Crown Princess Incident

[TexasMom2]

Rolloman, you have gone too far.

 

Mindy never used the word "passageway", she used "hallway", so my interpretation was she didn't end up in the "passageway". But that is neither here nor there. It is very uncool of you to accuse anyone of overexaggerating. She was on the ship and unfortunately didn't have a sailing encyclopedia at hand. She was just trying to convey how it seemed to her, not write a thesis or contribute to the NTSB report. We appreciate her trying to explain to her fellow CCers what it felt like. We can all understand that without splitting hairs.

 

And so your complete disregard for diplomacy AND your credibility went right out the window once again, with your blatant insult to MerionMom. Shame on you.

[saltycaptn]

Umm ... I guess because those reports came from passengers on board. "Local stations" wouldn't be likely to have staff on every cruise ship afloat, would they? In reality, the media did a superb job covering this Carnival/Princess mess.

 

We all should be relieved that there were no fatalities. But as with the Star fire, that bit of good news doesn't change the underlying fact ... something went enormously wrong with a Carnival-owned ship. Again.

 

Time for Carnival to put serious $$ into fresh engineering studies.

 

Meanwhile, let's hope the company genuinely takes care of the Crown passengers and crew; otherwise, this is exactly the kind of thing that the civil court system was created for. And it's why I'm happy to be an American, protected by those courts ... if this same thing happened in most countries, the injured would be at the complete mercy of the cruise line. But not here. God bless trial lawyers.

 

EscapefromConnecticut:

 

Let me say a few words in defense of Princess...based on the fact that all of your listed cruises seem to be with Royal Caribbean. I have been on two Princess cruises so far, The Grand Princess in March 2003 and the Dawn Princess in late 2004. We had no problems with the Grand (aside from my Mom taking sick aboard)...and not from anything that Princess did. On the Dawn we were on her just after a new engine was installed, of course she couldn't get to the ports fast enough so our first three ports were shortened.

 

As for compensation, I think that if you try Princess you will find that they are very accommodating, and will compensate well for problems encountered. Oh, of course, there are always people wanting to belly ache about not getting enough, but what we received (refund of port fees, etc.) was more than fair, plus they gave us an extra $200 onboard credit, in addition to what we were already given.

 

When I was on the Grand we were on the Lido deck (Deck 14), and I can speak to the engineering of these ships. We felt more rough seas in the Dawn on deck 10 than we did on the Grand and we went through a thunderstorm on the Grand.

 

I think before making a decision about a company, you really should try the services. I will admit that Princess seems to have had a string of bad luck sailings lately. But that will not tarnish my view of the quality of service offered by crews of Princess.

 

They should be commended for the excellent service and ability to handle disasters. I would have no problem sailing with them again. In fact, let me fish out my travel agent's number, I think I'll look at a Crown Princess sailing, because I have confidence that they will fix this problem!:D

 

My two cents,

Saltcaptn

[GMoney]

Joe - thanks for the pic with the 15 degree list; very helpful. You are a smart guy!

 

Stop arguing about list degrees until the final report is out!

The ship monitors roll constantly and will give a definite figure once the investigation is complete. Baring any catostrauphic mechanical failure, the ship is designed to roll that much, for swift manuverability in emergencies, not under normal sailing ofcourse.

As for the roll being more severe on higher decks is it NOT. 15 deg roll is 15 deg roll, on deck 0 all the way up to deck 15 or whatever. It is true the arc displacement is greater however it is not the arc displacement or any rotational acceleration which caused the tipping damage. That would be true if the ship rolled and accelerated pushing everything (throwing it) to the side. This is not the case. The X component of the Normal force of Gravity (in the direction perpendicular to roll) is what caused everything to overcome its 1) coefficient of friction or 2) center of mass, to topple over and crash. Thus if you had a china cabinet at the center of roll rotation and a china cabinet on deck 30, they would see the same component of normal force and fall the exact same. Anyone else with an engineering degree or who has taken Statics, Dynamics, or even Gravitational Physics or Trig want to back me up?

 

Measured with a protractor, this IS a 15 deg list.

 

[TPKeller]

It hasn't been the highlight of the conversation, but it has been mentioned that the list was caused by a sharp turn.

 

If the rudder kicked over causing a turn and list, then don't forget that not only did the deck tilt, there would be additional force of the hard turning ship adding to the sloping deck. Unlike airplanes, ships lean away from the turn, so a hard turn to the left would explain a list to the right. This additional force would add to the downsloping deck making it that much more difficult for people and things to stay in place.

 

Think of your car during a spin around a cloverleaf onto an interstate!

 

Theron

[MaryPoppinz]

There is something wrong with that photograph for me. It's taken across the aft deck, from port to starboard. The 'tilt' in the picture appears to be forward, rather than starboard. Could someone explain how the starboard list angle could be measured from this photograph?

[Merion_Mom]

Nancy came up with a good analogy for this turn, Theron.

 

Remember, we were in a corner aft balcony cabin, so we saw the wake immediately after the incident. (that, by the way, is airline euphemism for a "crash" :cool: ) OK, *I* saw it - Nancy was terrified of going out on the balcony.

 

Have you ever been on a ski boat when the boat turns around to pick up the skier? That's what we saw - a C curve in the water. You should never be able to see that behind a huge cruise ship. :)

[Cassandra]

I hope everyone makes it home ok and the reason why the Captain announced they were kicking in the Stabilers?

 

We have a Tropical Storm just sitting slightly north of North Carolina. High winds, approx. 60mph (last report at 11:30pm Eastern).

 

Anyway, you guys would have traveled right into it to get back to NY. And probably feel alot worse as well. It's not moving fast enough for the ship to avoid.

 

Supposed to be here Thurs. afternoon just off of Long Island & veer towards Mass.

[Merion_Mom]

Stop arguing about list degrees until the final report is out

The ship monitors roll constantly and will give a definite figure once the investigation is complete. Baring any catostrauphic mechanical failure, the ship is designed to roll that much, for swift manuverability in emergencies, not under normal sailing ofcourse. As for the roll being more severe on higher decks is it NOT. 15 deg roll is 15 deg roll, on deck 0 all the way up to deck 15 or whatever. It is true the arc displacement is greater however it is not the arc displacement or any rotational acceleration which caused the tipping damage. That would be true if the ship rolled and accelerated pushing everything (throwing it) to the side. This is not the case. The X component of the Normal force of Gravity (in the direction perpendicular to roll) is what caused everything to overcome its 1) coefficient of friction or 2) center of mass, to topple over and crash. Thus if you had a china cabinet at the center of roll rotation and a china cabinet on deck 30, they would see the same component of normal force and fall the exact same. Anyone else with an engineering degree or who has taken Statics, Dynamics, or even Gravitational Physics or Trig want to back me up?

Joe, I have no idea what you said, BUT I'M IMPRESSED NONETHELESS. :)

[dobie]

Carol, I said this pages ago....but I truly appreciate you keeping us informed, even before the news knew about it...and being so level minded and objective....some of the interviews I have watched tonight on the Internet (I live in AZ so there is no coverage of this) have been on the sensationalistic side....thank you so much for taking the time, and I am so glad that you and your friends made it home without injury.

[Lynda90]

So glad to hear that your home safely. Thanks for sharing this experience with us.

[Merion_Mom]

Carol, I said this pages ago....but I truly appreciate you keeping us informed, even before the news knew about it...and being so level minded and objective....some of the interviews I have watched tonight on the Internet (I live in AZ so there is no coverage of this) have been on the sensationalistic side....thank you so much for taking the time, and I am so glad that you and your friends made it home without injury.

BTW, Dobie, the Terrace Pool on the aft is a VERY small pool, but the bar is right by the pool, and there were no kids there any time that I walked by. (I spent no time there, except for one short chat with friends). While I forgot to specifically notice for you, I don't remember it being shaded at all. Certainly most (if not all) is in the sun.

 

There are areas under cover around the Lotus Pool, and I find the Lotus Pool MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer than the Terrace. There IS that matter of the bar, though, if that matters to you.

[FC Corp]

(Posting on two threads)

Reading these posts, I will put in my two cents (yes, I was there).

We all have our own personal experiences about the incident and as everyone knows, one persons experience may not correlate with another’s. That being said, it irks me that the media seekers use situations such as this for their own personal gain whether it's publicity or financial rewards they are seeking. Having experienced first hand along with my fellow CC members the event, statements such as seawater was flowing down the stairs, the ship listed 30-45 degrees, this that, that this in my opinion just glorifies that persons encounter for “personal gain.” Reminds me of the exaggerated stories told by the campfire during my Boy Scout days. Those stories always made us look good to the “greenies.” To those who have spoken to the media with exaggeration, shame on you. To those who have spoken to their lawyers who btw advised them (the passengers) to take pictures and document as much as they could, shame on you all. As another poster here stated, Maritime Law is in effect and any good lawyer would know maximum damages would be around the $10k range for a situation such as this. No I am not a lawyer and yes, I am probably wrong about my assessments. Anyway, enough about that, if this paragraph ticked you off, so be it, you’ll get over it soon enough.

The Casino. There may have been some chips taken and it’s unfortunate that people use situations such as this for personal gain. It happened with 9/11, Katrina and it will happen with the Crown. I spoke with an elderly lady in the casino last night who said she was playing slots and had about $12 on her machine. She said the money was gone when she returned to the machine and had noticed another lady leaving with a bucket of coins. It was her presumption that this lady had taken her money. I can’t say whether or not it happened, just sharing a conversation.

I did speak with the Casino Manager and his assistant for about an hour last night. (They know me very well, right Carol?) They told me they were very proud of the way their staff handled the situation and that losses were at a minimal, if even that. Players who lost chips were reimbursed and I am sure much of it was on the honor system. Again, those who cheat the system, well we all know what they can do with their ill-gotten gains. Fortunately the slot machines were bolted down. The manager told me the ship yard tried to deliver the ship without bolting them down but they demanded they be bolted. Each table was to be bolted down but several were only bolted on a corner. Moving on…

Cell Phones… I assure you there was NO cell phone coverage available when this incident happened or up to an hour afterwards. We were roughly 11 miles out to sea. I did allow fellow cruisers in my “neighborhood” the use of my satellite phone. There was one guy who called his mother to let her know he was okay. If it was his mother who called the Coast Guard, I regret allowing him to use my phone. Thinking back I should have not even offered its use to anyone. It was one of those moments where you just try to help out your fellow neighbor. Common sense should have told me that the world would not know about the situation for quite a while and that by the time word got to the media, we would be close enough to shore that everyone would have a signal on their cell phone to call their loved ones.

The Captain… As for the captain not contacting the Coast Guard right away, it’s not policy for him to do so until the ship is stabilized or the life boats are being lowered. Of course there are other situations which would warrant immediate notification. There are radios on board and I am sure someone somewhere was monitoring the air waves hearing all the chatter going back and forth. I do agree with others that his initial message to us all was very disturbing as you could feel the fear in his voice which lead me to believe he may have had doubts while righting the ship. Then again, with all that adrenaline flowing, I myself probably would not have even been able to get out a single word.

Moving on… I know this is long but hey, you can always click that mouse button and move on if need be. I have been thinking about this incident as well as the incident on the other Princess ship. From what I have heard, the Crown was cruising at about 18 knots when the software sent a command to the rudder to make an “emergency turn.” This would be like driving a car around 40 mph and just turning the wheel all the way to one direction without slowing down first. Momentum would carry the car over to the opposite direction. One would say the rudder could not move fast enough for this to happen on a ship. Well apparently it can. We all heard a very loud grinding noise before the ship began to gradually lift. It was a gradual lift, not a thrust. Like a weight lifter bringing the barbell above his head. Obviously the rudder (or its components) was making the grinding sound and obviously the rudder did not turn all the way. Had it turned all the way, the degree the ship listed would have been much more severe. I don’t know, I am not an engineer and am just speculating. Those who say it lasted for minutes are dead wrong. I was laying butt naked (under a towel) on a massage table and from the time the table slid into the door and knocked it open, I was off, clothes practically on and out the door running to the rear of the ship to find my son. Before I even made it out of the Spa the listing had stopped and I was running at only a very slight angle which indicated the ship was righting itself. Water was coming down the stairs and people were yelling that we were sinking but being on deck 16 or wherever the spa was and the fact my feet were planted on the ground, not a wall or the ceiling, it was obvious the water was coming from the pool(s). One report stated a lady claims her bed felt as it were at an angle while sleeping earlier that day. Whatever <rolling eyes>……… For those who care (thanks) I found my son almost right away. We had already agreed if anything happened, to meet in the room and grab the life vests, which he did. People laughed at us for holding our life vests. Oh well, they can laugh all they want.

“Software Glitch” … I am not familiar with the software they use on board and hopefully neither is anyone else who is not under their employ. If what happened to the other Princess ship happened to the Crown, what a coincidence. This is computer software we are talking about. This software was loaded into the system at a given point and had apparently run flawlessly up until the list occurred. What would have made the software all of the sudden “glitch” even though it had not done so before? For seven days that software apparently ran flawlessly and all the sudden performing routines it had performed for days a glitch occurred? If there was a software flaw in the other ship, one would presume tests would have been performed on other ships in the fleet and the appropriate patches would have been distributed accordingly, just as our “buddy” Bill at MS sends out his monthly patches to fix flaws in his Windows operating system. Who knows, just makes me wonder which leads me to my next “wondering.”

What if a bad guy were able to upload a virus into a system such as the ships that would make it perform such a maneuver at a predetermined time programmed into the virus? Is this thinking ridiculous? Who knows, perhaps I sound like a fool but hey, this is Y2K06 and technology is advancing at a rapid pace. What’s to say the bad guys are able to hack into the system somehow, send a virus via satellite uplink through an undiscovered open port? One would have to presume Homeland Security is investigating possibilities such as this. Again, I am not saying it happened here or with the other Princess ship but it’s a scary thought in my mind anyway. (Bet I get a knock on my door for posting this thought!)

Okay, on to more positive writings. Ferris (my 13yo son) and I left the ship today. We booked a flight to NYC for Thursday morning and had intended on staying on the ship through tonight. However, we were advised that Customs (which by the way Carol did not ask me for my form, I walked back and handed it to them) would not be available at 5am which is when I needed to leave to catch my early morning flight. As a result, we decided to leave the ship and get a hotel. Before leaving today at around 4:30 they announced Customs would be on duty at 5am tomorrow morning. Go figure…. We were told that once anyone leaves the ship, they would not be allowed back on. I did read in this thread that someone said the ship was moved tonight so it would be closer to a park, etc. so people who were staying on the ship could get off and on to go do whatever. I would be surprised if that were the case.

We slept late today, even though the phone rang early for breakfast. Upon speaking to Joanie later, she suggested I call room service, which I did. I asked for eggs, bacon, the works, the guys says he is sorry but only continental breakfast would be served. Well I took the advice of my newly founded friend (who btw is a retired attorney) and advised room service that “I am in the owner’s suite” and yes, it finally worked, we got that breakfast! Inspectors were all over today. One lady was pulling carpet up from the Lido and instructed staff it was still wet underneath and had to be completely dry. I had a nice lunch and visit with Al and Joanie who btw are such wonderful individuals. I hated to leave them behind. I hope your dinner this evening was great! Living within close proximity, I am sure we will all reunite for dinners here and there down the road.

Carol and Nancy, what can I say, the two of you are great. Dinners were a blast. I am happy to hear you found your pictures! Nancy, I do have a confession, I have never voted for a liberal so I am not sure you would have received my vote in the final. Carol, what a bundle joy AND good luck you are, you can cut my deck anytime! Terry, wow, such a charming and beautiful lady. I am sorry my son and your grandson were split into separate groups. I was so happy to read your recent post to learn you and your family are okay. To those others from the roll call I briefly met, I am sorry I did not spend more time with you. It’s definitely my loss.

In closing (yes, finally), I want to lift the Crown staff up on a pedestal and say thanks. They handled the situation yesterday so very well and were under pressure for hours on into the night through today to perform. Stop and think about what they are going through. The majority are from poor countries who are working far away from home sending their earnings to support not only their wife and kids but their extended families as well. Practically all of us yesterday were fortunate to have at least one family member with us to hug and hold tight for comfort during our moments of uncertainty. While they (the crew) had one another, they did not have a family member to hug and hold during this time. Even today many of their families have no idea about what happened. Had tragedy occurred, the majority of their family members would not have known about their loved ones fate until a phone call, a letter or a knock on the door, which could occur many days later, depending on where they live and their surroundings. To those passengers who helped out the crew, even if it was only putting things back together in your own cabin, kudos to you all.

Greg

[JLC@SD]

Originally Posted by rolloman

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindykatz

It was definately more than 15 degrees...15 degrees would not have caused me to slide straight out of my bed into my door and fall into the hallway...

 

So you make a habit of laying on your bed with your cabin door open? The doors are very secure so dont come back with another pinnochio type statement that it flew open.

rolloman, this thread, and others from actual Crown Princess/Cruise Critic cruisers has been quite civilized.

 

Your post is totally out of line, why and if you say one more nasty thing to my friend Mindy, I will indeed retaliate in kind.

 

I'm tired, and am typing whatever the heck I feel like without regard to board rules and guidelines, but you are just WRONG and BAD to do this.

 

hang on..........rolloman asks a valid question........how do you roll out of bed and into the hallway.........when the doors open into the room........:confused:

[bdjam]

Reading these posts, I will put in my two cents

Excellent - worth much more than two cents.

hang on..........rolloman asks a valid question........how do you roll out of bed and into the hallway.........when the doors open into the room........

I was thinking the same thing - but if I said anything like that I'd be told I wasn't there to experience it so I don't know any better.

 

Princess did officially state (see Cruise News Daily) that the list was 15 degrees - I don't think they'd state a falsehood while the NTSB is investigating.

[Merion_Mom]

Thanks for posting, Greg........you're making me blush. ;)

 

When I walked through the casino (I was really curious to see how it had fared; they had EVERYTHING cleaned up SO fast), a woman was at the cashier's window, explaining that she had money/chips on the table when the incident happened, but wasn't sure how much. The casino person said, "well, how much do you think it was?" and that's how much she gave the lady! So classy.

 

Just remember, Greg, they may have given you bacon and eggs, but they never did deliver that ice cream! ;)

 

I am glad that you and Ferris are safe and headed home tomorrow.

 

Paging Greg Ferris, paging passenger Greg Ferris. Please call Passenger Services at extension 6000. :D :D :D

[suzy1212]

hang on..........rolloman asks a valid question........how do you roll out of bed and into the hallway.........when the doors open into the room........:confused:

I don't know what she meant, but it is possible that she had her cabin door propped open. My friend's cabin was a couple of doors down from ours and she often kept hers open.

[FC Corp]

Just remember, Greg, they may have given you bacon and eggs, but they never did deliver that ice cream! ;)

 

So we eat dinner in the hotel tonight, I tell Ferris we will order Ice Cream later in the room and watch a movie. Guess what... They don't have any Ice Cream!!!!!!!!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

Paging... ha ha ha.... funny how "Greg Ferris" never responded and no thought was given as to why...

 

Mom called today and said Princess had called her (left her number as an emergency number). They wanted me to call them to make flight arraingments. Gave them the info last night, guess it had not been inputed into the system yet. Not to sound rude but I wonder why they called my mom when they knew where I was and how to reach me?

[denneym1]

As for the roll being more severe on higher decks is it NOT. 15 deg roll is 15 deg roll, on deck 0 all the way up to deck 15 or whatever. It is true the arc displacement is greater however it is not the arc displacement or any rotational acceleration which caused the tipping damage.

 

I think you are wrong about that. The higher decks would have a greater arc of motion. The distance they move would be greater, but the time component would be the same, in other words, they would move faster relative to the lower decks. The higher acceleration would impart more momentum to the objects being moved or thrown. It is just like the difference between hitting a baseball on the end of the bat and hitting it closer to the handle end. The far end of the bat is accelerating faster and therefore imparts more force and velocity to the ball.

MD

[rubrrick]

I disagree and this has been addressed up thread. The FIRST responsibility of a captain is to deal with the emergency at hand and assess. I bet the person with the cellphone called within moments. The captain is first and foremost responsible for the souls on board. Same sort of rules apply to airline pilots. Aviate, Nagivate, Communicate.

 

Fly the airplane in an emergency

Figure out where you are

Communicate after the first two steps have been completed.

 

As a retired pilot..........this is exactly what I was taught.

 

No one knows exactly what was happening on the bridge......at the moment of the incident, and how it was handled......till the investigation is complete.

 

Carol and Nancy..........thanks for all of your communications. As the traffic on CC was so heavy last night, I could not get on to even check on you two. Glad you are home safe..........and look forward to details as you want to present them.

 

Rick

[MattInFLL]

I'm hardly an engineer, and don't pretend to be an expert, but, as I said, the degree is the same no matter where you are on tilt axis.. but you will feel more "displaced" the farther you are from the center of gravity...Climb up to the top of a mast in a sail boat, and as it tilts in the waves, your body is moving a greater distance from 0 degrees with the tilt of the boat, than a body standing on the deck. And your body weight moving a greater distance means you are going to feel whatever degree of tilt up there more than the person standing on deck. The tilt angle is the same. The feeling is not.

 

If you are prone to sea sickness, it is well known to try and get a cabin on the lowest deck closest to the center of the ship, because you will feel the motion less than you will on a higher deck, further from the center.

 

When I went through a major earthquake, I lived on the first floor. None of our furniture (bookcases, etc.) overturned. Our dishware stayed in the cupboards. People with apartments above us had more and more damage, where the people on the fourth floor basically had all their furniture overturn and all their dishware spill out of kitchen cabinets. An earthquake may not be a list, and there are obvious structural differences between a building rooted to the ground and a floating ship - but a structure subjected to the same forces will see those forces get exaggerated higher up in the structure.

[TPKeller]

Nancy came up with a good analogy for this turn, Theron.

 

Remember, we were in a corner aft balcony cabin, so we saw the wake immediately after the incident. (that, by the way, is airline euphemism for a "crash" :cool: ) OK, *I* saw it - Nancy was terrified of going out on the balcony.

 

Have you ever been on a ski boat when the boat turns around to pick up the skier? That's what we saw - a C curve in the water. You should never be able to see that behind a huge cruise ship. :)

Wow now that would be a picture worth a thousand words.. I wonder if anyone got one of that wake?

 

What a great line. In a few days, when this all settles down and we can joke around again, this would have the makings of a great thread!! Things you should never see on a cruise ship... :)

 

Theron

[JLC@SD]

I don't know what she meant, but it is possible that she had her cabin door propped open. My friend's cabin was a couple of doors down from ours and she often kept hers open.

 

I can't get my door to prop open in a level sea with those strong hinges they install to slam it shut.....:)

[TPKeller]

“Software Glitch” … I am not familiar with the software they use on board and hopefully neither is anyone else who is not under their employ. If what happened to the other Princess ship happened to the Crown, what a coincidence. This is computer software we are talking about. This software was loaded into the system at a given point and had apparently run flawlessly up until the list occurred. What would have made the software all of the sudden “glitch” even though it had not done so before? For seven days that software apparently ran flawlessly and all the sudden performing routines it had performed for days a glitch occurred? If there was a software flaw in the other ship, one would presume tests would have been performed on other ships in the fleet and the appropriate patches would have been distributed accordingly, just as our “buddy” Bill at MS sends out his monthly patches to fix flaws in his Windows operating system. Who knows, just makes me wonder which leads me to my next “wondering.”

 

Greg

I actually do know a little bit about testing software... :eek:

 

Software in a system such as this is almost unbelievably complex. Remember these new ships are "fly by wire". There are electronic controls which feed computers, which do calculations and then send control signals to the actual hardware that drives and steers the ship. I am certain that you could run this sort of a system for decades with no problem, then suddenly discover a bug that had never been seen before. There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of different circumstances that can exist, each one of which must be handled 100% properly. One little mistake in design or implementation can have drastic results. There are well documented cases in the space program of "missing comma" type software mistakes causing the loss of a space vehicle. That's a nice euphemism for "rocket blew up"!

 

If something like this is what happened here, I doubt they will ever release the nitty gritty details. Good software safety analysis and testing is not cheap, and faces budgetary pressure just like everything else.

 

Theron

[joeinsb]

Greg,

 

You had me at "hello." Or actually, at "putting in my two cents worth." Yours was one of the more cogent reports of what happened on Crown.

But when you suggest that a hacker using a satellite downlink sent a virus to the ship's control computer, you are beginning to sound like Fox News. Or is it Nancy Grace? Bottom line, machines break and humans make mistakes.

[Merion_Mom]

Greg is not a conspiracy-theorist. He knows computers. He is not paranoid.

 

And he's a lot of fun, with a GREAT son! ;)