Fixing the Oosterdam

[Tinknock50]

Okay here's a silly question, what's "The April Haul out?"

 

That caught my eye too.....hmmmmm.

[USNDiver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by USNDiver

Okay here's a silly question, what's "The April Haul out?"

 

 

"That caught my eye too.....hmmmmm"

 

 

 

 

And more importantly, why does it have to be so close to my May sailing??

 

I got a bad feeling.

[USNDiver]

Sorry, double posted (guess I'm nervous)

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Okay here's a silly question, what's "The April Haul out?"

 

I am certainly not one that knows all but....I do know that the Oosterdam was just in Dry Dock for 10 days in Victoria on September 23rd. She is not scheduled to go back into have her "Aft Change" and other items added till 2008. So not sure what you mean by April. She has 4 departure Saturdays in April 2007 with cruises that can be booked. Three are Mexican Riviera the last is April 28th Coastal up to Vancouver to start her Alaska Season out of Seattle.

[rocosd]

Many of you do not know that this coming Saturday, the Oosterdam has a full ship CHARTER cruise called THE JAZZ CRUISE. Only a couple of people answered roll call for this cruise, although I do know that it is a sell-out.

 

I have been following closely the progress of repairs to the azipod (or NO REPAIRS). When the ship arrived in San Diego on Friday, October 13, I already knew of the condition (azipods) that brought it back early to San Diego and left a message on a good friend (who was a passenger) answering machine that "I already knew all about it"......... When we talked, she mentioned that she had gotten off Friday. The passengers were treated as if San Diego was just another port, taking dinner on that Friday night aboard ship.

 

When my friend talked to her group leader on Saturday the 14th, he mentioned how interesting it was to see the CRANE come and lift the ????? out of the water (and replace it????????). Now we know that someone saw "something" being done. Wonder where the 25 engineers that they flew to MAZATLAN were??????

 

This week's charter is HUGE!!! Great, straight ahead jazz with hundreds of the BEST musicians (I'm sure that we helped pay their fares because we paid LOTS more than it would have been regularly.) These musicians are coming from all over the country, and at one time I read that they would be loading somewhere under 20 GRAND PIANOS on Saturday morning. One TA handled this whole charter and they also handle smooth jazz, dixieland, and blues music charters so they are very experienced in "hand-holding" I would assume.

 

Can you imagine the logistics of "turning this cruise OFF" beforethe 28th???

 

Of course, this is our FIRST cruise, and thankfully we live in San Diego. I am only mildly concerned, though. The only precautions I will take are to take 12 bottles of wine, instead of 6!! It helps not to fly in!

 

I must say, it is truly hard to believe that "nothing" has been repaired since the world knew a week ago of that pending Baja hurricane and the ship went knowingly without change of course.

 

Wish me luck!

[fcorey]

Fcorey,

 

Thanks for your answers to my questions about the azipods and power for the Oosterdam. I must be missing something here, but I find it hard to believe the authorities (Coast Guard) would allow a ship carrying 1800 passengers to cruise the open ocean with only one engine! (let alone when there is a hurricane in the region). We are booked on the O’dam next month, and this entire situation has me a bit worried. Why?....

 

1. Reverse engineer this scenario: What would HAL’s response be if the remaining azipod fails while out to sea? How do you explain continuing to sail on only one engine, and then having the remining engine fail? To not plan for the worst case scenario is irresponsible.

 

2. Imagine if the airliner you were flying to San Diego had an engine failure. An engine failure is the very definition of an emergency (by the FAA). Your plane lands in Phoenix instead of San Diego. The airline pulls the failed engine off the airplane and tells the passengers that everything is OK, the flight will just take a bit longer because the plane is missing an engine. How many of you would board that plane for San Diego?

 

3. As an airplane pilot, this entire single azipod issue is very unnerving. The ship was designed for two azipods. If they could have designed it with just one, they would have. Is it wrong to assume that since they did not design it with one azipod, that two azipods are necessary for efficient and SAFE operations? I can understand limping back to port with a full load of passengers to fix the problem, however, I cannot understand continuing to sail, week after week, with a full load of passengers with only one azipod!!!

 

4. I hope I do not sound like chicken little, with reports of the ‘sky is falling, the sky is falling’. Unfortunately, with the absence of information, this is the best I can come up with. We can’t wait to take our first cruise with HAL, we just want it to be as safe as the ship was designed to be.

 

bentpilot, as a former USN officer I can tell you the the USCG would not let this ship be sailing anywhere out of the port of San Diego if they felt it unsafe.

I was watched in Mazatlan when 7 engineers from the manufacturer of the pod (ABB) were brought aboard. An additional crew met the ship in San Diego when we returned.

The Azimuthing Electric propulsive drive (azipod) was invented for ice breakers. They are quite tough. Furthermore there are numerous passenger vessel that are built with a single unit, Passenger ferries come to mind. The benefit of two is that there is less vibration while running two at lower RPM than a single unit at higher RPM. The reduced vibration and comfort was the reason they were adopted for cruise ships in the first place. Trust me a ship with conventional screws has much more vibration. Also as in this case if there is a failure you have another unit capable of powering the ship at near full speed. Not knowing the exact model used on this ship I am not certain of the inner workings. However it is also not uncommon for a pod two actually have 2 motors internally.

Your analogy comparing a passenger jet to a cruise ship is a bit off. A cruise ship does not have to attain speed necessary for take of, nor will it fall out of the sky if it cannot maintain speed.

Replacing a pod is also a bit more involved than pulling an engine from a jet. The ship itself is 85000 tons and must be removed from the water so that a special lifting cradle can be used to remove the 200 ton pod. I would also imagine that there arent any spares just hanging about.

 

All cruise ships must comply to RINA, SOLAS and USCG standard for safety. They are heavily scrutinized from design to build.

I do understand your concern, I wouldnt say you're being chicken little either, heck I was aboard during the "failure" and saw and smelled smoke from my veranda. But rest assured they are not going to jeopardize 2000 passengers in our litigious society :) seriously though, they would not be sailing the ship if they were unable to insure the safety of the passenger any more than you would take off in an aircraft that you were not sure of.

 

replacing the field windings at sea may not be possible, I dont know. I am not an engineer for ABB and have not seen the damage. I wish there was better info from HAL on this as there is allot of speculation right now. In my experience a little information can be a dangerous thing because it leads to speculation and feeds uneasiness.

 

The "haul out" mentioned is a new one to me. Sounds like a drydock after the Mexico season, who know at this point

[grandma bev]

Can you imagine the logistics of "turning this cruise OFF" beforethe 28th???

 

Of course, this is our FIRST cruise, and thankfully we live in San Diego. I am only mildly concerned, though. The only precautions I will take are to take 12 bottles of wine, instead of 6!! It helps not to fly in!

 

I must say, it is truly hard to believe that "nothing" has been repaired since the world knew a week ago of that pending Baja hurricane and the ship went knowingly without change of course.

 

Wish me luck!

 

Rocosd:

Luck is not needed, IMHO.

We'll be just fine. Anita (our expert hostess) is on the ship now working out details for our cruise and the following week with Dave Koz and friends. Heck, if they want to stay at the pier in San Diego for a week, that would be fine with us! The music is THAT GOOD. We've been on many of these jazz cruises run by the same travel agent and her staff. You'll have a blast. And HAL ships are wonderful.

Bev and Dale

[San Diego Cruzer]

I wrote HAL yesterday expressing my concern and inquiring about the Oosterdam azipod problems and when it would be fixed since I am cruising in January. Here is their response:

 

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the ms Oosterdam departing January 13, 2007.

 

Please note although there was a malfunction of an azipod on one sailing which did have a modified itinerary, it has since been repaired. The ms Oosterdam has not changed her itinerary for the January 13, 2007 sailing and is as follows:

 

0 San Diego, California 5:00 pm

1 At Sea

2 Cabo San Lucas, Mexico 1 8:00 am 6:00 pm

3 Mazatlan, Mexico 8:00 am 6:00 pm

4 Puerto Vallarta, Mexico 8:00 am 10:00 pm

5 At Sea

6 At Sea

7 San Diego, California 7:00 am

 

Holland America Line's new As You Wish dining program gives guests the

flexibility to dine when and with whom they wish anytime between 5:30 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. in the Main Dining Room. As You Wish dining works, wherein guests may make reservations onboard if they prefer, or simply arrive with their party anytime during the hours the Main Restaurant is open.

 

If you have additional questions or need more specific information regarding As You Wish dining, please contact our ship services department directly at toll free 1-800-541-1576.

 

 

I find your HAL response very odd, since we have booked on the same cruise, 1/13, and I emailed HAL regarding the new dining option making certain we wanted no part of it. Here is the response I received:

 

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding dining requests onboard.

 

Although Holland America Line offers open seating for breakfast and lunch, there are four sittings for dinner. The trial of “As you wish Dining†is not in effect on your sailing at this time. On your cruise dinner hours are between 5:45 p.m, 6:15 p.m, 8:00 p.m, and 8:30 p.m. You may request any sitting, as well as table size, and with whom you wish to sit. All such requests should be made in advance of sailing. Requests for a particular time will be confirmed or waitlisted at the time of booking. Table numbers and table size are on request only and will be assigned by the Maitre d' on board. Holland America reserves the right to adjust times based on operational needs.

 

Research to your record shows that you are wait listed for the 8:00 p.m. dining, table for 6. "

 

I'm not certain who to believe. Seems like we cannot get a direct answer on the "repair" issues nor on the dining..

[bentpilot]

Fcorey,

Thanks for your informative reply. I freely admit to knowing nothing about the design and certification of cruise ships. Regarding the alphabet soup of regulating and controlling agencies who oversee cruise ship safety, did one of these controlling agencies physically inspect the Oosterdam with the single azipod to determine if it was safe? Or is the inspection more of one that is based off of simulator or design trials with the single azipod?

As far as the issue of comparing a twin engine airliner with a twin engine cruise ship; I believe the analogy, to a limited degree, is appropriate in regards to the options the Captain must confront if the second engine fails. Obviously, on the airliner, the option is grim, a forced landing. The cruise ship Captain faces the option of a ‘dead in the water’ cruise ship. This can’t be a good option! My analogy of airliner vs. cruise ship applies here (IMHO) because the FAA would never allow an airliner to take off with one engine. (By the way, all modern airliners, after reaching a certain speed (V1) can take off on one engine, prior to that speed take off is aborted). Apparently the controlling agencies allow cruise ships to.

And that’s my point, I guess I just have to accept that someone, somewhere says it’s safe to routinely sail a cruise ship with only one engine, when it was originally designed to sail with two. If the remaining azipod fails, pinning all my hopes on a fleet of Mexican tugboats coming to my rescue, is not that comforting.

And yes I know I have the option of canceling the cruise, with all the associated penalties. We have really been looking forward to this cruise! I hope I don’t sound too whiney, ignorant or trying to hype something that does not need to be ‘hyped’. Just curious...:)

Thanks!

[azsunshine]

Bent, I have to agree with you that I don't know that I would want to depend on a group of Mexican tug boats to resolve the dead in the water issue.

 

I would certainly be most concerned in the rough passage returning to San Diego, north of Cabo...there are some rough seas, and rocking and rolling. (even on Diamond Princess 2 years ago this November) This is our 4th cruise to the Mexican Riveria, and the return has been the same each time, regardless of cruise line or ship weight.

[barbon2]

Hi Everyone,

Picked up my docs for the Dec 2 Oosterdam today. Am NOT going to speculate about any dry docking of the ship or try to guess when or where this could occur. For all of us who have cruises booked, let's hope that we all get to go on our anticipated cruises.

Barbara

[fcorey]

Regarding the alphabet soup of regulating and controlling agencies who oversee cruise ship safety, did one of these controlling agencies physically inspect the Oosterdam with the single azipod to determine if it was safe? Or is the inspection more of one that is based off of simulator or design trials with the single azipod?

If the remaining azipod fails, pinning all my hopes on a fleet of Mexican tugboats coming to my rescue, is not that comforting.

 

Hey I understand your reservations and I am not trying to trivialize your concerns. In your comments you ask about testing. There have been at least 10 ships built on the hull design used by HAL for the vista class ships. The new Queen Victoria being launched next year from Cunard is a modified Vista/Spirit class hull.

The testing of the hull is done prior to building out at a test facility in Europe. They test for all sorts of things. When a ship is built the regulatory agencies are present at the shipyard and they inspect all along the way.

As far as engines go, there are 5 Wartsila diesel engines of several sizes in addition to the gas turbine. You could still run the ship with the failure of a turbine, or a couple of the diesels. Everything is electrically powered and there is redundancy built in.

That being said, the ship can run on one azipod, and quite comfortably at that, just at a lower speed. Is this optimal? no, not at all. Two allow for easier maneuvering, lower rpm while two running allows for a comfortable ride with little vibration. If one fails you have the second unit.

 

I was told that the team brought aboard had computers with them to run simulations etc. I believe that they were also checking out both port and starboard pods to insure that operating on one unit would be possible. I heard someone say that in the 200+ pods manufactured they had never seen this particular problem. Made me wonder who serviced the pods during the drydock, whether it was ABB or a 3rd party.

 

As for Mexican tugs, you arent too far from land at any time on that itinerary, and Mazatlan is a commercial port. Heck I waved at the tug operator on our way into port in Mazatlan from our aft veranda ;)

 

I cant imagine that they would run the ship on one pod for 5-6 months. They may be doing a complete replacement in April. Until better information comes out this is all just speculation. Our trip had 2013 passengers, that would be allot of law suits if what you are worried about occurred. However I want to stress that I dont think that the USCG or HAL would allow the ship to be sailing if the inspections revealed any real risks or dangerous conditions. When in doubt you could always contact the USCG and see if they have a comment. What ever you decide to do I wish the best.

[Brad1185]

HAL has Convinced me that they are not planning any cancellations in the near future

[SueOverend]

HAL has Convinced me that they are not planning any cancellations in the near future

 

Interesting - the 16th December cruise has disappeared from the HAL schedules. Hopefully this means it is full and not cancelled.

[fitters]

Interesting - the 16th December cruise has disappeared from the HAL schedules. Hopefully this means it is full and not cancelled.

 

The December 16th cruise is FULL. We are on that cruise and have talked to HAL representatives regarding other matters and was informed it's a FULL SHIP!

[hawgwildterry]

Does anyone have a inside HAL contact who can obtain the truth about the azipod repair situation? Anyone have a friend who is part of the ships command staff or a HAL corporate manager?

It's incumbent upon HAL to disclose to its passengers as soon as possilbe of a planned cancellation of a trip or two so that we have ample time to make alternative plans.

HAL management, if you by chance read this messsage board then do yourself a favor and let US know what your plans are. Don't allow speculation and rumors damage your reputation . Honesty still means something to the majority of us.

[TedC]

HAL has Convinced me that they are not planning any cancellations in the near future

 

 

Brad,

 

Please share with us how you were convinced.

 

(Unless, of course, your post was sarcastic. For selfish reasons I hope it wasn't.)

[GPoll189]

BentPilot,

 

Sorry I have to do this to you but as another pilot I need to clear up some things. First of all in your first post where you said if they took of the engine from the plane. The plane could not takeoff. If you are a real pilot and I bet you are you have to know that the areodynamic capablities would be very much hindered if engine was taken off the plane. Another thing a plane that has two engine can continue to fly with one engine but it would make the next possible airport for a safelanding, but once it is on the ground there is no possiblity that the plane would be able to get into the air with only one engine and be stable enough to fly. Take off is done with both engines in full throttle, if one engine stops working the take off is aborted, except when the plane has already rotated and taken off, at that time the plane would climd out on a one engine climb out speed and circle and land but this is all controlled.

 

But also being a captian of a boat you would know it is very possible to leave port with one engine. Alot of boats do this on a regular basis. It saves money and fuel when you run on one engine. Like everyone has said to you post if the USGC or any other of the governing bodies for the cruise lines said it was not safe they wouldn't have left port. But they did. Just suck it up and enjoy the cruise that you have coming up. If the other pod goes the ship still has enough power it can run everything. And you would have many more days at sea. Sorry for being so harsh but a boat is completely different than a plane.

[TedC]

Sorry, dreaded WSOD resulted in repeated post.

[RevNeal]

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding dining requests onboard.

 

Although Holland America Line offers open seating for breakfast and lunch, there are four sittings for dinner. The trial of “As you wish Dining� is not in effect on your sailing at this time. On your cruise dinner hours are between 5:45 p.m, 6:15 p.m, 8:00 p.m, and 8:30 p.m. You may request any sitting, as well as table size, and with whom you wish to sit. All such requests should be made in advance of sailing. Requests for a particular time will be confirmed or waitlisted at the time of booking. Table numbers and table size are on request only and will be assigned by the Maitre d' on board. Holland America reserves the right to adjust times based on operational needs.

 

Research to your record shows that you are wait listed for the 8:00 p.m. dining, table for 6. "

 

I'm not certain who to believe. Seems like we cannot get a direct answer on the "repair" issues nor on the dining..

 

Kristine, while off-topic I am interested in this e-mail you received. The Oosterdam most definitely IS the ship upon which "As You Wish Dining" (or whatever the current test is being called) is being tested. When I was aboard in January they were running a test of a new dining scheme with a different name ... a test that has now migrated to the Noordam. Perhaps someone who has been aboard the Oosterdam recently can tell us what the current test is? However, unless HAL plans on stopping the tests and going back to the "normal" dining schedule for your cruise, my suspicion is that someone in PR has pulled the wrong form letter to e-mail you. My suggestion is that you try contacting HAL again. Given past experience, you'll quite possibly get a different answer.

[Grumpy1]

Does anyone have a inside HAL contact who can obtain the truth about the azipod repair situation? Anyone have a friend who is part of the ships command staff or a HAL corporate manager?

It's incumbent upon HAL to disclose to its passengers as soon as possilbe of a planned cancellation of a trip or two so that we have ample time to make alternative plans.

HAL management, if you by chance read this messsage board then do yourself a favor and let US know what your plans are. Don't allow speculation and rumors damage your reputation . Honesty still means something to the majority of us.

Right now, HAL probably doesn't have all of the answers and can't say exactly what is going to happen. Based on comments that have been reported from those onboard, they are attempting to cut away the damaged windings. IF they can do this, they MAY be able to repair the wiring and energize the windings to one of the two tandem sets of windings that make up the pod. IF they can do that, they will have an operational pod, albeit only at partial power capability, and they could run in that configuration for several months. Notice the IF's and MAY's. How can anyone make a statement about what they are going to do until the damage assessment is complete? This is a previously unknown type of failure. There is no history to look at and say "OK, this is how we fix it." There are also questions about how quickly parts can be made available, and where, that cannot be fully answered until the full extent of the damage is determined. Every day that goes by, they are likely coming closer to answering these questions, but it is doubtful they are there yet. We need to be patient and let the engineers and the mechanics do their work.

[sail7seas]

Next weeks cruise is boarding and will be sailing. There is no reason to think it is being cancelled. It had been implied to me the azipod was fixed but now I am hearing otherwise.

 

[sail7seas]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fun barbeques and parties that were held on board. That ship was 'swinging'.

 

Or that is was a fabulous day in Puerta Val....... supposedly a bright, gorgeous day that surely had to have been enjoyed by the pax.

 

Or the party they held because of the missed port/hurricane....free drinks.

Why do we only hear the down 'stuff'? I don't understand why people don't tell us about the fun, extra things HAL does that they really don't have to do.

 

[herb]

I would think that those who have cruised numerous times before and have oodles of future cruises planned will look at this situation (shortened port times/possible cancellation) quite differently than those who will probably only take one cruise in their lifetime, because it's all they can afford.

[bentpilot]

BentPilot,

 

Sorry I have to do this to you but as another pilot I need to clear up some things. First of all in your first post where you said if they took of the engine from the plane. The plane could not takeoff. If you are a real pilot and I bet you are you have to know that the areodynamic capablities would be very much hindered if engine was taken off the plane. Another thing a plane that has two engine can continue to fly with one engine but it would make the next possible airport for a safelanding, but once it is on the ground there is no possiblity that the plane would be able to get into the air with only one engine and be stable enough to fly. Take off is done with both engines in full throttle, if one engine stops working the take off is aborted, except when the plane has already rotated and taken off, at that time the plane would climd out on a one engine climb out speed and circle and land but this is all controlled.

 

But also being a captian of a boat you would know it is very possible to leave port with one engine. Alot of boats do this on a regular basis. It saves money and fuel when you run on one engine. Like everyone has said to you post if the USGC or any other of the governing bodies for the cruise lines said it was not safe they wouldn't have left port. But they did. Just suck it up and enjoy the cruise that you have coming up. If the other pod goes the ship still has enough power it can run everything. And you would have many more days at sea. Sorry for being so harsh but a boat is completely different than a plane.

 

 

GPoll189,

 

I'm sorry I brought up the twin engine airliner vs. twin engine cruise ship analogy. It gets a bit more complicated then most folks on this board probably want to get into, after all this is a cruise ship discussion board and not an aerodynamics discussion board! However, if you re-read my post I was speaking to the single engine take off capabilities of a modern twin engine airliner, not a light piston powered twin engine GA airplane. Again, all modern twin engine airliners can take off with an engine failure (it's a certification requirement at V1). But I digress...

 

I think it is clear to anyone reading these 100 plus posts that we all are interested in the same thing ... going on the cruise that we have all been collectively getting more and more excited about as our individual cruise gets closer. When anything that might threaten the possibility of that cruise occurs (hurricane, azipod failure, etc.) all we can do is hope for the best.

 

I posted to these boards to try and receive some honest, non corporate type (HAL) answers to questions that, in my experience, were weighing on me. I appreciate FCorey's answers to my questions, as they were informative.

 

Once we all get on the cruise, stop by the bar, and I'll buy the first round and we can debate aerodynamics all day long. Until then, blue skys! :)