New rules for wheelchair users

[Presto2]

20 minutes ago, sandancer said:

Well being truthful didn’t help me. I rang our existing insurer to inform them of the tests (as requested on the policy) and they immediately cancelled my other half off the new quote they had just given me. So you are right. Honesty isn’t always the best policy. However, I’m not a risk taker and I need to be sure everything is in place. I only have a few days until final payment and I don’t see me having the answers I need by then. Hence my question about resale. 

I think you are being very wise. I know it is very disappointing to cancel a holiday (we've just had to miss one and probably cancel another) but am wondering if it would be worth not paying the final payment and moving to another cruise if you can. Or lose the deposit and see if you can rebook something as soon as you have the information and cover you need. Paying up and then not being able to sell would cost more. Just a thought. Hope you get it all sorted.

P.S. Re insurance - don't get me started. A business that will do anything not to pay out ....

[nosapphire]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

 

 

It is a risky gamble because Saga are ignoring the knowledge they have that the passenger does have a mobility issue, because if the passenger doesn't have a mobility issue then why have they got a mobility aid!

 

Now that doesn't mean that every passenger with a mobility aid will need an evac chair, but it would be a damn sensible idea for Saga to specifically ask each of those passengers that question and not pass the responsibility over to them to fill in a mobility form if they fancy it to determine if they need an evac chair

 

A sensible risk assessment uses all the knowledge you have, and doesn't completely rely on a separate declaration.

 

Whereas the Saga process (as it has been described) seems very much like they really don't want to hear the truth of the situation (could they deal with all the passengers if the passengers actually needing an evac chair told the truth?) so have designed a process with built in deniability of responsibility when things go wrong.

 

That may be the case, but seems unlikely based on my experience with Saga.

You cannot book a stored scooter/wheelchair on line, you have to telephone and talk to an agent, and based on a different recent experience the agent will ask a lot of questions about mobility requirements.

Last year I cancelled an excursion, which happened to be a walking tour. I booked it on line, but you have to telephone to cancel - cannot do it on line.

The telephone agent did not quite ask "why are you cancelling?" - but spent a lot of time asking questions about requirements on board, whether any assistance was now needed, warning that if I turned up with undeclared mobility problems I might be refused boarding.

Evidently, the fact that my booking clearly showed "you have declined any assistance" and the fact that I was cancelling a walking tour triggered alarm bells - so pretty sure that somebody wanting to reserve a below deck space for a scooter would be asked even more questions.

All cruise lines will have the problem of passengers who do not admit needing assistance, but the cruise lines that insist on telephone calls for anything that is not a bog-standard booking go a long way to avoiding said problems.

Passengers do have to take some responsibility for themselves somewhere along the line...

[sandancer]

34 minutes ago, Presto2 said:

I think you are being very wise. I know it is very disappointing to cancel a holiday (we've just had to miss one and probably cancel another) but am wondering if it would be worth not paying the final payment and moving to another cruise if you can. Or lose the deposit and see if you can rebook something as soon as you have the information and cover you need. Paying up and then not being able to sell would cost more. Just a thought. Hope you get it all sorted.

P.S. Re insurance - don't get me started. A business that will do anything not to pay out ....

We’ve considered both options but the stumbling block is the evac chair. If we give up the one we’ve been allocated we may not be able to find another cruise (going by the posts on here) with one available. The cruise in question has gone down in price so rebooking and losing the deposit would not be a problem if we didn’t need a wheelchair. We don’t have an accessible cabin. 

[Selbourne]

54 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

Unless things have changed, you can waitlist for an accessible cabin but only if you have a booking. So book a standard balcony and can waitlist for an accessible balcony.

 

Doesn’t work for anyone who can only travel in an accessible cabin.

Your last sentence explains why that policy is about as useful as a chocolate fire guard!

[terrierjohn]

4 hours ago, Selbourne said:

Sorry to hear this. I am also awaiting test results and am getting increasingly annoyed by the delay. I had the tests a month ago, was told that the Dr reviewed the results within 24 hours and I would receive a letter. How long does it take to send a letter? 😡

 

In your situation, given that your insurance runs out this week anyway and the existing insurer won’t cover you, I would think that your best bet is to attempt to find a new insurer before your balance due date. Most quotes can be obtained online today, but even if you have to speak to a person to explain the tests you could have all this resolved by tomorrow.

 

I enquired about four different P&O cruises a few days ago and none had an evacuation chair available so they were all non-starters, so you are right to be concerned about this. I haven’t used the FB resale site myself but a friend tried it and was unable to get a buyer, so that’s a very big risk.

 

Of course, if the outstanding test results are causing a problem, a very high risk approach (which I am not recommending but doubtless others might consider) would be not to mention them, especially if it’s for a condition that is extremely unlikely to result in a medical emergency on the cruise. This would get you on the cruise, but obviously runs the risk that if the issue that you are awaiting results for causes an emergency, you are uncovered and, depending on what it is and how it manifests, could land you with an eye watering bill as you’d be uncovered. 

. 

As regards not declaring a medical condition I would worry that your insurer would decline any claim you had, even if it was for one you had declared.

 

[david63]

4 hours ago, molecrochip said:

Ask yourself, why is P&O the only brand where you can’t book an accessible cabin online.

And my answer is the same one that I have mentioned several times - a decision has been made within P&O, and/or Carnival, to reduce (or even the possibly to eventually eliminate) the mobility challenenged as they do not fit the passenger demographic that the product is being aimed at.

[david63]

2 hours ago, sandancer said:

We’ve considered both options but the stumbling block is the evac chair. If we give up the one we’ve been allocated we may not be able to find another cruise (going by the posts on here) with one available. The cruise in question has gone down in price so rebooking and losing the deposit would not be a problem if we didn’t need a wheelchair. We don’t have an accessible cabin. 

Hard as it is if I was in that situation then the only option I would consider would be cancelling the cruise with the possible loss of deposit - there is not an unrealistic argument that says that the current insurace policy will cover that, but that is a discussion for another day.

[terrierjohn]

3 minutes ago, david63 said:

And my answer is the same one that I have mentioned several times - a decision has been made within P&O, and/or Carnival, to reduce (or even the possibly to eventually eliminate) the mobility challenenged as they do not fit the passenger demographic that the product is being aimed at.

I guess the management of most tourist hotels or cruise lines, would prefer not to have to consider the needs of disabled customers. But I doubt any of them would deliberately put in place dubious rules aimed solely at reducing the number of disabled guests.

[david63]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

But I doubt any of them would deliberately put in place dubious rules aimed solely at reducing the number of disabled guests.

But that is exactly what P&O are doing.

 

The way I understand it is that an accessible cabin = evac chair. Each evac chair requires at least two trained operatives. Either one of those requirements can be used to manipulate the number of disabled guests on any ship and all within the law.

[Selbourne]

29 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

As regards not declaring a medical condition I would worry that your insurer would decline any claim you had, even if it was for one you had declared.

 

I wasn’t advocating it John but, in reality, how would they know if the issue that causes you to claim has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to an entirely different issue that you may (or may not) have that you are awaiting test results for?

[david63]

3 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

I wasn’t advocating it John but, in reality, how would they know if the issue that causes you to claim has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to an entirely different issue that you may (or may not) have that you are awaiting test results for?

But remember that if you need to make a medical claim that the insurers can, and do, ask for your medical records and generally speaking we, as patients, don't have full access to everything that they contain.

[TigerB]

On 9/20/2024 at 7:24 PM, Megabear2 said:

We are now able to see quite clearly on the deck plans the cabins available for use by those who have powered devices.  There are however other cabins with the disability wheelchair symbol which do not have the power symbol and assumedly those using manual wheelchairs are still able to book these or are they not able to do this if they use their wheelchair fulltime?  It seems very odd that TigerB was told he could keep his now cancelled cruise if his good lady could use another form of non motorised wheelchair if it is simply a way to reduce the number of passengers with disability requirements - the needs of the person would be identical in an emergency.

 

Looking at it in light of this the new policy still seems more aimed at reducing the number of electronic mobility aids rather than mobility challenged passengers in light of the above.

 

 

@Megabear2, this is why I have such a problem with the reason for the policy change being because they don't have sufficient trained staff to offer 2:1 assistance for those guests that need an evacuation chair, albeit I have yet to read anything put out by P&O or Carnival that specifically states the reason for the change in policy.

 

Consider this, using Iona as an example...

There are 35 fully accessible cabin, which includes one suite.

There a 20 partially accessible cabins.

So, whether it be six weeks ago, when power chairs were allowed in the partially accessible cabins, or today, when only manual chairs are allowed in those cabins, if all 55 cabins are occupied by a full-time wheelchair user, that is 55 evacuation chairs and 110 trained staff required.

They have now added 12 suites where a power chair or mobility scooter is allowed. So now, there is a potential requirement of 67 evacuation chairs and 134 trained staff.

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, Selbourne said:

I wasn’t advocating it John but, in reality, how would they know if the issue that causes you to claim has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to an entirely different issue that you may (or may not) have that you are awaiting test results for?

Because the claim company would require full access to your medical records to accept liability for any claim of any medical nature. Your records will show you have been referred for a test and this automatically would null and void any medical claim on the basis of failure to declare a possible medical issue.

 

As recent as this week there is a news story of AXA refusing to pay a lady's claim for a completely unrelated illness as she did not declare a UTI she'd forgotten about.  Only pressure from a newspaper made them reconsider and pay out.

 

Over 85% of refused travel insurance claims are as a result of non disclosure.

 

 

[Selbourne]

2 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Because the claim company would require full access to your medical records to accept liability for any claim of any medical nature. Your records will show you have been referred for a test and this automatically would null and void any medical claim on the basis of failure to declare a possible medical issue.

 

As recent as this week there is a news story of AXA refusing to pay a lady's claim for a completely unrelated illness as she did not declare a UTI she'd forgotten about.  Only pressure from a newspaper made them reconsider and pay out.

 

Over 85% of refused travel insurance claims are as a result of non disclosure.

 

 

Interesting. Well hopefully the person who has taken 6 weeks and counting to send out my results letter (who may well be working from home) might find time between walking the dog, taking the kids to and from school and mowing the lawn to send my letter out before our policy falls due for renewal next month 🤔

[TigerB]

On 9/19/2024 at 4:36 PM, terrierjohn said:

Deck 15 has at least 4 acc balcony cabins, plus at least 2 inside ones. Unless these are only the motorised ones, and the inside ones and the balcony ones with the poles are classed as not suitable for motorised scooters or wheelchairs.

 

Using deck 15 on Iona as an example...

 

There are eight fully accessible balcony cabins. We've stayed in 15306 before, and it has a pole. It still has the wheelchair symbol and, along with the other seven, now has the power symbol.

There are four partially accessible cabins, and we've stayed in two of them with a power chair and without issues. All four still have the wheelchair symbol but, of course, do not have the power symbol.

[terrierjohn]

16 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

I wasn’t advocating it John but, in reality, how would they know if the issue that causes you to claim has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to an entirely different issue that you may (or may not) have that you are awaiting test results for?

I recently discussed travel insurance with my GP, and he said that insurers regularly request full medical history when there is a claim, and  if they find undisclosed treatments they often refuse the entire claim.

[cruising.mark.uk]

18 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

Interesting. Well hopefully the person who has taken 6 weeks and counting to send out my results letter (who may well be working from home) might find time between walking the dog, taking the kids to and from school and mowing the lawn to send my letter out before our policy falls due for renewal next month 🤔

This may not apply to you, but have you looked for your results on the NHS App?

I had some tests about 6 months ago and chased my surgery two weeks later when I had not received the results.  Turns out they were uploaded to the NHS App the day after the tests were conducted.  I had not encountered that before and neither the surgery nor the hospital which conducted the tests told me that I should go the App for the results and would not receive any other notification.

[sandancer]

We have made 2 claims this year for medical reasons. One for an accidental injury and the other for a flare up of a disclosed medical condition. On neither occasion were medical records requested. I am confident of this because both claims were paid within 5 days. As Selbourne has pointed out, anything going through the system takes weeks. 

[mrsgoggins]

8 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I recently discussed travel insurance with my GP, and he said that insurers regularly request full medical history when there is a claim, and  if they find undisclosed treatments they often refuse the entire claim.

I had to make a claim when, some years ago, my doctor said I was unfit to fly the next day due to a bad chest infection. The insurers did contact my GP and then queried an undisclosed DVT.  I’d never had DVT but it was on my record erroneously!  I disclose everything, no matter how small.

[Megabear2]

5 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I recently discussed travel insurance with my GP, and he said that insurers regularly request full medical history when there is a claim, and  if they find undisclosed treatments they often refuse the entire claim.

Not only do they request it they will often not accept any liability until they have seen it.  This therefore requires individuals to have access to funds up front in the event the insurer insists on seeing the records before accepting a claim.  

 

This is one of the reasons I always suggest that when buying your insurance you have access to your medical records on the NHS or Systmonline so you can see exactly what illneses, tests, results have been recorded by your medical practitioner.

 

It needs to be remembered that the period insurers are interested in varies by company.  Staysure for instance ask for 5 years to be taken into consideration whereas M&S and UK Insurance are only interested in two years.

 

However a very large number of insurers ask a lifetime question on cholesterol tests, ie have cholesterol levels EVER been raised.  Obviously that is very generic, your levels may have been raised 20 years ago and be perfectly normal in recent times.  If your insurer asked the ever question you would be required to answer yes to meet the full disclosure rules.

 

This is a genuinely difficult question and a very large number fall foul of rules on things like cholesterol or arthritis. Like it or not they form our medical history and deep down in our records they live.

 

I once has a misdiagnosis of asthma which i declared three years of to my insurer. When the misdiagnosis was acknowledged I asked for it to corrected on my records so I no longer needed to declare it.  My records acknowledged the mistake but still  show asthma resolved as once recorded nothing can actually be removed.

[sandancer]

35 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Because the claim company would require full access to your medical records to accept liability for any claim of any medical nature. Your records will show you have been referred for a test and this automatically would null and void any medical claim on the basis of failure to declare a possible medical issue.

 

As recent as this week there is a news story of AXA refusing to pay a lady's claim for a completely unrelated illness as she did not declare a UTI she'd forgotten about.  Only pressure from a newspaper made them reconsider and pay out.

 

Over 85% of refused travel insurance claims are as a result of non disclosure.

 

 

I called our existing insurer to tell them about the test and they immediately cancelled the renewal quote. They will offer cover for me but not my DH. Between a rock and a hard place. If I tell them they won’t offer cover and if I don’t tell them they refuse to pay a claim. Insurance companies are now getting high up on my list of most seriously disliked organizations. 

[Megabear2]

20 minutes ago, sandancer said:

We have made 2 claims this year for medical reasons. One for an accidental injury and the other for a flare up of a disclosed medical condition. On neither occasion were medical records requested. I am confident of this because both claims were paid within 5 days. As Selbourne has pointed out, anything going through the system takes weeks. 

Presumably as something like an accident is not reliant on any other illness being involved and the second incident being an already disclosed illness.  In most cases if this was not the case the claims company would request sight of the records particularly if the claim could be a substantial one such as a hospitalization.  The nature of the claim also impacts, ie a cancellation claim is considered responsible as you would be reducing the insurers risk - rather a few hundred pounds per person than thousands if the insured becomes unwell while abroad or is hospitalised.

Edited 4 hours ago by Megabear2

[Selbourne]

21 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

This may not apply to you, but have you looked for your results on the NHS App?

I had some tests about 6 months ago and chased my surgery two weeks later when I had not received the results.  Turns out they were uploaded to the NHS App the day after the tests were conducted.  I had not encountered that before and neither the surgery nor the hospital which conducted the tests told me that I should go the App for the results and would not receive any other notification.

I’ve been checking it daily but nothing so far. I think I’m going to make a formal complaint about it, as I don’t think there’s any excuse for leaving people worrying about whether or not they have an issue for so long. 

[Megabear2]

11 minutes ago, sandancer said:

I called our existing insurer to tell them about the test and they immediately cancelled the renewal quote. They will offer cover for me but not my DH. Between a rock and a hard place. If I tell them they won’t offer cover and if I don’t tell them they refuse to pay a claim. Insurance companies are now getting high up on my list of most seriously disliked organizations. 

I appreciate your frustration.  This is the problem with cruise companies selling cruises more than 12 months in advance and it is going to make the disability cabin situation ever more difficult.

 

The truth is that absolutely none of us can say we will be insurable 18, 24 or 36 months in advance, we simply do not know what life holds in store for us medically.

 

I've just has this exact conversation with P&O and Cunard while booking 2025 and 2026 cruises.  They didn't appreciate my saying my crystal ball wasn't working that far in advance!

[david63]

@Selbourne have you tried contacting the consultant's secretary? They seem to be the only ones that know what is going on and can get things moving when there is a hold up.