Technical Fire Discussion

[NormanW]

I've been in places that you would think never need safeguards but they exist.

 

Even if a ship could be made of something that would never burn...let's call this material unobtainium :D

 

Guess what? You can still have a fire and things will still burn. A fireplace is constructed of materials that will not burn but you can have a fire there everyday.

 

I could go on and on...as with any real hazard the best "cure" is prevention. As long as you have things that produce temperatures that can initiate ignition, you have a potential for fire.

 

Even if smoking was abolished on ships you can still have fires. People need to see the threat everyday is REAL...whether at home, on the road, at the office or on a dream vacation. Don't live in fear...and don't live with the "it cannot happen to me" attitude either. Common sense goes a long ways. Use it and be safe. :)

 

Cheers,

 

Norman

[meemeec]

Thank you, NormanW, for sharing your wealth of knowlege.

[Ula]

I would like to say thank you all for this thread and keeping it on topic and understanding.

I am very interested on learning the facts and science behind this fire. Had a porta potty fire at work, melted the whole thing and almost burnt down the barn. Initial report was also a cigarette. Had the potty people and fire department out and was told they are not that flammable.

The cause of fire after telling workers no we are not going to fire you was, one person emptied a gas can in the potty, the next morning another threw a match down the hatch for some reason. He got scared and then ran out and shut the door thinking it would go out. No malice just unfortunate events.

I did tell the kid, he is in his 20's to next time tell me. Accidents happen. And I would have been more upset if the barn burnt down and the gas tanks blew up.

[CruiseWacker23]

Ever since the news of the fire onboard the Star hit the media, I've been watching and listening very closely. I am a career Battalion Chief and a certified fire and explosives investigator with 37 years in the fire service. I am also a HAL mariner so of course everything about this event is of great interest to me.

First of all, as an investigator, the ORIGIN of this fire should be fairly easy to locate. Sometimes, the CAUSE is more difficult and sometimes impossible to determine completely. My only hope is that when the investigation is over, the real truth is made public as to the cause of the fire. Lets face it, careless smoking will be alot easier for the cruise industry to deal with than bad press of a "malotov cocktail" or even an intentionally set fire as revenge, etc.

If in fact the fire started on the verandah as is being published is true, it is highly unlikely that a cigarette started this fire. A single cigarette would need a lot of help to start a fire on a verandah at 3 in the morning while cruising at sea. After looking at the matting that covers the floors on the verandahs on the Princess ships, and being familiar with the other componets such as the lexan balconey fronts, the plastic chairs and aluminum ship members on the upper decks, once a significant fire is started, all bets are off and theres no doubt at all how what resulted can happen. The problem is how did it start? I can tell you that a candle left unattended, especially on the matting, is much more a possibility than a cigarette smoldering. Even more likely is that some form of accelerant is involved (probably NOT alcohol). From what I have experienced on my cruises, there is simply not enough combustibles available on verandahs that a cigarette will ignite. If someone, for whatever reason, lets say brought their mattress on the balcony or even a stuffed chair from the room, then its a possibility. If a single cigarette could cause the flooring to break into flame, this would have happened a long time ago.

If the fire started inside a cabin, extended to the verandah and then spread vertically and horizonally, thats an entirely different set of circumstances.

I'll be watching this one to the end, but for what its worth, I have a very hard time believing the cigarette theory.

[Dolphins]

Cruisewacker 23- I totally agree with your comments. Your experience and expertise are clearly evident. We all await the results of the investigation.

[smeyer418]

and it was enlighting too. Thanks for posting :)

[jenischmeni]

Just voicing my unprofessional opinion - Wouldn't the paint on the outside of the ship sort of act as an accelerant? I have searched and searched for interior pictures of this ship, to no avail. (Surprisingly that as these people get home, they're not publishing/releasing their home-videos/pictures of this event?!)

 

Again, my unprofessional opinion - I have a sneaky suspicion that the interior didn't suffer as much damage as the outside. I think this may look worse than it is. It was a stark-white ship. As the smoke and flames climbed up the painted sides (using the paint), it became discolored. It doesn't even take that much smoke to smudge up white paint. (Look at the corners of a white house that is heated w/ natural gas. They all get those black marks around them and that's not even from smoke.) I think this just burned off the paint and then traveled inside some of the cabins, and those cabins sprinklers set up, basically containing it on the inside. On the outside it sort of ran un-checked.

 

Just my totally uneducated opinion!

[Tater1800]

I hate to speculate on something like this but brainstorming is a good method of solving problems. My wife and I got home from the Star today. She keeps bringing something up that I'll throw to the group.

 

There were rumors of a family dispute before the fire in the area where it started. On the evening prior, the Bruce Willis movie "Hostage" played. In this movie gasoline bombs were used. There were rumors of two young men running in the hall just prior to the fire. Ship security wanted to interview the individual that hit the fire alarm.

 

I have a 22mb TIFF image taken from accross the bay if anyone wants a copy.

[Saga Ruby]

Thanks for your expert input. Most interesting reading. I appreciate the calm and reasoned tone and timber of this thread as opposed to other ones.

 

Dare I ask what a cruise wacker is? Over to you, CW!

[mii]

Cruisewacker, thank you for that very informative review. I knew so little about fire hazards and this thread has sure enlightened me as also many others that I really do appreciate all of the posts on this matter.

 

Marilyn

[NormanW]

 

I have a 22mb TIFF image taken from accross the bay if anyone wants a copy.

 

I would be interested in looking at this. :)

 

Cheers,

 

Norman

[CruiseWacker23]

Thanks for your expert input. Most interesting reading. I appreciate the calm and reasoned tone and timber of this thread as opposed to other ones.

 

Dare I ask what a cruise wacker is? Over to you, CW!

 

Saga....LOL....In the fire service, a "wacker" is someone who simply loves the fire service almost to an extreme. They eat and sleep it 24/7. Though cruising doesn't consume my life, I am trying to figure out a way to retire from the fire dept. and become a fire safety consultant for Holland America !! Payment of course would be permanent residence on the fleet, rotating ships each year.

 

Tater..IF an accelerant was involved in the ignition, that is easy enough to determine also and should come out in the investigation. My only point was that the mass density of combustibles on the verandahs are not favorable for ignition by a cigarette.

As a credit to the Princess Staff, a fire racing across the verandahs of a ship at sea involving several decks presents a multitude of challenges. My hat is off to them for a great stop.

[patwell]

Thank you one and all for this most enlightening thread and for keeping it on target as the OP originally requested.I had almost given up on these boards because of the speculative fingerpointing and agenda based commentary that has been running rampant.

 

This fire has been a sobering reminder that bad things happen to good people when least expected. For people to speculate and pontificate on a cause at this stage is irresponsible.

 

I have read this thread from the beginning and am most grateful for the expertise and intelligent sharing of information each of you have contributed. I have learned a great deal that I didn't know, some of which supports my own theory that something very powerful had to have happened to have caused this much visible damage and it's frightening to speculate what that might have been.

 

I'm from the Cunard board where there has been no discussion on this that I have seen. And after reading many of the threads on other boards, I'm with Saga Ruby ( she and her sister Saga Rose will always be 2 of my favorites by the way)....can I hang out here with you guys too? This is the most sensible discussion I have seen on these boards in a very long time. I apologize that I have no technical expertise to contribute.

 

And thank you to the poster who mentioned his "bug out bag"...boy, that fantastic idea just went to the top of my "take with" list for my Dec QM2 cruise! Please keep up the good ideas and discussion. I'll be lurking in the background with much appreciation. Cheers, Penny

[Tater1800]

I would be interested in looking at this. :)

 

Cheers,

 

Norman

 

Norman,

I cropped it down to about 500k but kept it as a tif. You shoould be able to use PS to enhance the image.

 

The image is posted here for all:

http://home.alltel.net/hyatts1/startiff.tif

[Twinflow]

I have searched for close up photos of the fire. The exterior photo shows one cabin on the Dolpin Deck with major fire damage. You will see little if no damage in the photo to other cabins on that same deck. This cabin is just above the Rapid Response Rescue Boat hanging on the side of the ship. The most intense heat damage to balconies is above this cabin. You will see the balconies melted away above this cabin. The fire may of started here and spread rapidly in a V like pattern. Remember fire drop down from upper floors usually does not cause serious damage. Does anyone else see what I am talking about?

 

Has anyone found close up photos of the damage?

[caribbean dreams]

I check in every now and then to read the great posts on this thread, very interesting reading. Everyone from the Debate threads should come and read the great things people have written.

thanks much and keep it coming.

 

[Larry502]

TWINFLOW

.

I did notice that also. Having been a fire inspector a number of years ago in Nassau County I would be paying attention to that cabin. It sure seen to point to the origin of the fire. The other strange thing is you hear talk about the wind. If there was a strong wind you would think that the fire would spread from the point of origin to the left or right. Not in both directions. I feel very strongly that this fire was not the result of a cigarette. I think in the next couple of days we will have an idea which way the investigation is going.

[futaba951]

Ever since the news of the fire onboard the Star hit the media, I've been watching and listening very closely. I am a career Battalion Chief and a certified fire and explosives investigator with 37 years in the fire service. I am also a HAL mariner so of course everything about this event is of great interest to me.

First of all, as an investigator, the ORIGIN of this fire should be fairly easy to locate. Sometimes, the CAUSE is more difficult and sometimes impossible to determine completely. My only hope is that when the investigation is over, the real truth is made public as to the cause of the fire. Lets face it, careless smoking will be alot easier for the cruise industry to deal with than bad press of a "malotov cocktail" or even an intentionally set fire as revenge, etc.

If in fact the fire started on the verandah as is being published is true, it is highly unlikely that a cigarette started this fire. A single cigarette would need a lot of help to start a fire on a verandah at 3 in the morning while cruising at sea. After looking at the matting that covers the floors on the verandahs on the Princess ships, and being familiar with the other componets such as the lexan balconey fronts, the plastic chairs and aluminum ship members on the upper decks, once a significant fire is started, all bets are off and theres no doubt at all how what resulted can happen. The problem is how did it start? I can tell you that a candle left unattended, especially on the matting, is much more a possibility than a cigarette smoldering. Even more likely is that some form of accelerant is involved (probably NOT alcohol). From what I have experienced on my cruises, there is simply not enough combustibles available on verandahs that a cigarette will ignite. If someone, for whatever reason, lets say brought their mattress on the balcony or even a stuffed chair from the room, then its a possibility. If a single cigarette could cause the flooring to break into flame, this would have happened a long time ago.

If the fire started inside a cabin, extended to the verandah and then spread vertically and horizonally, thats an entirely different set of circumstances.

I'll be watching this one to the end, but for what its worth, I have a very hard time believing the cigarette theory.

 

Maybe someone in bad need of a fix was cooking meth on their balcony at 3 am.

[Saga Ruby]

Larry, welcome to the Technical thread. All of us who are laymen are happy to hear anything you and these other marvelous experts have to say. Eventually we will be able to understand the investigation and its findings, thanks to the time each of you takes to teach us about this incredibly complex event.

 

Penny, can you jump over to the category of "Other Cruises?" You'll see my Saga posts about Ruby and Rose. I loved the Sagafjord and Vistafjord and jumped at the chance to sail on Ruby - Vistafjord redux. Most of the American sailing public doesn't know about Saga Cruises - you'll see I'm a b-i-g- fan. If you have any input, please post it in the thread and I'll catch up with you on the flip side.

[MISSYLOU]

Thank you for such an interesting thread, very informative. Twinflow I too notice and wondered about the cabin on Dolphin deck. It does appear that the fire could have started there and moved up.

 

Regarding speculation on a cigarette causing a fire, I can imagine a cigarette starting a fire on the inside of the cabin which I assume would be put out by the cabins sprinkler system but on the balconies at that time of morning the balcony is very damp. Damp enough that when a cigarette is laid in an ashtray it generally will not stay lit. And with the breeze it is difficult to light a lighter or matches. Likewise, towels or clothing would also be damp so it would be very difficult for me to believe that a cigarette on the balcony could start such a blaze.

[MISSYLOU]

Forgot to ask this question. Has there been any word on who discovered the fire to begin with? Do we know if all of the affected passengers are going to be interviewed? Were the people on Dolphin deck (one cabin in particulare) the first to run out of their cabins? The rumor about the family having a spat is an interesting one too.

[D4]

Wow, this is a great thread. It's nice that it has stayed on topic and been nice.

 

As a cruise lover and a fireman's daughter, I'm very curious about the cause of this fire. I can't ask my dad his thoughts because he is on a 14 day Celebrity cruise (not the South American one!). He is a retired fire captain and I know he'll be interested in this post. He's not internet savvy, so I'll print it and mail it to him.

 

Having a bag to grab with medicines is a great idea. The only time I've heard that suggested was on the Caribbean Princess last summer during the muster drill and it was our 11th cruise (on 5 different lines.) Weird...

 

I have made one decision based on this week's events. I've been thinking about buying a handheld programmable scanner for my summer cruise. I've heard the marine channels are interesting when in port. I was trying to decide if I would I'd have enough 'fun' with it to spend the money and bring yet another gadget and charger with me on cruises. Now I'll buy one. I'm already the geeky lady walking around with a GPS that I only bought to use on cruises. (Of course I realize I wouldn't have grabbed the scanner if my cabin were on fire.)

 

And my sincere thanks to all of you that help keep us safe!

[Princess Chatterer]

"The students said there weren't enough fire personnel, so some of the fraternity members helped to locate fire hoses."

 

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14188236.htm

[Globaliser]

As this seems to be the only adult discussion thread on the subject, can I please throw in some thoughts for the experts' views?

 

Whatever the cause of the fire, and whether it was accidental or deliberate, it seems that it spread quite rapidly from balcony to balcony outside the ship, where there are no sprinkler systems etc. There's been some speculation that the balconies themselves may have been burning because aluminium will burn in circumstances when steel will not. And certainly the aluminium might melt and disintegrate at temperatures when steel would retain its structure.

 

Now, if aluminium is indeed the metal used for balconies, and is used instead of steel because it's lighter and therefore allows more balconies (and perhaps more decks with balcony cabins) within stability requirements, what might the longer-term effects be for the design of ships? Could we see a move back to all-steel construction? Fewer decks with balcony cabins? Fewer balconies? How will this affect the economics of cruising? Could the price premium for a balcony cabin increase with reduced supply? In the extreme situation, could we see the cruise lines having to replace existing aluminium balconies?

[Basfreeman]

I asked this question on another thread, but this may be a better place to get an answer. This is not speculation as to cause of fire-I'm just interested in an "expert" opinion on the matter. Does anyone know how safe personal oxygen bottles/containers are-the ones that some pax must travel with? Every time I see someone using them, I wonder if there are some type of standards that must be met.