Dubai Ports World question

[Big Spanker]

Yes I will continue to stick to the issue like my previous post did.

You say "we may be possibly be breaching our national security" Just exactly does that mean. You have a feeling. So do I. I have a feeling that there are a bunch of people who haven't checked out the facts of this deal. I have a feeling that the administration should listen to all international calls coming from Al Quida operatives into the US. Yes I believe that those enemy combatants should be isolated in Cuba, made uncomfortable and be asked what they know. Do you really think that those who agreed to this believe there is a grave National security issue?

That they would forego our national security for this sale between two private businesses I might add. What would the administration stand to gain by this? What would be the motive? How can you explain the ownership of other ports throughout the world that ship freely with the US? Should we ban shipments from them because of your feelings. The UAE are one of our only allies in the region now we should welch on a deal because a few politicians feel it is not right? Why didn't they object to this a week ago when it first came out? Well my FEEEEEEELING is they didn't care or they didn't feel it was a security interest that was worth the scrutiny. May be they are lazy politicians waiting to be hand fed a story by the media so they can check the political wind and make sure that they are up wind. So I stick to the issue: We should make sure that we remove all UAE business dealings from the US. Businesses, Planes, Real estate etc. Make them Divest 100% cause you know I got a feeling. Way to spread the love Rev

Deanhamy

[greatam]

How many Arabs are serving as crew members on the ships you all sail on...whats a few more at the port gonna mean?

 

This has nothing to do with Arabs. What it does have to do with is Al Queda afflilitated, radical fundamentalist Muslims. And the ability to infiltrate or glean information from insiders working at the port.

 

It has nothing to do with customs or checking the containers when they initially enter the United States. Those containers would probably be "clean". What it does have to do with is someone having access to those containers, inside the port facility, while they are waiting to be distributed. Sometimes containers are in the port facility for up to 72 hours before they are hauled away for distribution. It is during this time critical period, AFTER they have cleared customs, that problems could occur. Security guards are on duty all night-have free access to most of the port.

 

Biologicals can be slipped into containers. Container seals are regularly broken and resealed. It is called a seal record. So long as the seal numbers are recorded on manifests and the broken seals accompany the manifest, everyone feels safe and secure. All you need is one person, with bad intentions, to poison a cruise ship, a warehouse, a shopping center, etc.

 

Sure, this could happen today. BUT. All you need is one Al Queda affliliated person or even a sympathizer to undo all the security in the world. What if that person is the employee verifying other employees for security checks? Don't think it couldn't happen.

[DanJ]

What if that Al Queda sleeper is one of the hundreds of thousands of Muslims running various businesses we all frequent daily. I mean, every second variety store around here is run by somebody from and Arab country, whether they actually lived there or not. Don't you think it would be easier for a terrorist group to infect the nations food supply from the retail end than trying to get on the inside of a port operation controlled by a company with a vested interest for that terrorist group not to infiltrate it?

 

I'm having a nightmare thinking people actually think this way. What does Carnival have to do with any of this? In fact, what does Bush have to do with any of this?

 

I know this can't be a serious question...you appeared to know what you were talking about.

 

Of course it's a serious question. Some people are trying to make this sound like Bush personally made this deal, which he has no power to do. This is a business transaction, which by the way, is between 2 non-American companies, so again, what does Bush have to do with this? I think somebody must be taking this "most powerful man on the planet" thing a little too far if they think the President of the United States can call up the board of directors of a UK company and say how much he would really appreciate it if they would kindly sell their company to his buddy in the UAE.

[greatam]

The following IS the problem. This was posted by Bill Gertz in the Washington Times today.

 

"The Coast Guard is responsible for port security, tracking ships, crews and cargo and search vessels based on intelligence. There is no cohesive hiring or screening process for port workers, however. "

 

Link to entire article

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060222-122115-8912r.htm

[greatam]

What if that Al Queda sleeper is one of the hundreds of thousands of Muslims running various businesses we all frequent daily. I mean, every second variety store around here is run by somebody from and Arab country, whether they actually lived there or not. Don't you think it would be easier for a terrorist group to infect the nations food supply from the retail end than trying to get on the inside of a port operation controlled by a company with a vested interest for that terrorist group not to infiltrate it?

 

The retail end may "get" a few people. Remember the Tylenol scare some years ago? Took a lot of Tylenol off the shelf, but only a few people were killed or hurt. Not a good thing, but not enough people for radicals to waste the time on.

 

But the wholesale and distribution end could be a large disaster. Poison 45,000 pounds (container load) of food (not likely). Much more likely-biologicals or gas in foodstuffs-detonated in a large shopping center, cruise ship, indoor football game, etc. Now you have caused some real damage. And it would truly only take one or two with bad intentions to kill or seriously injure 1000's of people. If I'm not mistaken, Sarin and Ricin are pretty easy to make.

[greatam]

Just so everyone gets the idea what we are dealing with. The caption with the picture is WRONG. This container is NOT leaving the port. Explanation below.

 

http://apnews.myway.com/image/20060221/PORTS_SECURITY.sff_FLJC109_20060221171739.html?date=20060222&docid=D8FU8GK02

 

This trailer has just come off the ship. It went through Xray at customs. The manifest has been cleared and it will now be staged in an area where it will be picked up by a road tractor. May be taken a short distance out of the port to a warehouse or may be taken across the country. I am sure you have all see the containers on flat bed trucks.

 

Let's examine the vulnerable points.

1) Shag driver (local port truck pictured) has access to the manifest, the seals, and the containers.

2) Security guards on duty all night where containers are staged. Containers sometimes are at the port 72 hours after customs clearance, before they are moved outside port.

3) Gate guard who sometimes get in the trailers to check the loads. Has access to seals and manifests

4) Trailer gets parked at warehouse. Someone inside the port, with access to the manifest, can relay information EXACTLY where that trailer is headed. Drive through Jersey City, NJ off RT. 15E and look at all the containers sitting around. 1/2 or better are empty, waiting to go back to the port. But there are a lot of loaded containers, sitting around every day. It's pretty easy to get a PHONY bill of lading (they sell them in the truck stops) and steal a container.

 

A lot of vulnerability.

[UCFKnight85]

People- keep some perspective.

 

First off, security will STILL be run by the U.S. government. I repeat, ALL security matters at the port will be LEAD and OPERATED by U.S. officials. Absolutely NO UAE officials will be in charge of security matters, NONE.

 

Knowing that, how can the government really intervene? If security is accounted for, why would the government step in on a business transaction? Why should the UAE be treated differently than the Brits, Germans, Swedes, etc? The UAE is a very secure, wealthy construction that has strict guidelines for entrance into their country and is as westernized as they come. Hundreds of pro American golfers just participated in the Dubai classic. Would U.S. golfers go to a tournament in a rogue terrorist state?

 

Please calm down and stop over reacting. The presidents' concern is safety, and all security remains in U.S. hands.

 

And yes, I'd definitly board a ship in a UAE port.

[wraithe]

Would I board a ship in a port run by DB World? Yes.

 

Do I think that Mr. Bush has reasons why he won't step in front of this deal? Yes, absolutely, try the air field that we use in the UAE, the port of Dubai that our military uses frequently, and many other intelligence assets provided by the UAE.

 

Let me get this straight, we can't trace and listen in to telephone calls that originate overseas to the U. S. because of privacy concerns. We practically strip search 80 year old Japanese ladies and 5 year old American Indians at the airport because we can't racially profile Arab men, but we can profile an entire country because some of the money and people involved in 9/11 were from there. Reality check folks, a whole lot of the money came through and pilot training for the 9/11 attacks happened in Florida, are we going to build a fence across the state line and disassociate our country from the State of Florida?:confused: They arrested three men in Ohio this last weekend for plotting to kill American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, two of whom are US citizens, are we going to build a fence around Ohio? Do we stop depositing money in banks with a branch in OH? Do we stop buying groceries from stores where these men shopped?:eek: If you really want to talk about terrorist support, maybe we should alienate Italy, after all they've paid millions of dollars directly to terrorists in the form of ransoms. That's fact, not feeling.

 

Wow, if you stop cherry picking your facts, you might realize just how silly it sounds to alienate a country that has helped us considerably in the war on terror. You can't take it back, once you smack down the UAE you can pretty much forget any more help from "moderate Arabs" and I couldn't blame them. Black Americans are still angry about slavery, and that ended almost 150 years ago.

 

Just MHO!

Wraithe

[RevSmith]

Maybe you could enlighten us with a few specific facts regarding the way they have helped us. Is that possible.

[wraithe]

Maybe you could enlighten us with a few specific facts regarding the way they have helped us. Is that possible.

 

Only what I read in the papers Rev. That would be arresting and turning over people to the US authorities, intel for the CIA and military, allow use of strategic airfields, allow the use of their ports for refueling and restocking Navy ships, staging and stockpile areas for the military to store equipment used in the fight, things like that. If you're looking for specific items, I don't have them at hand right this second, but if you haven't seen any of this, I believe I can find links to support.

 

I'm really torn about this, at the gut level it just doesn't make sense to let it happen, but when I use my head and think it through, I can't find any rational reason to oppose it. For heavens sake, Toshiba is about to purchase Westinghouse Electric from British Nuclear Fuels. So what you say. Well, in 1988 while I was riding a 35 year old submarine out to sea, operating a nuclear power plant designed by Westinghouse, Toshiba was selling machinery to the Soviet Union so they could make quiet submarine propellors, advancing the Soviet's technology by decades practically overnight. That same company, Toshiba is about to buy the only significant company in the US capable of producing civilian nuke power plants. Where's the media outcry? Why isn't Congress wringing its hands and beating its chest over this? Because they're not Arabs. Is that it? I don't know, but I suspect that's the reason.

Wraithe

[RevSmith]

Maybe this is a good thing, all this press and publicity...maybe this will bring to the surface just how many cargo trailers sit at the docks for long periods of time without being inspected, exray etc. The docks have always been one of our weekest points...

[greatam]

People- keep some perspective.

 

First off, security will STILL be run by the U.S. government. I repeat, ALL security matters at the port will be LEAD and OPERATED by U.S. officials. Absolutely NO UAE officials will be in charge of security matters, NONE.

 

Please calm down and stop over reacting. The presidents' concern is safety, and all security remains in U.S. hands.

 

And yes, I'd definitly board a ship in a UAE port.

 

EXTERNAL security and customs will still be handled by the US. Outside the ports, the waterways, the ships, etc. The security INSIDE the ports is handled by the the port facilities company. What you are saying is we will be able to stop nuke or biological material entering the US. I agree. Internal security leaves a large gap in security and the US very vulnerable. One bad security guard, one bad gate security agent, one bad person processing employee credentials and you have a disaster. 911 didn't happen with anything from overseas, except men and money. Those two things are still available.

 

I am NOT anti-George Bush, in fact just the opposite. I find it hard to believe that CFIUS did this behind his back and then informed him. It has been reported that CFIUS has been looking at this since late December/early January (Sean Hannity yesterday). And the PRESIDENT just heard about it last week. Don't you think MAYBE Treasury should have at least sent a two line memo???

 

Looking into the record of CFIUS, there has only been 1 deal they have EVER turned down. That deal was financially shaky. This deal is not much better http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004612.htm Why was NOT the additional 45 day review period utilized, as provided for in the CFIUS law?

 

"The administration's review of the deal was conducted by the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, a body that was created in 1975 to review foreign investments in the country that could affect national security. Under that review, officials from the Defense, State, Commerce and Transportation Departments, along with the National Security Council and other agencies, were charged with raising questions and passing judgment. They found no problems to warrant the next stage of review, a 45-day investigation with results reported to the president for a final decision.

 

However, a 1993 amendment to the law stipulates that such an investigation is mandatory when the acquiring company is controlled by or acting on behalf of a foreign government. Administration officials said they conducted additional inquires because of the ties to the United Arab Emirates, but they could not say why a 45-day investigation did not occur."

 

We own a global logistics company. We deal with 4 of the six ports EVERY day, M-F. I am NOT worried about something coming INTO the US. I am VERY worried about something being placed in a container, AFTER it has cleared Customs. I don't want to be the owner of the company that delivers foodstuffs to a cruise ship that contain biologicals or gas. Don't think it can't happen!!!

[greatam]

maybe this will bring to the surface just how many cargo trailers sit at the docks for long periods of time without being inspected, exray etc.

 

Your statement is incorrect. Containers are pulled off the ship and immediately take to either Xray or inspection. Much like you go through the airport-either walk through the metal detector OR go to secondary screening.

 

Containers MUST be removed from the port within 72 hours of Customs clearance. DEMURRAGE occurs after 72 hours and that is EXPENSIVE for the shippers. No containers sit for more than 72 hours after clearance or the trucking company responsible for moving them gets stuck with the bill.

 

I worry about who is guarding the containers in the up to 72 hour period.

[RevSmith]

Alright...I can't argue the point with you, all I know is what my sister in law who works down at the docks here at Riveria Beach tells me. I truely don't think she is lying...any way...time will tell what will happened. There is nothing you or I can personally do about this...but according to the news today...It looks like my concerns will soon be over. So I have labored this long enough! Rush agrees with you...so why don't you go tune in!

[LonW]

Your statement is incorrect. Containers are pulled off the ship and immediately take to either Xray or inspection. Much like you go through the airport-either walk through the metal detector OR go to secondary screening.

 

 

Containers MUST be removed from the port within 72 hours of Customs clearance. DEMURRAGE occurs after 72 hours and that is EXPENSIVE for the shippers. No containers sit for more than 72 hours after clearance or the trucking company responsible for moving them gets stuck with the bill.

 

I worry about who is guarding the containers in the up to 72 hour period.

 

Only about 5% are Xrayed or inspected, this is a fact.

[wraithe]

Alright...I can't argue the point with you, all I know is what my sister in law who works down at the docks here at Riveria Beach tells me. I truely don't think she is lying...any way...time will tell what will happened. There is nothing you or I can personally do about this...but according to the news today...It looks like my concerns will soon be over. So I have labored this long enough! Rush agrees with you...so why don't you go tune in!

 

I agree with you on your second point, there's really not much we can do about it. On your last point, I don't particularly care for Rush, he's not one of my faves. Personally I record Neal Boortz out of Atlanta, and Gunny Bob out of Denver off their internet feeds on Replay Radio. Sort of like Tivo for internet radio. I can listen to their entire show on my MP3 player, when I want, & fast forward through the commercials.

Wraithe

[greatam]

Only about 5% are Xrayed or inspected, this is a fact.

 

If they are precleared before they reach the US (which most are), they are NOT phyically inspected. But there are also random xray and inspections of the precleared containers, just like the random secondary screenings at the airport for people. There are many standards for preclearance and different companies and different industries have different preclearance requirments. Preclearance is something you must sign up for WAAAAY in advance, so the proper checks can be done.

 

ANY container that is NOT precleared is subject to Xray and/or physical inspection. What Customs actually opens for inspection is about 5%.

 

Preclearance Example:There would be almost no need to physically inspect a load of frozen tuna, if the tuna went directly from Japan to the West Coast, from a credentialed Japanese company and the ORIGINAL container seals were intact. If the seals are NOT original (matching the original manifest-which is NOW transmitted electronically BEFORE the container leaves origination) then the container will be opened . More likely, the fish was purchased in Japan by an American importer and is riding under the importers bond and customs papers.

 

As I said before, I don't worry as much about something coming INTO the USA. But I greatly worry about those containers once they hit the ground in the port.

[DanJ]

As I said before, I don't worry as much about something coming INTO the USA. But I greatly worry about those containers once they hit the ground in the port.

 

And what can happen to those containers in the port can also happen to it anywhere else after it leaves the port. I don't think your company can be any better at detecting a terrorist operative who infiltriates your organization as DPW or P&O or Fedex for that matter. The trucking company you contract with would probably be easier since there's always somebody looking to make a fast buck.

[greatam]

And what can happen to those containers in the port can also happen to it anywhere else after it leaves the port. I don't think your company can be any better at detecting a terrorist operative who infiltriates your organization as DPW or P&O or Fedex for that matter. The trucking company you contract with would probably be easier since there's always somebody looking to make a fast buck.

 

We move the containers from the port DIRECTLY to our warehouse in NYC with our own equipment. Before the second demurrage applies, we must have the containers stripped of product and back to the port. The containers are essentially rented from the shipping line or a company who specializes in containers.

 

Yes, containers could be contaminated other places and that is one of the vulnerabilities. But it is the least vulnerable on my list, as MOST companies move the containers directly to warehouses for stripping or load on flat beds for long haul transport. And truck driver's as a general rule are very patriotic and wouldn't think of harming the US for any amount of money. Sure it could happen.

 

By the way, the "job opportunities" page at DPW is interesting.

Since MOST positions require fluent English, where do you think the employees are going to be working?

Would fluent English be required in Dubai for MECHANICS?

 

http://www.dpworld.ae/jobs/jobs.html#unt

[wraithe]

By the way, the "job opportunities" page at DPW is interesting.

Since MOST positions require fluent English, where do you think the employees are going to be working?

Would fluent English be required in Dubai for MECHANICS?

 

It's entirely possible they could be working anywhere, since English is the accepted language of business, it's the standard almost everywhere, and that would include ports the world over. The pilot, dock personnel and shore power trailer operator that tended my ship in Chania, Crete all spoke fluent English. Once again, since many of the ships serviced in Dubai are American warships, it makes sense they'd want people working for them that spoke English so they could easily communicate with the crew. French aviators hate the fact that they have to speak English with French air traffic controllers, but that's the standard. Just a thought.

Wraithe

[c_galle]

The following IS the problem. This was posted by Bill Gertz in the Washington Times today.

 

"The Coast Guard is responsible for port security, tracking ships, crews and cargo and search vessels based on intelligence. There is no cohesive hiring or screening process for port workers, however. "

 

Link to entire article

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060222-122115-8912r.htm

 

The reason. Explain one situation where a worker in the US could do anything. If contraband is brought in, it either gets pas the screening or not. A Nuke packed in a container would get into America no easier with Terrorist working the Port.

 

You can't stop the embarkation of cargo and the cargo goes to an independent company. There is no issue here at all. Anybody can be a terrorist as Muslim is a Religion. That means anyone can have these beliefs. And not all Muslims are bad. We seem to remember something called the Crusades. Didn't Christians kill and try to take all of Europe and Asia?

[c_galle]

Maybe you could enlighten us with a few specific facts regarding the way they have helped us. Is that possible.

 

I have been stationed in UAE. I have trained there military. I have seen Aircraft strike targets in AFG and IZ after taking off from UAE. They gave 100 Million to the US after Katrina hit. I have seen intel from them.

[c_galle]

"In September 2002, Coast Guard inspectors searched a container ship in New Jersey based on intelligence information and because the inspectors detected radiation in the vessel. The cargo turned out to be ceramic tiles."

 

I took this from Wikipedia. I have great respect for the "Puddle Jumpers". I took this blurb because it was on the unclass side. Intel and Radiation Detection are two things that add to the 5 percent of containers checked.

 

According to Title 33 of the Code of Federal Regulations, vessels entering American waters must provide in advance to the Coast Guard data about the ship's cargo, the names and passport numbers of each crew member, details about the ship's ownership and agents, and a list of recent port calls in a "Notice of Arrival" form. This information is collated in the National Vessel Movement Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia, and shared with U.S. Naval Intelligence in Suitland, Maryland as well as with the Port State Control (PSC) offices in major ports throughout the United States. From there, the Captain of the Port or his representatives in the PSC determines if the vessel involved needs a security inspection, a safety inspection, or both. Vessels must be inspected every 6 months.

[c_galle]

How long have you been in the Navy? Only one answer acceptable.:)

[wraithe]

How long have you been in the Navy? Only one answer acceptable.:)

 

I retired in July 2004 as a nuke ETC, after completing my 20, I work now for the VA. I was a quitter as one of my buds used to say, "20 is for quitters". As you can see from my sig, I was a submariner. Spent my entire career in boomers, we hide with pride. How about yourself? Sounds like you may be a spook. Did I have the right answer????:cool:

Wraithe