Technical Fire Discussion

[Cruisers from WA]

Lastly, in the aircraft world, accidents always happen in threes. I mean ALWAYS. I was an engineer on F-14's, and every time one went in, we always waited for 2 more. Without fail, something happened. So, we have the tour bus, we have the Princess fire. Anyone one know what the third was, or are we still waiting? (yes- sailors and pilots are pretty superstitious)

 

Check out about the British Columbia Ferry sinking at: www.KOMOTV.com

This is where the inside passage cruise ships travel in the spring and summer.

 

I also just heard on the news that a Columbia River Cruise paddle boat (between WA & OR) is stuck on a sand bar and they are afraid to pull it off with a tug, for fear it "might" sink.....passengers are still on board....

[Mrs. Gump]

Interesting read. Thanks to all of you for your knowledge and opinions. Check out the new thread by cjs kids who was a passenger on the star this week. Her account supports the possibility that the fire was not caused solely by a cigarette but perhaps an accellerant was involved.

[DiaDeGuadalupe]

Interesting read. Thanks to all of you for your knowledge and opinions. Check out the new thread by cjs kids who was a passenger on the star this week. Her account supports the possibility that the fire was not caused solely by a cigarette but perhaps an accellerant was involved.

 

I read this one and then found one by another Star passenger not long after. That thread is by elin, and it's a bit different.

 

After reading both threads, I still think it's better to wait for the official cause of the fire. cjs kids had her cabin destroyed, and I don't know if elin's was one that got any sort of damage. It seems that they each got different viewpoints as to what caused the fire from different sources.

 

BTW, this is a really good thread!

[TinAngel]

Great thread.

 

I really wanted to post to other areas but: I Did not.

 

All passengers exposed to smoke should see a physician. I will also add in just call your local Fire Department and say you inhaled smoke from a fire and they will know a physician for you to see. Simple.

 

As to the psychological trauma: "PTSD", we all are here for you. Americans's have PTSD from just watching what happened on September 11th.

 

I will just post any info I get from such as NTSB or the Brit's. Doubt I will get much but I have BBC contacts. (British TV friends I still work with). Suspect BBC and such may have news we do not. Will post the URL's for you. This ship is a Bermuda registered Commonwealth vessel. The ship is US owned but flies a Bermuda Islands flag and I earlier reported that the UK was the lead investigator, and they say they are such.

 

Who knows/

 

Doc

[jenischmeni]

John? I have a question to ask of you. Could you email me at jenischmeni@gmail.com?

[TVMet]

The NTSB will definitely be involved, and their findings do become public knowledge eventually. However, thier recommendations are just that - recommendations - well in the air arena anyways. The FAA and the NTSB are contantly at odds with each other.

 

One thing that is ALWAYS the case with an air incident - there is NEVER one cause - it is always a chain of events that falls into place to lead to the incident. Sometimes it is painful to read a mishap report and learn what some people did - but at the time seemed perfectly OK. So even if it does turn out to be a cigarette that started it, there were other things going on.

 

)

 

I've talked to NTSB investigators before and they always say, the cause of an accident almost never turns out to be what you thought it was originally. This fire sounds very complicated and the final report will be interesting. I've read the report on the Ectasy fire on the NTSB web page and it was an amazing event of bad luck. One thing after another went wrong. Go back and read the report of the Ectasy fire, very interesting and well done by the NTSB.

[mii]

I have not been on the Princess forum before and have so much enjoyed this thread - all the information, calm speculation, expert input and reasoning.

 

Then I read another thread about the April 2 Star cruise being canceled and somebody who admits to being a TA named cabledon actually wrote that another poster was a liar! Wow!

 

Can I stay here with y'all where it's safe?!!! :eek:

 

Saga Ruby you are most welcomed on this board. Unfortunately when something like this happens strange things are said in the heat of emotion and trust me not all Princess posters are like that. I am now being very selective on what threads I am reading. This one is the best.

 

Marilyn

[Host Anne]

Good morning, everyone! What an interesting thread! Thanks to everyone for their enlightening participation. Your thoughtful contributions is what Cruise Critic is all about. While I host the Celebrity board here on Cruise Critic, we cruise and visit the Princess board often. After I found this thread last night (around midnight) I had to stay up and read it all. It's like a good book! Looking forward to hearing about more details as they become available.

 

Thanks again for your participation here on the boards.

[Saga Ruby]

There is a post somewhere out there amongst the brambles of the Star fire posts in which a man who works in shipbuilding gives a step-by-step plan to keep the Star moving while damage from the fire is cleared. It all seems quite logical to me. I can't find his post so If y'all can find him, tell him to come over here to this thread - we need his expertise.

 

Fear comes from ignorance. The posters here have taught me so much that I feel well-armed with excellent information in the possibility of worst- case scenario on one of my cruises. I thank you for your time and input. Can't wait to hear what y'all think when the professional reports come out.

 

Editorial comment - Once upon a time, I was on a Greek cruise ship in the Adriatic. While strolling along the Promenade Deck, I realized that there were 22 coats of paint on the lifeboat davits and, in case of emergency, nobody was going anywhere.

 

Ever since then, I've been much more conscious of muster stations and also quietly watch the professionalism of the ship's sailing staff - do they take their drills seriously, etc.

 

Cmon, help me out. Go find that shipbuilder guy!

 

Thanks, everybody.

[cruise182]

What a shame for all parties involved. One question, How come it takes me 1/2 a book of matches, 3 Sunday papers, pounds of dried twigs, and seasoned logs to get a fire to burn in my fireplace?

[Dorinda]

Great discussion.

 

Just want to add a picture dh took when we were on the Star last year. In case you can't make it out there is a pack of cigarettes, a lighter, and many butts that have been extinguished on a damp paper napkin. He took the picture because the smoke and smell was constantly present from the balcony directly below us.

 

Now I wish I had reported this.

[RHefley228]

I've read the report on the Ectasy fire on the NTSB web page and it was an amazing event of bad luck. One thing after another went wrong.

 

It's the old Murphy's Law thing I learned in the army: "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong, and at the worst possible time." And Murphy, of course, was an optimist.

 

There is an unconfirmed report on page 24A of today's Miami Herald that a crew member told a passenger the fire was started by a teenager angry with his father. This may turn out to be mere speculation on the crew members part, of course.

 

Here's a question for those experienced in fire fighting: Would extending the sprinkler system to the balconies help, or would the wind/ship's speed make them ineffective?

[bdjam]

Hey folks – just wanted to chime in once again and say thanks for this great thread. Considering the tone on some of the other threads that have been recently started, this one is refreshing. Looking forward to more involved discussions as we get more information.

[Larry502]

Extending the sprinkler to the balconies would not be an option due to the issue with freezing temperatures. While some ships stay in warm waters, some do not. If a sprinkler pipe was to freeze, it would then burst and cause s flood. You could have a total dry system but then you have a whole bunch of other issues.

[spongerob]

Maybe a more workable solution would be heat sensors mounted above the balconies, just like those inside the cabin. At least there would be a signal that there was a problem.

[Larry502]

The simplest solution is to remove all the fire load. If there is nothing to burn then you will not have a fire. You have a flame test performed on anything that is used on the balcony. If it will support a flame then you do not use it. When I was on Princess ships I always wondered about the blue mats that they had on the floor. From my point of view I think that the mats were a poor choice from a fire aspect. You know people are going to be smoking on the balcony so why put a material that would burn if a flame came in contact with it on the floor?

[DeepWaterMariner]

Regarding the post that wondered why the bridge wasn't monitoring the video carmeras which show the outside of the ship:

 

I took a rare, these days, bridge tour last month on a ship which is smaller and a few years older than the Star. The bridge was quite technologically advanced. One of the stations on the bridge indeed monitored video cameras throughout the ship, but there were far more cameras than there were monitors to watch. Any camera could be displayed but during my tour, which was a sea day, what was on the monitors were the galley, the trash compactor room, and other internal areas of the ship. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the exterior cameras are probably monitored while in port when the security risk is greatest from an external source. Normally the biggest risk at sea would normally be fire from inside the ship...monitoring areas like the galley make sense when at sea since it is an obvious area of fire danger. If the investigation shows that the fire started on a balcony then perhaps this proceedure might change.

[NormanW]

Extending the sprinkler to the balconies would not be an option due to the issue with freezing temperatures. While some ships stay in warm waters, some do not. If a sprinkler pipe was to freeze, it would then burst and cause s flood. You could have a total dry system but then you have a whole bunch of other issues.

 

In more complex systems the drypipe loops would run in the areas subject to freezing temperatures only.

 

Couple of other things:

 

Flame (fire) detectors have been brought up and perhaps after this event shall be installed in areas where rapid detction of open flames could prevent even a rapidly spreading fire from becoming a serious threat.

 

Self extinguishing materials are great...in accidents. An intentional fire using accelerants with high VOC levels and low SG values will use these materials essentially as a means of intensifying the fire as a host without becoming a part of the fire itself...until the air temp in the space exceeds the flash point. Probably the most predominate accelerant present on a cruise ship that's available to anyone is alcohol. Wonder why those Bacardi 151 bottles have a screened opening? It's a FLAME ARRESTOR! In the maintenance areas there are copious supplies of varnish, solvents, etc. PVC primer and glue in the plumbing departments is highly flammable and the vapors can cause a flash fire and/or explosion. Butane lighters contain a decent amount of highly flammable gas under pressure...enough to keep it liquified. A plastic vessel will melt and release its charge with a resounding flash and expansion capable of damaging windows. A metal vessel will not breach so easily so it in effect becomes a BLEVE device releasing an explosive amount of kinetic energy that can fracture 20 mm fire tempered "sea glass" and rupture the eardrums of those most unfortunate individuals who may be nearby. :eek:

 

With a properly functioning sprinkler system...lines charged to the designed pressure and UNPAINTED and CLEAN heads...either capsule expansion modules or fusible alloy stoppers...the function is to cool down the area keeping the space defensible against the spread of fire. Stowing of materials that ignite explosively or aersol bombs (hairspray, WD40, for example) can overwhelm the system allowing life threatening conditions to prevail and/or significantly reduce the amount of survivable time one has to evacuate. This is why you will see many more sprinkler heads in places where such materials are staged (i.e. paint warehouse).

 

Regarding aluminum or any other metal (Class D) fires...

 

They burn HOT, are hard to extinguish and when they burn in the presence of most plastics used on balconies, afford the rapid release of choking, toxic materials that will quickly fill escape routes from top to bottom. This "aftersmell" lingers on for a LONG time.

 

So why did the fire spread so rapidly? Probably because it was started out with efficiency. Forest fires can start from something as insignifcant as a carelessly tossed pop bottle collimating the sun's rays into a fine dot heating a leaf to the point of combustion. There's plenty of fuel available in that case.

 

On a balcony, this is not the case. Only at proper conclusion of a formal investigation which may take a year or more to close, will we know. This still sounds suspicious to me. Careless cigarette smoking causes smoldering that goes on for sometimes hours creating a thick smoke that sets off smoke detectors long before a raging fire is observed. According to folks that actually experienced this, this was not what happened.

 

Cheers,

 

Norman

[jenischmeni]

Wow, nice post. Very informative. Thanks!

[mii]

I also agree. Thank you Norman. Very informative post as well as all of the posts.

 

Marilyn

[RHefley228]

All the posts since my question about sprinklers have been very informative. Thanks. This is, by far, the most rational thread concerning the fire.

[virginia cruisers]

I reviewed the posting that had the pictures from the Star Princess web

cam during the fire. If the time line on the photos is correct; it looks

like the start of smoke at the top of the ship to the end of the smoke

at the top of the ship was only ten minutes. I do not understand how

the fire could spread and be extinguished so fast. Any ideas if this

10 minute time frame is correct?

[Joe1690]

People keep on mentioning things that can burn on the balcony and the possibility of alcohol on the balcony. My question is if someone spilled alcohol on the carpet several weeks ago and it was not cleaned would it be absorbed into the carpet and act as an accelerant or would it evaporate overtime. If it was absorbed I am sure the carpets aren't cleaned the frequently and if enough alcohol overtime accumulated than this could definately act as an accelerant. Just a guess and from everyones great posts on this thread so far I am sure someone can answer this question. If this is the case then all cruiselines need to find a material that won't absorb the alcohol and thus can be cleaned easily so that a fire doesn't have the necessary fuel to start.

[NormanW]

Please don't weigh this "evidence" too heavily. The "filmstrip" is really of no use as it does not include at the time of grabbing frames important data like wind vector, ship bearing and speed, etc. Just turning the ship around would make the camera view change dramatically, etc.

 

Just FWIW...

 

Cheers,

 

Norman

 

p.s. just noticed this and will add below:

 

People keep on mentioning things that can burn on the balcony and the possibility of alcohol on the balcony. My question is if someone spilled alcohol on the carpet several weeks ago and it was not cleaned would it be absorbed into the carpet and act as an accelerant or would it evaporate overtime. If it was absorbed I am sure the carpets aren't cleaned the frequently and if enough alcohol overtime accumulated than this could definately act as an accelerant. Just a guess and from everyones great posts on this thread so far I am sure someone can answer this question. If this is the case then all cruiselines need to find a material that won't absorb the alcohol and thus can be cleaned easily so that a fire doesn't have the necessary fuel to start.

 

Spilled alcohol (the flammable part in a mixed drink anyway) is volatile (evaporates quickly) and thus is only a hazard for a short time.

[Saga Ruby]

Since we are so lucky to have all this marvelous input about fire at sea, could anyone give us some viable alternatives to shipboard materials that might prevent future tragedies? Are we at the top edge of current technology for fire prevention?

 

What do you think about changing materials used in floor mats, drapes, outdoor furniture, and balcony glass to have a safer result? What is possible in the foreseeable future?

 

Allowing for technology v. profit, what are some alternatives to the existing circumstances?