Will someone tell TA to quit saying HAL is for the old

[twoatsea]

"it isn't what you say, but how you say it" maybe that is where your problem lies." by NMNita

 

I agree with you NMNita, except for 1 word - "your". I think the word "the" describes "problem" better. Often on this board, posters are flamed for not having the "popular" opinion or expressing themselves according to a non-rule format established by others. My opinion is that in order to avoid negative comments, posters should not be required by some on this board to be perfect at describing their viewpoints. Why not give others some leaveway? OK, so some use shorthand or dramatic emotions to describe how they feel (remember the crucifiction of the "cruise from h*ll" & "topless deck" posters!?).

 

I realize message board posting allows some to act ugly towards others. But wouldn't it be nice if that would cease? Then we could all spend our time just talking & learning about cruising, rather than acting ugly!

[RevNeal]

Again, you weren't on that particular cruise. I believe my observations were right on and fact. How you be so arrogant to tell me that me that I am wrong. I can't believe a person of your occupation would treat people like that.

 

I'm sorry you believe that I am being arrogant. Granted, I was not on that particular cruise and, hence, I don't have a first-hand observation to share about what was factually the case on your particular cruise. But, then, I'm not really taking issue with you over the demographic constitution of your particular cruise aboard the Amsterdam. While I doubt that a full 99% of the passengers were senior citizens, I don't doubt that your observations indicated to you that a huge percentage (70% to possibly as high as 80%) were of that demographic range. Since I've had similar experiences aboard HAL ships -- I've been on cruises where the overall age averaged much higher than even HAL's normal range -- such doesn't seem out of line to me. What WAS out of line was your extrapolating from your experience and stating that: "Holland boats are just floating nursing homes." Even IF the Amsterdam had 99% senior citizens aboard for your cruise (let us say that it was an AARP Group Cruise), what makes you think that the other 12 ships in the HAL fleet have the same demographics, regardless of length of itinerary or region of the world being sailed? What other Holland America Line ships have you been aboard? How many cruises on HAL have you made? In other words, what substantiates your generalized conclusion about "Holland boats" from a SINGLE 10 day European Cruise aboard the Amsterdam??? What makes you think that what you experienced aboard the Amsterdam, on a 10 day cruise in Europe, enables you to draw such a conclusion about, let us say, the average 7-day Caribbean or Alaska cruise aboard the Zuiderdam or the Whateverdam? I'm sorry, but if you think I am being arrogant for asserting that your observation regarding the passenger demographics on the Amsterdam were a tad hyperbolic, then I am not about to mince any more words: YOU were arrogant for asserting, based upon your limited experience aboard the Amsterdam, that: "Holland boats are just floating nursing homes." You've been on ONE Holland "boat" ... not all 13 Holland "boats." If you had said "The Amsterdam was just a floating nursing home during my 10-day cruise aboard her" I might have taken offense at the pejorative terminology, but such would constitute your opinion and I would probably have not bothered to remark. But you didn't do that. Rather, you took your experience and extrapolated from it that "Holland boats are just floating nursing homes." How can you hold such an opinion based upon just a single sailing aboard a single HAL ship?

 

I never said it was a bad cruise and being on a boat of older passengers wasn't the problem. Just stating a fact that it definitely was an older crowd on this particular cruise and that I don't feel that the Holland Cruise line is necessarily better than other cruise lines that I have been on.

 

And, with that, I have absolutely NO problem at all. I disagree, but that's within the arena of agreeable disagreement. Had you just said that, I probablyl wouldn't have remarked at all.

 

I do take offense to your remark about not being on a boat "bothered by a large swarm of brats". I teach and love kids. They are not brats - they are full of energy. Its no different being on a ship full of kids running up and down on the elevators or being on the Amsterdam trying to go somewhere on the elevator that is full and the door keeps opening because some older passenger keeps pushing the button. This happened to me several times. Which passenger (the child or the adult) should have more common sense?

 

Gee ... I'm sorry. I love children, too. And, most of the children I know and have cruised with aboard HAL have been fantastic children, well behaved and courteous ... sometimes far more-so than adults. But ... I've also had some unfortunate experiences with some kids who were decidedly NOT well behaved or courteous. I was being somewhat hyperbolic myself in that regard ... 3 rude and obnoxious kids constitutes a "swarm." :)

 

I'm done here defending myself. I'm just going to end this by saying that I am deeply disturbed by many of your comments and how you treat others on here. I'm glad I have a pastor that is more tolerant of other's opinions.

 

Please give some thought to what I've said above before your judge me, either spiritually or professionally. I suspect many would say that I am exceedingly tolerant of other people's opinions, and don't generally have a problem with differing points of view. That being said, I am not tolerant of ageism, sexism, racism, or prejudice on matters of sexual orientation. I'm sorry if you have been disturbed by my holding your feet to the fire which your ageist pejorative generalizations lit, but being the pastor of a church with many senior citizens tends to make me more than just a bit sensitive to such issues.

[Family Man]

From one in his mid 40s, I look forward to taking my first HAL cruise. Unfortunately, it looks like we will have to wait until 2008 as 2007 is pretty full already. From what I have read on this board, I know it will be an outstanding experience.

[RevNeal]

There is no logic to your fallacy. That picture was representative of the whole cruise; Jan 2005, the NLV cruise out of Tampa. To the right of this picture was the doorway. Why should I take a picture of a group at muster drill that was not the norm on that cruise... perhaps all the young passengers were on the other side. The fallacy is in implying that all pictures have the intention to mislead because they are neither total nor continuous.:cool:

 

non sequitur.

argumentum a silentio

post hoc ergo propter hoc.

i.e. ...

Hasty generalization ... specifically, cognitive distortion.

 

You state that the photo was representative of the whole cruise -- and I have no reason to doubt you -- but the photo, in and of itself, does not provide sufficient information to substantiate this assertion. Biased sampling and, specifically, argumentum a silentio applies here. Any subsequent conclusions drawn will be post hoc in essence and non sequitur in substance.

 

In other words, your question implies that what the photo does not show proves that what the photo does show is all that there was. Illogical.

[C 2 C]

but the photo, in and of itself, does not provide sufficient information to substantiate this assertion.

 

Sophistry is alive and well. BS is a simpler term for arguing that a photo does not show what you know is an abvious falsehood. I know what I know; don't confuse me with the facts.

 

I don't know what your point is.

I showed a picture of typical passengers on our HAL cruise experience. In reality this is the picture of the HAL Club kids. I just used my photo program to age them a little.:cool:

[codyody]

I often (when asked!) give advice to my young friends who rent to look at the cars in an apartment's parking lot; if they are similar to yours, you will probably be comfortable in the complex. Perhaps we could rate cruise lines in this way...Glenn Miller, Country, Beatles (I still remember the first time I heard Beatles muzak in a elevator:eek: ), Alternative, Rap, Classical, etc. Might be indicative...

[newmexicoNita]

I often (when asked!) give advice to my young friends who rent to look at the cars in an apartment's parking lot; if they are similar to yours, you will probably be comfortable in the complex. Perhaps we could rate cruise lines in this way...Glenn Miller, Country, Beatles (I still remember the first time I heard Beatles muzak in a elevator:eek: ), Alternative, Rap, Classical, etc. Might be indicative...

That is exactly the type of questions a good TA will ask. It's about what is right for you; 30 somethings may be at home with HAL and some 70 pluses not at all. NMNita

[RevNeal]

Sophistry is alive and well. BS is a simpler term for arguing that a photo does not show what you know is an abvious falsehood. I know what I know; don't confuse me with the facts.

 

I don't know what your point is.

I showed a picture of typical passengers on our HAL cruise experience. In reality this is the picture of the HAL Club kids. I just used my photo program to age them a little.:cool:

 

LOL. We're now belaboring the point ad nauseam. However, for the heck of it, let's give it a once-more.

 

I objected to bpjazzer's statement: "Holland boats are just floating nursing homes." because: (a) it was predicated upon a far-too-limited sample; (b) the pejorative language used was ageist and, hence, insulting to a large number of people; and © I was being anal retentive that day (and today, too, it would seem ;)). Setting aside points (b) and ©, let's look at point (a).

 

Even if bpjazzer's assertion regarding the demographics of that cruise aboard the Amsterdam were 100% accurate, and all but 14 passengers on that cruise were senior citizens (i.e., 99% of the passengers were senior citizens), such a fact is insufficient grounds for drawing his/her assertion because:

 

(1) the conclusion was drawn from too small a sampling: it was one cruise on one itinerary in one region (where said-region's passenger base is generally skewed to older-than-average anyway)

 

(2) drawing a conclusion on too small a sampling is reflective of argumentum a silentio: i.e., that what he saw on his lone cruise is assumed to be reflective of the entire cruise line, on all 13 ships, on all sailings, on all itineraries, in all regions where HAL sails. His sampling (his one cruise), due to its limited nature, can only be adduced to (a) affirm his specific cruise's demographics, and (b) only as part of a much larger sampling be used to support the kind of argument he made. Since his sample (cruise) was just a single sample (cruise), and not 30 or 40 samplings (cruises) spread over multiple ships, multiple itineraries, in multiple regions, at multiple times of the year, it can only serve as (a).

 

(3) making an argumentum a silentio and drawing conclusions from such an argument is both a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument and a classic non sequitur: i.e., "because I had this demographic make up on my HAL cruise, therefore all HAL cruises have this demographic make up." (or, to quote bpjazzer again: "Holland boats are floating nursing homes.")

 

What does this have to do with your picture?

You state: "I showed a picture of typical passengers on our HAL cruise experience."

Fine ... I have no reason to doubt it because I have been on enough HAL cruises to know that such is most probably the truth. Granted, there were probably some people younger than those pictured in the photo, and some older, but such constituted a typical collection of passengers on that particular cruise.

But it is an inadequate sample-size for proving that fact. Any conclusion that is attempted to be drawn from that photo (or, by extension, through implying that what is not in the photograph -- "younguns" -- were not on the cruise.) will be invalidated by (a) it's limited sample, and (b)argumentum a silentio.

 

Here's why.

The Veendam carries a double occupancy passenger compliment of 1258. Your photo pictured fewer than 12 passengers whose relative (visibly apparent) age could not be said to be equivalent to a "youngun." Yes, there are more people represented in the photo than that, but I cannot visually see them to identify them by age-range. An assertion, by you or by me, that everyone else standing behind -- and to the left and right -- of those pictured are of equal or greater age would be an "argument from authority" and inadmissible: if the picture is going to imply anything in and of itself, it must be able to speak for itself from within the confines of what it actually shows (and not, might I add, by implication from what it does not show). So, what does the picture show? Let's be generous and assert that it shows 12 people who do not appear to be "younguns." Is 12 people an adequate sample size aboard a ship that has a double-occupany passenger complement of 1258? It's not quite 1% ... and not even 1% taken at random. 10 more of these taken at random throughout the passenger complement and one would be approaching an adequate sample-size.

 

I can produce similar kinds of photographs of passengers from my cruises. On the Statendam to Hawaii in 2002 there were TWO children aboard. None of my photos show them. Because they're not pictured in any of my photos, does that prove that they were not aboard? No, of course not ... that would be an argument from silence. But such is PRECISELY what your photo attempts to do. The photos I did take on that cruise showed a lot of senior citizens, but they also showed quite a few couples in their 30s and 40s ... more, perhaps, than an actual demographic sampling of the ship would show to be the case because many of my photos were not random but, rather, specific to location, event, and passenger grouping (i.e., my table in the main dining room).

 

In short, the photo made your point only by illogical implication. It made mine by the fact that it was a too-small-of sample size to substantiate that which you were implying.

 

And this post is now, in and of itself, taking this entire discussion into the realm of the absurd. And to think I wrote it on a Saturday morning when I should be out, sitting by the pool, listening to Mozart, drinking iced tea, and reading a book!!!! ;) I definitely need a cruise!

[bpjazzer]

LOL. We're now belaboring the point ad nauseam. However, for the heck of it, let's give it a once-more.

 

I objected to bpjazzer's statement: "Holland boats are just floating nursing homes." because: (a) it was predicated upon a far-too-limited sample; (b) the pejorative language used was ageist and, hence, insulting to a large number of people; and © I was being anal retentive that day (and today, too, it would seem ;)). Setting aside points (b) and ©, let's look at point (a).

 

First of all I borrowed part of the phrase "nursing home" from an earlier post on this same thread. I also apologized for using it in an earlier post.

 

Even if bpjazzer's assertion regarding the demographics of that cruise aboard the Amsterdam were 100% accurate, and all but 14 passengers on that cruise were senior citizens (i.e., 99% of the passengers were senior citizens), such a fact is insufficient grounds for drawing his/her assertion because:

 

You don't like the percentage I gave. No problem. But I still believe in my observations that the percentage of retired passengers on the Amsterdam that cruise were in the upper 90's. I had early dinner seating. There was one family with kids. Couldn't tell you how many the late sitting, but I would hope parents with kids would have the earlier sitting. I only saw a few teenagers. Never saw any teens using the teen only facitlities in the back of the boat. I only saw or talked to four couples that were well below retirement age.

 

(1) the conclusion was drawn from too small a sampling: it was one cruise on one itinerary in one region (where said-region's passenger base is generally skewed to older-than-average anyway)

 

(2) drawing a conclusion on too small a sampling is reflective of argumentum a silentio: i.e., that what he saw on his lone cruise is assumed to be reflective of the entire cruise line, on all 13 ships, on all sailings, on all itineraries, in all regions where HAL sails. His sampling (his one cruise), due to its limited nature, can only be adduced to (a) affirm his specific cruise's demographics, and (b) only as part of a much larger sampling be used to support the kind of argument he made. Since his sample (cruise) was just a single sample (cruise), and not 30 or 40 samplings (cruises) spread over multiple ships, multiple itineraries, in multiple regions, at multiple times of the year, it can only serve as (a).

 

(3) making an argumentum a silentio and drawing conclusions from such an argument is both a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument and a classic non sequitur: i.e., "because I had this demographic make up on my HAL cruise, therefore all HAL cruises have this demographic make up." (or, to quote bpjazzer again: "Holland boats are floating nursing homes.")

 

And yes, I've only been on one Holland America cruise. But I have friends that have cruised on Holland boats and told me that the majority of the passengers were retired as well. And again I already apologized for using that phrase. Its more than I've ever seen you do on here.

 

The only reason I responded to this thread was because people were complaining that TA's were telling their clients that Holland was for the older crowd. I just wanted to say that was the way it was on my particular cruise and I see no reason why TA's shouldn't be truthful to their clients.

 

Will I ever cruise on Holland again. Not planning on it. Its not because of the age of the passengers and its not because I need to be on a party boat. I was back in my cabin every night around 8 PM. I was on this particular cruise because of the port stops it made. I didn't even want to get on board this cruise after I got attacked about a month ago asking if it is ok to wear jeans to the buffet at dinner. You were one of the people that responded to that thread then and attacked me. I don't plan on using Holland America again, because I have been on 3 other cruise lines and I feel that 2 of those in my opinion are better.

 

I can produce similar kinds of photographs of passengers from my cruises. On the Statendam to Hawaii in 2002 there were TWO children aboard. None of my photos show them. Because they're not pictured in any of my photos, does that prove that they were not aboard? No, of course not ... that would be an argument from silence. But such is PRECISELY what your photo attempts to do. The photos I did take on that cruise showed a lot of senior citizens, but they also showed quite a few couples in their 30s and 40s ... more, perhaps, than an actual demographic sampling of the ship would show to be the case because many of my photos were not random but, rather, specific to location, event, and passenger grouping (i.e., my table in the main dining room).

 

Using your logic I should attack you here. You must be mistaken. There couldn't have been only 2 children on that particular cruise. But I wasn't there so therefore I cannot contradict you. (hint, hint)

 

And this post is now, in and of itself, taking this entire discussion into the realm of the absurd. And to think I wrote it on a Saturday morning when I should be out, sitting by the pool, listening to Mozart, drinking iced tea, and reading a book!!!! ;) I definitely need a cruise!

 

You are the one making a big deal out of it. I forgive you and will pray for you. God bless you.

[RevNeal]

First of all I borrowed part of the phrase "nursing home" from an earlier post on this same thread. I also apologized for using it in an earlier post.[/Quote]

 

So I have noted from prior posts. I am not holding it against you. Nevertheless, at the time it was the proximate reason for my posting in response to you, and hence my reference in the post you were quoting.

 

You don't like the percentage I gave. No problem. But I still believe in my observations that the percentage of retired passengers on the Amsterdam that cruise were in the upper 90's. I had early dinner seating. There was one family with kids. Couldn't tell you how many the late sitting, but I would hope parents with kids would have the earlier sitting. I only saw a few teenagers. Never saw any teens using the teen only facitlities in the back of the boat. I only saw or talked to four couples that were well below retirement age.

 

The Amsterdam is rated as hosting 1380 passengers at double occupency. Assuming she was full, and 95% of her passengers were senior citizens, that would leave 69 aboard who were under retirement age. That is certainly possible, although I would suspect that the percentage of seniors aboard was less (perhaps as high as 90%). You admit that you only saw those who were at the early seating, and that you generally went back to your cabin by about 8 pm. You might want to know that the early seating times tend to be the favorite of seniors, while younger folk tend to prefer the main seating times. This is, of course, an anecdotal observation and a generalization, but it does cohere with my experience of cruising on HAL since 1994 as well as with what I have been told by Hotel Managers and Maitre 'Ds about the demands and dining time requests of ships passengers. Assuming, however, that the passenger census was fairly evenly divided between early and main seatings, you should double whatever you saw in the way of teens, children, and young couples. Then, add in the factor that a certain percentage of families with kids will eat NOT in the main dining room but in the Lido Restaurant. I don't know what this figure would be (I've never asked a Hotel Manager about these percentages), but it would not be a small number. For ease of estimation, you might want to triple whatever you saw in the early seating to reflect younger adults and families with children who were eating in the main seating and those who prefer to dine in the Lido. In short ... there were propbably more young couples with children/teens aboard than you realized.

 

bpjazzer, I don't at all doubt that your cruise was heavily senior in demographics. Your's was a 10-day cruise in Northern Europe. Such cruises tend to lean older than even HAL's average. But, for this very reason, it was a poor example of the entire Line's demographic breakdown. Yes, HAL's passengers generally run more heavily in the retirement range, but not to the extent that you characterized.

 

Using your logic I should attack you here. You must be mistaken. There couldn't have been only 2 children on that particular cruise. But I wasn't there so therefore I cannot contradict you. (hint, hint)

 

I understand what you're saying.

Again, it's not actually your observation of there being mostly senior citizens on your cruise; I don't doubt you on that. I doubted the 99% figure. You've already addressed this ... thank you.

 

As for my knowing that there were only 2 children aboard the Statendam for that 15 day Hawaii Cruise: I know this not because such was my impression or visual observation (hint hint), but because I was serving as chaplain aboard for that cruise and this was what I was told by the ship's Hotel Manager. In other words, I had access to precise data from someone whose job it was to know, and I had a need-to-know this information in direct connection with my duties aboard ship.

 

You are the one making a big deal out of it. I forgive you and will pray for you. God bless you.

 

Actually ... I'm not the only one making a big deal out of this. :)

I am sorry if I have done something for which you feel the need to forgive me, and I greatly appreciate your absolution and your prayers and blessing.

[RevNeal]

I didn't even want to get on board this cruise after I got attacked about a month ago asking if it is ok to wear jeans to the buffet at dinner. You were one of the people that responded to that thread then and attacked me.

 

I attacked you regarding wearing jeans to the buffet at dinner?

I'm going to have to go back and look that up.

Attack?

I think you either use that term FAR too freely, or are FAR too sensitive to input which differs from your own desires or expectations.

[RevNeal]

didn't even want to get on board this cruise after I got attacked about a month ago asking if it is ok to wear jeans to the buffet at dinner. You were one of the people that responded to that thread then and attacked me.

 

I have reviewed that thread.

I do not find a single "attack" from me directed at you or anyone on that thread. My only post that could be even remotely thought of as having any connection with your original post would be this one:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=6930217&postcount=21

 

In which I wrote:

 

I've never eaten dinner in the Lido, hence I cannot comment with any authority regarding what goes on there or how people dress when eating their evening meal there. However, relative to the ship and to dress codes in general, much of the advice already posted is good, and particularly so where caution is suggested relative to anecdotal observations and experience-based advice. Suffice it to say that each cruise is different -- not only in terms of itineraries and regions of the world but also from cruise to cruise within a region or on the same itinerary -- hence, "milage will vary."

 

I tend to enjoy the atmosphere of pomp and circumstance which "dressing up" for formal night brings. However, I'm more of a people-person than a "exterior" person ... I'm more interested in the PEOPLE that are wearing the clothing than I am the clothing they're in. I enjoy the Formal atmosphere and seeing people dressed very nicely, however such is not "necessary" for my enjoyment (though it does help).

 

This being said, I DO feel sorry for those who end up feeling conspicuous because they listened to well-meaning but erroneous advice about what one should and should not expect to find being worn on formal nights. Invariably I have discovered that they've been advised to ignore the code because "no one" or "very few" bother dressing according to it. They come on a HAL cruise and discover that this just isn't the case and they are embarrassed that they don't even have a jacket, much less a tie or a tuxedo. True, not EVERYBODY dresses up ... but most still do (perhaps not all in Tuxedos, but suits or jackets and ties) and it's nice to blend in and not be made to feel a spectacle by not being dressed similarly to one's fellow shipmates. I feel sorry for these people ... as chaplain I've talked with a fair number of them on 3 different cruises and, in many cases, it turns out that they were mislead by friends who had cruised before (though, often, not on HAL) and who had told them to ignore the code. I've yet to find one who was advised to ignore the code through coming to an online board; but I figure it's only a matter of time.

 

What in this post could be construed as an "attack"?? Quite the contrary, I express concern for people who have received poor advice, and I cautioned against accepting anecdotal observations as "fact." However, I did not attack you.

[newmexicoNita]

So I have noted from prior posts. I am not holding it against you. Nevertheless, at the time it was the proximate reason for my posting in response to you, and hence my reference in the post you were quoting.

 

 

 

The Amsterdam is rated as hosting 1380 passengers at double occupency. Assuming she was full, and 95% of her passengers were senior citizens, that would leave 69 aboard who were under retirement age. That is certainly possible, although I would suspect that the percentage of seniors aboard was less (perhaps as high as 90%). You admit that you only saw those who were at the early seating, and that you generally went back to your cabin by about 8 pm. You might want to know that the early seating times tend to be the favorite of seniors, while younger folk tend to prefer the main seating times. This is, of course, an anecdotal observation and a generalization, but it does cohere with my experience of cruising on HAL since 1994 as well as with what I have been told by Hotel Managers and Maitre 'Ds about the demands and dining time requests of ships passengers. Assuming, however, that the passenger census was fairly evenly divided between early and main seatings, you should double whatever you saw in the way of teens, children, and young couples. Then, add in the factor that a certain percentage of families with kids will eat NOT in the main dining room but in the Lido Restaurant. I don't know what this figure would be (I've never asked a Hotel Manager about these percentages), but it would not be a small number. For ease of estimation, you might want to triple whatever you saw in the early seating to reflect younger adults and families with children who were eating in the main seating and those who prefer to dine in the Lido. In short ... there were propbably more young couples with children/teens aboard than you realized.

 

bpjazzer, I don't at all doubt that your cruise was heavily senior in demographics. Your's was a 10-day cruise in Northern Europe. Such cruises tend to lean older than even HAL's average. But, for this very reason, it was a poor example of the entire Line's demographic breakdown. Yes, HAL's passengers generally run more heavily in the retirement range, but not to the extent that you characterized.

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying.

Again, it's not actually your observation of there being mostly senior citizens on your cruise; I don't doubt you on that. I doubted the 99% figure. You've already addressed this ... thank you.

 

As for my knowing that there were only 2 children aboard the Statendam for that 15 day Hawaii Cruise: I know this not because such was my impression or visual observation (hint hint), but because I was serving as chaplain aboard for that cruise and this was what I was told by the ship's Hotel Manager. In other words, I had access to precise data from someone whose job it was to know, and I had a need-to-know this information in direct connection with my duties aboard ship.

 

 

 

Actually ... I'm not the only one making a big deal out of this. :)

I am sorry if I have done something for which you feel the need to forgive me, and I greatly appreciate your absolution and your prayers and blessing.

but don't you know she wants to forgive you and I am sure she thinks you need her prayers. LOL

 

Nita

[bpjazzer]

I attacked you regarding wearing jeans to the buffet at dinner?

I'm going to have to go back and look that up.

Attack?

I think you either use that term FAR too freely, or are FAR too sensitive to input which differs from your own desires or expectations.

 

Maybe I am too sensitive, but I really don't appreciate being told that I don't my opinions aren't necessarily fact. At least I have admitted to my mistakes and have apologized on here. Something you have not ever done. I'm not the only one that dissapproves of many of your posts. I have friends that also mentioned to me that they have read your posts and are not fond of you or your viewpoints.

 

I think I could argue with you all day and you will never admit that maybe you aren't right about something. Guess its just your arrogance shining through.

 

You can keep responding here if you want, but I'm finished. My cruise is now a week past and I have more important things to do.

 

By the way, I thought the toilet roll picture was a bit immature. Another part of your personality showing itself.

[bpjazzer]

but don't you know she wants to forgive you and I am sure she thinks you need her prayers. LOL

 

Nita

 

I'm not a her. And yes I think he needs our prayers.

[RevNeal]

but don't you know she wants to forgive you and I am sure she thinks you need her prayers. LOL

 

Yes, Nita, I do. S/he has made it clear that such is the case.

And I covet all the prayers I can get, though some people do take to praying for me because they think I'm (1) too liberal, (2) too conservative, (3) too judgmental, (4) not judgmental enough, (5) too outspoken, (6) too reserved, (7) not Christian enough, (8) too Christian ... etc. ad nauseam.

[RevNeal]

Maybe I am too sensitive, but I really don't appreciate being told that I don't my opinions aren't necessarily fact. At least I have admitted to my mistakes and have apologized on here. Something you have not ever done. I'm not the only one that dissapproves of many of your posts. I have friends that also mentioned to me that they have read your posts and are not fond of you or your viewpoints.

 

bpjazzer ,

 

I am very sorry that I have judged you and have not valued your opinion.

I am very sorry that I have attacked you and have not been accepting of you and of your friends.

I have apologized, again and again and again, to a few individuals on this board for having made mistakes relative to how I have dealt with them. Those repeated apologies have not been accepted -- indeed, have been denied and refused and thrown back at me with repeated accusations and repeated, nasty, and libelous insinuations by one specific person. I suspect she is the one you reference.

 

I am sorry.

I repent

And I beg forgiveness.

[newmexicoNita]

Yes, Nita, I do. S/he has made it clear that such is the case.

And I covet all the prayers I can get, though some people do take to praying for me because they think I'm (1) too liberal, (2) too conservative, (3) too judgmental, (4) not judgmental enough, (5) too outspoken, (6) too reserved, (7) not Christian enough, (8) too Christian ... etc. ad nauseam.

We all need prayers and I will pray for you: heck I pray for our priest (she is a female btw) I pray that she will always be our priest even though I know she will retire soon and I will pray that no one accuses you of being too conservative; that is the best way. OK, before I get flamed, I am just joking guys;;;;;;;really!!!!!!!!

[newmexicoNita]

Yes, Nita, I do. S/he has made it clear that such is the case.

And I covet all the prayers I can get, though some people do take to praying for me because they think I'm (1) too liberal, (2) too conservative, (3) too judgmental, (4) not judgmental enough, (5) too outspoken, (6) too reserved, (7) not Christian enough, (8) too Christian ... etc. ad nauseam.

We all need prayers and I will pray for you: heck I pray for our priest (she is a female btw) I pray that she will always be our priest even though I know she will retire soon and I will pray that no one accuses you of being too conservative; that is the best way. OK, before I get flamed, I am just joking guys;;;;;;;really!!!!!!!!

[RevNeal]

We all need prayers and I will pray for you: heck I pray for our priest (she is a female btw) I pray that she will always be our priest even though I know she will retire soon and I will pray that no one accuses you of being too conservative; that is the best way. OK, before I get flamed, I am just joking guys;;;;;;;really!!!!!!!!

 

Thank you, Nita. Appreciate that greatly ... and particularly the humor. :)

[C 2 C]

Sophistry

1. belaboring the point ad nauseam.

so true

2. I was being anal retentive

yes

3. a silentio

I wish

5. In short,

Don't thik it's possible

6. And this post is now, in and of itself, taking this entire discussion into the realm of the absurd.

the truth at last

:eek:

[RevNeal]

Regarding my summation: "In short..."

 

Don't thik it's possible

 

Yes ... 'tis. :)

[Scrumpy]

Back to the original topic: Most of the TA's that I've spoken with seem to have an agenda and/or a favorite line that they push. When we had already chosen our latest cruise (ship and sailing), I still had to convince folks that was what I wanted. We had an agent pushing Oceania very hard, for example, for a cruise at the wrong time in the wrong part of the world! So, I think the agents who believe HAL is only appropriate for the aged will probably always say that until/unless they take a HAL cruise where that isn't the case - OR, they have another incentive to steer people elsewhere and repeat the stereotype to send them to the line that will benefit them most. It's a shame because, as stated repeatedly, it would be better (and ensure repeat business) if they asked questions about a person's wants and needs to HELP them determine which line is a good fit.

[Navy_Chief]

Well put Scrumpy!

[C 2 C]

Most of the TA's that I've spoken with seem to have an agenda and/or a favorite line that they push.

Would you know if the compensation a TA receives is unifrom throughout the industry? I recall the days of Renaissance when TAs would bad-mouth it only to hear pax exclaim its virtues. My former TA does not, or cannot deal with RCL any longer. I have never had any TA tell me which line to book however. RCL does not allow TA's to undercut their "list price". The agencies that respond to C_Compete give the same quotes for RCL sailings. If I call HAL direct, their prices are always higher than the sale prices advertised by other agencies.:confused: I just wonder if a TA does favor a certain line whether there is $ involved?