HAL Bus from Denali To Whittier

[jbpcalifornia]

Looking at the HAL D61 9/14 cruisetour, which includes the bus from Denali to Whittier.  Last time we did this itinerary on Princess, we took the train.  I thought I read the bus is quicker then the train, but I just phoned HAL and they had very little info to offer, but said the bus takes 10 hours!  That's an awfully long time on the bus and their must be lots of stops and a layover some where.  

Does anyone know the precise bus itinerary and schedule for this trip?  Very little info on the HAL website.  Yes, I know the train is better, but we are looking at this particular tour for a number of reasons.

Thanks!

[wolfie11]

I can drive from Denali to Whittier in five hours.  I assume the bus makes scenic stops and may visit Aleyeska, Portage Glacier, the Conservation Center, or give you time in Anchorage.  They likely time the bus to arrive before the train, which gets in around 1900.

[GTJ]

While there is some flexibility that drivers may be given, the real limitation is imposed by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration through its hours of service regulation. Drivers who carry passengers are limited to 10 hours driving, after 8 consecutive hours off-duty. Given that this limitation includes the driving time to get to Denali, and from Whittier to the garage, the time you spend aboard must necessarily be less than 10 hours. The regularly scheduled bus is between 6 hours 30 minutes and 6 hours 45 minutes from Denali to Anchorage, plus 1 hour 45 minutes from Anchorage to Whittier. That is a total of 8 hours 15 minutes to 8 hours 30 minutes, plus any meal stop. The time may vary based on stops, or lack thereof, by the individual driver assigned. This compares to 9 hours 20 minutes by railroad. I would never rely on the information provided by sales agents for cruise lines. They're located in a call center, seek to separate passengers from their money, and rarely have any operational knowledge or experience beyond the script given to them. Best to use the Canada and Alaska Timetable to research these types of details.

[wolfie11]

43 minutes ago, GTJ said:

Drivers who carry passengers are limited to 10 hours driving, after 8 consecutive hours off-duty...

Does this apply to regularly scheduled carriers only or to tours as well?  I have a friend who drives the Kantishna bus tour in Denali, which is 13 hours.  The bus tour to the Arctic Circle and back from Fairbanks is around 11 hours.

 

 

[oaktreerb]

The bus will have a lunch stop and bathroom stops appx every 2 hours.  It’s a nice bus but the train is nicer.  The train doesn’t have to stop for meals or “pottty breaks”.  

 

The bus is faster than the train between Denali and Fairbanks and it only makes one comfort stop.

[AKStafford]

4 hours ago, GTJ said:

Drivers who carry passengers are limited to 10 hours driving, after 8 consecutive hours off-duty.

Alaska has special rules: https://www.freightwaves.com/news/hours-of-service-and-the-alaska-exemption

[GTJ]

21 hours ago, AKStafford said:

Alaska has special rules: https://www.freightwaves.com/news/hours-of-service-and-the-alaska-exemption

Good catch on the Alaska exception. That exception at Part 395 of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations, used to be codified alongside the regular rules applying to the rest of the United States, where it would be easily seen by anyone reading the regular rule, but are now separately codified and easily overlooked (as I did). I was curious as to the exception, so I took a look at the regulatory history. The Alaska exception was effected by order of the Interstate Commerce Commission (“ICC”) made on April 26, 1963. See 28 Fed. Reg. 4198 (Apr. 27, 1963). The entire explanation of the exception was as follows: “It further appearing, that a petition has been filed by the Alaska Carriers Association, Inc., Consolidated Freightways of Delaware, and Teamsters Local 959, requesting that certain sections, pertaining to hours of service of drivers, of the Code of Federal Regulations, be amended.” Not much of a record to consider! Given that the petition was from the freight carrier industry, not from the passenger carrier industry, it is legitimately questionable whether the safety of passengers was actually considered in the ICC’s adoption of this exception. It should also be noted that the exception was applied to the driving of motor vehicles generally, not distinguishing between motor vehicles of property and motor vehicles of passengers, further supporting the idea that passenger safety was not considered by the ICC. It may well have been that, in 1963, the limited trucking infrastructure and paucity of highway traffic in Alaska justified the relaxation of the hours of service rules for motor carriers of property. But today, in 2023, the infrastructure and highway traffic in central Alaska would seem to no longer justify—if it ever justified—the relaxation of safety regulations applying to the carriage of passengers. The Alaska exception, at least to the extent of its application to motor carriers of passengers, ought to be revoked.

[GTJ]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:07 PM, wolfie11 said:

The bus tour to the Arctic Circle and back from Fairbanks is around 11 hours.

If you're referring to the Dalton Highway Express service, between Fairbanks and Deadhorse, it is advertised as 16 hours one-way. See http://www.daltonhighwayexpress.com/schedule. I would expect there two be two drivers, working eight hours each. However, I have no first hand knowledge how the work is actually performed.

[AKStafford]

7 hours ago, GTJ said:

I was curious as to the exception, so I took a look at the regulatory history.

I drove for Holland America a couple decades ago, when they still docked in Seward... Ship days started at 2am in the yard in Anchorage. We were to be on the road by 3am, on the dock in Seward by 6am. Over the next few hours we'd all get passengers and head off, most of us headed to the Anchorage Airport or the hotels or the Egan Center in Anchorage. We'd dump them off, head back to the Yard to refuel, clean our coaches, load on snack boxes and head back to the Egan Center, hotels or airport to load on passengers headed to catch the ship in Seward. The last coach would be out of Anchorage by about 4pm. We'd drop our passengers and head back to Anchorage, with the last of us rolling in at 10pm. A grueling 20 hour day. Eight hours off and we'd start the next day at 6am.

[oaktreerb]

9 hours ago, AKStafford said:

I drove for Holland America a couple decades ago, when they still docked in Seward... Ship days started at 2am in the yard in Anchorage. We were to be on the road by 3am, on the dock in Seward by 6am. Over the next few hours we'd all get passengers and head off, most of us headed to the Anchorage Airport or the hotels or the Egan Center in Anchorage. We'd dump them off, head back to the Yard to refuel, clean our coaches, load on snack boxes and head back to the Egan Center, hotels or airport to load on passengers headed to catch the ship in Seward. The last coach would be out of Anchorage by about 4pm. We'd drop our passengers and head back to Anchorage, with the last of us rolling in at 10pm. A grueling 20 hour day. Eight hours off and we'd start the next day at 6am.

We were probably on one of your buses.  We always found the Holland America drivers to be personable and knowledgeable. The bus was always comfortable and clean and we loved the commentary along the way.  From my viewpoint HAL hires good people.  I have traveled on a lot of the bus trips and have always been impressed by the “people skills” of those bus drivers on the longer itineraries in Alaska and the Yukon.  The stories were fun and for the most part the facts were accurate.  

 

I had no idea how grueling your schedule was.  Thanks for taking good care of us!

 

 

 

[GTJ]

10 hours ago, AKStafford said:

A grueling 20 hour day. Eight hours off and we'd start the next day at 6am.

But not all of the on-duty hours are clocked as being driving, so within the FMCSRs . . . so long as there is the eight hours off-duty. But these days, and at least so long as one is not truly in a remote part of Alaska that is distinct from the lower 48, there's really not much difference in driving and safety in Alaska. The roads are similar to those that one might encounter in, say, Colorado. The hours of service, particular for carriers of passengers, should really be the same. If the carriers established garages in Seward and Whittier, then they could shave off 3 to 6 hours of driving time daily and live within the regulations applicable in the rest of the United States. I assume they have garages or lodging facilities in Denali or Healy for drivers. But the idea of a "grueling 20 hour day" does not sit well with me when passenger safety--and the safety of other motorists and non-motorists on the highways--is at stake.

[GTJ]

5 minutes ago, oaktreerb said:

From my viewpoint HAL hires good people. I have traveled on a lot of the bus trips and have always been impressed by the “people skills” of those bus drivers on the longer itineraries in Alaska and the Yukon.

Many bus companies--not all, though--take the view that "people skills" are more important than driving skills when hiring. The reason is that driving skills are technical, and can be taught. On the other hand, "people skills" are innate and cannot easily be taught. Some bus companies believe that they can save money on driver training by recruiting professional truck drivers, who already have the technical skills relating to driving. But taking the professional driver out of the truck and into a bus is not always a success story . . . it is important to assess their "people skills."

 

As a point of interest, note that Holland America Line utilizes Royal Hyway Tours (s/b/a HAP Alaska) to provide the bus service in Alaska, both companies being commonly owned by Carnival Corporation. Holland America Line, itself, does not technically employ any bus drivers. For the same reason, Princess Cruises also utilizes Royal Hyway Tours. (The other cruise lines typically utilize Premier Alaska Tours for bus operations, the same company employed by Alaska Tour & Travel for its "Park Connection" scheduled motor coach service, and the same company that operates the Wilderness Express railcars.)

[oaktreerb]

8 minutes ago, GTJ said:

 

 

As a point of interest, note that Holland America Line utilizes Royal Hyway Tours (s/b/a HAP Alaska) to provide the bus service in Alaska, both companies being commonly owned by Carnival Corporation. Holland America Line, itself, does not technically employ any bus drivers. For the same reason, Princess Cruises also utilizes Royal Hyway Tours. (The other cruise lines typically utilize Premier Alaska Tours for bus operations, the same company employed by Alaska Tour & Travel for its "Park Connection" scheduled motor coach service, and the same company that operates the Wilderness Express railcars.)

We also took the Park Connection from Anchorage to Denali.  No commentary along the way.  I realize this is an entirely different situation as it is a daily point A to B type service.

[AKStafford]

23 hours ago, GTJ said:

If the carriers established garages in Seward and Whittier, then they could shave off 3 to 6 hours of driving time daily and live within the regulations applicable in the rest of the United States. I assume they have garages or lodging facilities in Denali or Healy for drivers

There's very limited lodging available in Seward and Whittier, so they don't base drivers there. When I drove (again, about 20 years ago) we had a mobile home at the McKinley Chalet that we'd overnight in when doing Denali runs, unless it was a turn and burn. But no bus yard or maintenance shop. Infrastructure cost money and everyone wants their cheap cruise...

[GTJ]

21 hours ago, AKStafford said:

There's very limited lodging available in Seward and Whittier, so they don't base drivers there.

Deadheading three hours, between Anchorage and Seward, both at the start and the end of each run, must be not only a safety risk but expensive as well. HAP Alaska provides lodging in Healy, and I would think that they could do so, as well, in Seward. The Alaska Railroad bases its Grandview charter train at Seward (it deadheads between Seward and Whittier only on HAP cruise vessel days), so it must have some mechanism by which it deals with lodging in Seward.

[kickboxrca]

We were on a cruise tour last summer with HAL.  The bus trips ALWAYS took so much longer than we think they should have taken - it was a leisurely pace for sure - stopping for lunch, getting souvenirs, stretching our legs, seeing the sights ... we were never in a rush. That said, they also tried to make the arrival times work with whatever was happening next - when we'd be able to check into our hotels, or pick up the next excursion.