her blog the next day.

 

Thanks for the pics. They do show the arch.

[MszKitty]

I think Corona should be team captain!!!

 

She's got my vote! :D

[Barky]

but also the new item we are now hearing "George had to change his shirt" before they all went looking for Jen. WHY? We know about dropping off his sports coat at 11PM & it is still there with arm slammed in drawer the next morning.

 

I mentioned the shirt change a while back and it still confuses me. I opined that he had a bloody nose; perhaps he bumped into a wall while being escorted? Of course Jennifer says he doesn't walk into walls but then most of what she says leaves me most scepticle (sp?)

[kenf333]

She's got my vote! :D

 

Yepp team captain !!!!!!!

[canucks4]

I was studying the photos posted - what is the blue covered pole to the right back side of the canopy - could it be a camera stand - also in the third picture - looking down the roof of the canopy overhang - half way down, is there a camera position? Study them for a second and see where it "COULD BE' possible a camera was present.

[1corona4u]

I was studying the photos posted - what is the blue covered pole to the right back side of the canopy - could it be a camera stand - also in the third picture - looking down the roof of the canopy overhang - half way down, is there a camera position? Study them for a second and see where it "COULD BE' possible a camera was present.

 

My feeling is, that the blue cover, is on a switch for the lifeboats. Here's a bigger shot...stll looking for some with better detail....

 

http://image10.webshots.com/11/2/26/20/127222620NFJMsL_fs.jpg

[kenf333]

My feeling is, that the blue cover, is on a switch for the lifeboats. Here's a bigger shot...stll looking for some with better detail....

 

http://image10.webshots.com/11/2/26/20/127222620NFJMsL_fs.jpg

 

Still having a hard time with seing someone fall onto it and off into the sea with no help. There is not enough pitch.

[1corona4u]

Still having a hard time with seing someone fall onto it and off into the sea with no help. There is not enough pitch.

 

Depends on what kind of seas they were in too I suppose....remember too, he was drunk...add to that the fact that it would have been slippery, from the blood, and the sea spray...I can see it happening......

[kenf333]

Depends on what kind of seas they were in too I suppose....remember too, he was drunk...add to that the fact that it would have been slippery, from the blood, and the sea spray...I can see it happening......

No, it appears there is only 2/3 inch rise.

check mail.