Technical Fire Discussion

[alibail]

 

A modified garden irrigation system would do the job, it wouldn't take much to fit and would not be obvious to the eye, so it would be asthetically acceptable. Being a curtain system, it would not be affected by wind, like a standard sprinkler system would, it would just pour water down the metalwork/glass from above on the architrave.

 

Interesting idea, I may be wrong but if an intense fire was buring I wouldnt think it would stop it progressing inside completley, but probably slow it down.

 

Also to be effective would the entire outside length of the ship not need to be 'active'?? this would be a massive drain on the ships limited water resources, theres only so much presure they can pump through the system. - Same as normal sprinklers fail to work once the majority of the heads are active.

 

Not an expert, just an idea though.

[emerald777]

I'm no expert either, but I wouldn't think that water would be a problem while sitting it the middle of the ocean...... It wouldn't have to be fresh water, would it? I would think salt water would work just as well and I imagine they already have a pumping system in place?

[katisdale]

I am no expert but where does all the water - fresh or salt - go as they spray it on the fire. If it stays on the ship does that not cause problems like sinking? If there is only so much water that can safely be used can it be captured somehow and used again?

[hardastarboard]

The water from the fire fighting can cause massive problems with stability, as it causes 'free surface effect'. This is what sunk the Herald of Free Enterprise and the Egyptian ferry a few months back. It can only be a small 'film' of water on a deck, but if the ship rolls then it all builds up causing the ship to roll over and capsize. The best way of displaying it is to fill a tray up with a small amount of water - it is fine when it is level, but tilt it over and I'm sure you get the picture. The way the ships try to get rid of this is to have scuppers which get rid of the water as soon as they can by running overboard, but if these are blocked then you have a problem... Incidentally the water in the pressurized fire / sprinkler main is fresh water, to protect the fittings from corrosion. When it is use, then fresh water is replaced with sea water.

I think overall it will be a very difficult area to cover, mainly due to the elements involved, for example the pipes would be subject to freezing temperatures one day, then hot the next - take a trip from NYC to the Caribbean in the January, but good luck to them all the same.

 

Hardastarboard:)

[rjg41]

I'll take bets that a major solution to this problem will be replacing much of the balcony material with self extinguishing materials. The may be other actions but that will be one of them. For those don't know what these materials are is that they will only burn when presented with a hot enough flame; remove the flame and they will go out(self-extinguish). They cannot support a flame.

[Goldryder]

Don't forget, that when the crew have to fight fires on a ship in the middle of the sea somewhere, they use pumped seawater alot of the time for the hoses and compressed gas in the sprinklers that literally starves the fire of oxygen. If at all possible they use the saltwater from their ballast tanks, which is then replenished from the sea. All ships have them, they work with the stabilisers to give you that nice smooth ride in choppy seas.

[Joedog]

This may be different for cruise liners but I doubt it is too different.

 

US Navy ships have a "Firemain" which is a sea water piping system that is fed by a number of firepumps to feed the various fire hoses and sprinkler systems.

 

There is no need, and it makes no sense to pump water from ballast tanks to fight fires and then refill the tanks. The last thing you want to do when adding weight (fire fighting water) above is to remove weight below.

 

The beauty of the firemain system is that you never run out of water and if pressure drops because too many nozzles are in use you can just bring online another firepump.

 

The only compressed gas systems that I know of are HALON systems for engineering spaces , CO2 systems for some flammable storerooms and electical equipment rooms & certain chemical systems for the galley grills & deep fat fryers. General areas of the ship are not protected by any kind of compressed gas system. These systems are limited in that they are a "single use system" (sometimes there is a second shot systen) that cannot be easily refilled. If the elements that came together to cause the fire (heat, fuel, oxygen) are not changed before the gas dissipates the fire will re-flash.

 

As far as adding a sprinkler system goes, it would be very easy to just run a piping system up in the overhead outside the ship with a nozzle for each of the balconies as there is no false overhead or cabin to cabin separation there to deal with. The only tricky part of the alteration would be tying it in to the existing sprinkler system. This type of alteration could be done fairly quickly. Fire fighting (sprinkler) water outside the ship is not a stability concern as it just runs off back into the ocean.

[Capt_BJ]

When the rules change (if they change), will the ships change? "Of course" you say, "they must"

 

Welllll - not so fast. When the newer SOLAS regs came into effect not so long ago, some lines decided to ignore the changes. They were/are not internationally manditory. Remember that SOLAS is simply a recommendation. Enforcment or requirement becomes a responsibility of countries.

 

For example - a certain premium line choose not to modify their ships by installing sprinklers in pas' cabins and common spaces when the time came. And, they simply choose to have their vessels operate out of non US ports. Several lesser lines do the same, but it is not exclusive to the low cost folks....some big boys do this too. While a requirement to load pas in the US - this rule does not exist everywhere.

 

My guess - and it is just that - a guess - is that as ships are refitted you will see materials on the balc' change to some degree, but I doubt you will see major refits...nor laws and regs that require it. The lobby groups are gonna fight hard to avoid that cost. There will be stronger enforcement on board for fire safety issues, and a whole new scenerio for the weekly fire drills to consider. New ships? Well I'm guessing some naval architects are working on this right now....

[DonLou]

...that as ships are refitted you will see materials on the balc' change to some degree, but I doubt you will see major refits...

 

My thoughts were that they might consider installing some "fire break" balconies. That is, ones that are more fire resistant than the others. Maybe they'll have glass partitions, a little different composition in the flooring, less or no polycarbonate panels. They could make every fifth balcony one of these "fire breaks". Of course, you'd sacrifice four balconies in a fire but at least you'll have a "natural" stopper to a balcony fire.

[hardastarboard]

Joedog, I totally agree with your statements regarding sprinkler systems, they are the same as used in the US Navy. The only difference is that the system is kept pressurised with fresh water to stop corrosion, and when it is activated, it is refilled with sea water. On another note, when I mentioned stability it was with reference to what it can do inside rather than outside, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it, but I thought it may have been some interest to someone.

As an industry worker, I would say that the lines would make some changes, but nothing as dramatic as we may like to see. Balcony fires are few and far between, and the lines won't see one fire as justification for sprinklers etc etc. It may sound harsh seeing as one person has lost their life, but thats the way shipping lines work.

[garycarla]

Not just the shipping lines make decisions about what preventative measures to take, but all industries. There is a thing called acceptable risk.

 

For example, every two minutes in this country a child is injured or killed in a car crash. Hundreds of thousands die from smoking. Fire take place in homes and buildings daily killing people. Lots of this could be prevented if you wanted to spend enough money, but who has the $$$$?

 

How many balcony fires have actually occured that would have been prevented if these changes took place?

 

Some difficult decisions to be made.

 

And, if they spend the Million$$, guess who will pay for it in higher cruise prices?

 

Yea, I know:

Better Safe Than Sorry

It's a Small Price To Pay

What's a life worth?

 

etc etc

[Old Sea Legs]

It appears that a sprinkler system is being installed on the balconies now under repair. You may see close-up shots of a couple balconies among the photos displayed under the May 10 column by going to the link: http://www.essorg.de/sp

[emerald777]

GreaT PICS! Thanks for posting!

[Old Sea Legs]

Glad you enjoyed the pictures. They were taken by Frank Gross who lives a few miles from Bremerhaven. Please note the photo credit at the bottom of the page: "Images by Frank Grosse, fgrosse@gmail.com"

[alwalaska]

Can anyone tell from the wonderful pictures that were posted if there has been any change in the design of the dividers between the balconies?

 

Just curious. I know it would be really hard to see material changes in pictures, but design - maybe not.

[Old Sea Legs]

On the thread, "Star has arrived!!," the general consensus regarding the partitions was that we had difficulty determining much about them. The problem is not just the distance from the camera to the balcony but the fact that the viewing angle is "edge-on" rather than "broadside." I guess we'll have to get a report from the people who are booked on Monday's cruise. Several individuals who have been keeping an eye on Frank Grosse's pictures have indicated that they are booked on the cruise so perhaps there will be something posted next week on the "Star has arrived!!" thread.

[Princess Chatterer]

Thanks for the picture link. Princess may be robbing the Emerald Princess for repair parts which might include the use of Emerald's plastic dividers. If so then the the Emerald might be the ship to first see a change in divider material.

 

As I think about Princess seeking to modify the ships for increased fire safety I also think about the modification cost which will be passed onto future passengers. I hope Princess is making cost effective but prudent decisions.

[judyzoo]

What do they do to eliminate the remaining smell of smoke in the ship?

[alibail]

What do they do to eliminate the remaining smell of smoke in the ship?

 

Febreeze :)

[judynorth]

Febreeze :)

 

Gee. It must have taken a lot of the stuff?:rolleyes:

[Old Sea Legs]

By this time you have probably heard that Star departed for Copenhagen as scheduled at about 5 AM EDT. You may view Frank Grosse's photos of her departure at http://www.essorg.de/sp . The pictures are those listed under today's date, May 13.

 

On the thread, "Star has arrived!!," Marlinmike posted the quote below from CRUISE NEWS DAILY:

 

"Princess told CND today that in addition the repair work from the fire, Lloyd also installed a drencher and fire detection system on the ship's balconies as part of the fire safety measures they said earlier they were implementing. The plastic furniture on the balconies has also been replaced with metal, and many of the balcony dividers have also been replaced with noncombustible ones. (The rest will be replaced shortly.)

The same upgrades are now being scheduled for the rest of the ships in the fleet, and those will be completed during the next six months while the ships are in service."

[Host Karen]

Just wanted to add my appreciation for the thoughtful and thought-provoking discussion on this thread. I learned quite a bit -- including not to leave clothes or towels out to dry on our balcony when we are not in the cabin.

 

Glad to see the Star is back in service. Safe and happy cruising to all who sail her.

[Casshew]

As I think about Princess seeking to modify the ships for increased fire safety I also think about the modification cost which will be passed onto future passengers. I hope Princess is making cost effective but prudent decisions.

 

They're charging for coffee now :cool:

[ccrain]

Info from the Island last week:

 

1 - They are double checking ALL in-cabin sprinkler functionality.

 

2 - The fire watch will be permanent until the ships are retrofitted with balcony sprinklers and fire detection systems.

 

3 - Balcony sprinklers and detection systems are being installed on all ships during in-port days by the on-board engineering and maintenance staff. Affected cabins are rumored to be given a free excursion since access to the cabin will be required during the day.

[negc]

While it is good to know that the balcony dividers are being replaced by ones which are not made of flammable materials, it is disconcerting that they didn't consider flammability when the original dividers were ordered and installed. On the Freedom of the Seas in Boston, last week, Richard Fain made a point of noting that the balcony dividers on RCI ships are not made of flammable materials, nor is the decking on the balconies. If necessary, SOLAS regulations should be revised to make it a requirement that non-flammable materials be used on ships' balconies.