Saga Rose Greenland Voyager August 2007

[Aussie Gal]

Ruby,

 

We always fly at least 20-24 hours to get to our cruise ships as they always leave from ports on the other side of the world.

 

We are flying to Tahiti next Sunday and that will be the shortest flight we have ever had to board a ship, around 13 hours from home via Sydney.

 

Returning from Honolulu, it will be a 14 hour trip until we touch down in Melbourne.

 

Jennie

[Saga Ruby]

Hello, Jennie. Are those 20-24 hours flights in one leg or several legs? I have spent literally days in transit from Dallas to Tassie, Dallas to Sydney, Dallas to Auckland, Dallas to Hong Kong.

 

I certainly understand your comment about "the other side of the world." I always wind up changing planes in Los Angeles, no nonstop flights from Dallas to your side of the globe so I feel your pain. Which gets us back to the advantage of living on a coast, close to a major port.

 

I'm sure you're excited about your Tahitian cruise. Have a wonderful time!

 

Happy sails!

Ruby

[Saga Ruby]

Ah, the dreaded duplicate post!

[Kapricorn]

Hi to all! I'm back after a nice cruise to Alaska aboard the Infinity.

 

While strolling through Juneau, I passed a bookstore and my eye was caught by one of the books in its display window. It is a glossy edition of "Luxury Liners: Life on Board" by Catherine Donzel. I immediately went in and bought it, as it was the only copy in that shop. Have you heard of this book? It is profusely illustrated with interesting photographs, a majority of which I have never seen before.

 

Regards,

Donald.

[dougnewmanatsea]

The name of that book sounds vaguely familiar though the author's name doesn't.

 

Perhaps I have seen it in the bookshop on QE2 or QM2 (where the prices are too high for me to buy anything).

 

Myself I have just returned from a most delightful cruise aboard MARCO POLO. The day after I returned NCL announced the ship has been sold! I now wait in suspense at news of the new owners as, rather oddly, this has not been announced yet and neither has the future of the Orient Lines brand.

 

It is very sad as she is a wonderful little ship, really not that different from the Saga ships aside from the age of (some of) the passengers ;) .

[Saga Ruby]

I am intrigued by the sale of the Marco Polo to parties unknown. I see some speculation that she will go to Discovery.

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if she went to Saga Cruises which will need to replace Saga Rose (sniff! sniff!) in 2.5 years. Saga is quite a popular cruise line and having another ship in their "fleet" would be a plus. Since patience is a virtue, I will await further news from those "in the know." The silence on the part of the acquiring party is, indeed, puzzling.

 

Welcome back, Donald. I hope your cruise was a good one. I am curious about your floatplane flightseeing tour over Misty Fjord awhile back. Did you feel like you taxied forever on the water? I was watching floatplanes in Alaska and it seemed as though they taxi to rise on their pontoons, then put the pedal to the metal to get up to speed to rotate up off the water. Thoughts?

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Hi, Doug!

 

Sounds as though we both enjoyed our cruises last week! I hope that the Marco Polo has been bought by a reputable company and will be treated decently in her last years. I remember when she first appeared as the Aleksandr Pushin and was mentioned in the travel section of newspapers.

 

The book was originally published in 2005 in Paris as Paquebots, and translated to English and published in the USA in 2006. The price is $50. A lot of the photographs are from someone named Marc Walter (perhaps a collector). Have you heard of him? I haven't.

 

Donald.

[Kapricorn]

Hi, Ruby -

 

Yes, my cruise was a good one. There was a great variety of weather, ranging from poolside sunburn conditions to five-layer-clothing at chilly Hubbard Glacier. I brought more clothes for Alaska than I did for longer cruises along the Mexican Riviera!

 

Yes, indeed, the floatplane seemed to have taxied "forever" and I am not sure why. Perhaps the pilot was testing all of his instruments or getting the feel of the water. Tides might make a difference. When the pilot was ready, he pressed his foot to the pedal and off we bumped and rocked for a bit across the water. I don't know at what point he decided that he was ready, but he lifted the plane gradually inch by inch until we were off the sea and soaring into the blue yonder. It was exhilarating.

 

Donald.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I am intrigued by the sale of the Marco Polo to parties unknown. I see some speculation that she will go to Discovery.

Unfortunately I can now officially deny that rumor, as much as I wanted to believe it myself.

 

The strongest rumors seem to be that she will go to a German operator, probably either Phoenix Reisen or Transocean Tours. I guess I will have to learn German now, they seem to be the only ones left with a nice variety of mid-sized ships with reasonable fares ;) !

 

(By the way, Transocean chartered SAGAFJORD in 1997 - the year in between her Cunard and Saga careers - and called her, paradoxically, GRIPSHOLM! This was because they had originally planned to charter REGENT SEA which was originally the GRIPSHOLM and they planned on giving her back her original name. Then Regency went bankrupt and the charter went on with a different ship - indeed, GRIPSHOLM's top one-time competitor - but the same name...)

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if she went to Saga Cruises which will need to replace Saga Rose (sniff! sniff!) in 2.5 years.

It would be interesting indeed but I think they have set their sights on PRINSENDAM... Though for the long term they are also apparently looking at newbuilds.

 

MARCO POLO is not quite up to the luxury standards of the Saga ships (many fewer suites, generally smaller/plainer cabins, and she is a two-seating ship) but is nonetheless a lovely vessel. I would really like to see her as part of their Spirit of Adventure division especially as the minimum age there is only 21 ;) ... That is just a pipe dream though.

 

My guess is she will go the Germans though I thought it would be Discovery (wishful thinking?) until, of course, I asked them and got the unfortunate negative answer.

 

The whole thing about the new owners not being announced, and the future of Orient Lines not being announced, is just so incredibly odd I don't know what to think!

[Saga Ruby]

Donald mentioned the golden age of aviation back in the 60s which got me to musing. This thread has talked so much about days gone by of ocean travel and that many of us miss those agreeable days and those classic ships. I also miss the comfort and sophistication that used to create such an cordial atmosphere onboard airplanes.

 

A few years ago, I visited the C.R. Smith Aviation Museum in Fort Worth, located at the corporate offices of American Airlines. "CR" was the linchpin chairman of AA many decades ago and his impact is memorialized at the museum by excellent multimedia displays of the golden age of aviation.

 

The aviation museum is built around a real DC-3 which is displayed proudly in a rotunda, facing out through full-length windows, and is open to visitors. It is quite a sight to round a corner and pop out into the rotunda where a glistening star of yesteryear sits proudly, seemingly ready to take flight.

 

Visitors are allowed to board the aircraft, so, for old times’ sake, I clambered aboard the plane and took a seat. I was stunned to realize how comfortable the seats were - seat cushions crammed with springs, comfortable spacing of the individual seats (2 and 2), room for full armrests on each seat. Yes, you have to walk "down" the aisle as the DC-3 is a tail dragger, but, for long flights, I wish I had those DC-3 seats instead of the "rats in a cage" seats on domestic or overseas flights.

 

As a child, I didn’t appreciate the "luxury" of those old planes. One memory I retain is that my father insisted on presenting my mother, my sister, and me with huge orchid corsages for our flights, so every time we turned our heads to chat, we got a mouth full of orchid.

 

In looking over my shoulder at so many flights on the DC-3, I have fond memories of the struggle to get out of a tilted aircraft to reach the exit door. I clearly recall the first time I boarded a plane and walked "straight and level" down the aisle to my seat. At the time, a very peculiar feeling.

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Ruby, that is exactly why I must fly First Class on air travel! First Class nowadays is equal to Economy Class several decades ago. On recent Air Canada Jazz flights between Vancouver and San Diego (where I embark on Mexican Rivera cruises) I looked aft and saw people crammed 4 abreast in "rat cages" in the tiny fuselage in CRJ (Canada Regional Jet) commuter aircraft. Using the First Class washroom, I could not even stand upright in the tiny cubicle. I had to be a contortionist. This is why I am reluctant to undertake lengthy flights. It's simply no longer enjoyable.

 

I don't think that I've been on a DC-3. My earliest recollection is on a North West Central Airlines Convair 440 in 1959, when I accompanied my mother to her studies at Ohio State University in Kent. The aircraft flew low, we enjoyed nice meals in comfortable seats, and looked out through the big windows at the scenery below us - we could see people outside their homes looking up at us (even housewives hooking up their washing on clothes lines). Nowadays we are six miles up and don't see much.

 

Back then, airports were not busy. People always dressed in their Sunday best (especially you with your corsages!). Stewardesses with their jaunty caps greeted us and marked our names off on passenger manifests in their clipboards (usually 30 to 50 passengers). Relatives or friends crowded to the aircraft to see us off. We had a choice of meals. Nobody invaded my private space with wands to detect bombs or guns when the lights flash on just because of a metal clip in my belt or wallet. Nowadays with 300- or 500-passenger aircrafts the airports seem like bustling Greyhound bus terminals. :(

 

Donald.

[Druke I]

I've only flown once on a DC-3 (C-47), from Oakland CA to Reno NV,on a gambling junket, back in the 1960s. Considering its age, it was quite comfortable.

 

Uncomfortable was an USAF C-124 (?), the Globemaster I, a four engine double decked transport, with aluminum tubing/canvas webbing seats. Flew in that from Tachikawa Japan to Kadena Okinawa, June 56.

 

Perhaps the most comfortable, best riding of the prop planes was the Lockheed Constellation. Flew in one of USN's, from Hickam Field, Territory of Hawaii, to Tachikawa Japan, with a refueling & meal stop at Midway Island, also in June 56.

[Saga Ruby]

This is so much fun, Remembering When. Now y'all have me trying to get my aviation memories straight. I know my family flew from Bermuda to NYC on the 1st turboprop flight off the island. My father thought it was a Big Deal - all I remember is the lady sitting next to me, chatting the entire flight, and I never heard a word she said. It's like the DC-3 - I choose to remember the comfy interior and forget the roar of those engines.

 

Anybody? I think the original 707s were either props or turboprops, then we finally got to the 707c which was pure jet, at which point my father was in pure heaven. The sky was literally the limit.

 

We have flown in almost every commercial aircraft available up until now. I've ridden in a Sikorsky helicopter from Brussels to Paris, a blimp over Miami (talk about a bouncy ride from the hot air and winds rising from the coastline!), four hours in a chopper over the Great Barrier Reef, a Pitts 2SB, a Great Lakes (aerobatic planes) - Donald, you wouldn't like those last two!

 

Can anybody tell me when the pure jets became commercially viable?

 

Ruby

[dougnewmanatsea]

The first true commercial jet (not turboprop) was the Comet in 1952. It had to be withdrawn from service because of fuselage cracking problems. The cracks were around the rectangular cabin windows. It was replaced by the safe but still commercially unsuccessful Comet 4 which had round windows that were much stronger. (This is the same reason ships have round portholes - well, modern ships still mostly have windows since we now have much stronger glass, but not down by the waterline where strength remains really critical.)

 

The original 707 was also a turbojet and entered service in 1958. It is considered the first commercially successful jet.

 

Modern jets are turbofans. A turbofan engine is like a turbojet with a fan added to it. Most of the air that goes through the fan bypasses the combustion chamber, whereas in a turbojet it all goes into the combustion chamber.

 

The first commercial jet with turbofans was the 707-420 which entered service in 1960. This was specially made for BOAC with Rolls-Royce Conway turbofans, the first turbofan engines in the world. This was shortly followed by the -320B which had Pratt & Whitney turbofans and became the industry standard long-range aircraft until the 747.

 

Over time engines have been developed with much more of the air being bypassed; these are called high-bypass ratio turbofans and almost all modern commercial jets have them. The first commercial jet with them was the 747-100 in 1969 and by the 1980s they had become commonplace on jets of all sizes. Aside from some Soviet/Russian designs every brand-new commercial jet design from the 747 on has had high-bypass engines. High-bypass jet engines look much shorter and fatter than the long, skinny low-bypass ones you see on older planes (now mostly gone in developed countries, where they don't meet noise restrictions).

[Kapricorn]

Michael, I think that the Constellation is among the most beautiful commercial aircraft ever designed, along with the Boeing 707. I've never flown on a Constellation, though.

 

In August 1964 my parents and I flew home from Paris on an Air France 707. I was scared because another Air France 707 had crashed there two years earlier, with the loss of all those people from Atlanta. I insisted that we sit in the very last row of seats.

 

During the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s airline crashes were a regular occurence. I'm glad that it's much safer nowadays. However, despite that fact, I don't like air travel as it is now.

 

Ruby, please give me credit for a little bit of adventurousness. At least I would ride the roller coaster. ;)

 

Doug, I am impressed with your knowledge of aircraft engines!

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

At the tender age of 20, Host Doug is a fine reseacher of all things maritime, and now aviation! I know he will miss a cruise experience on the Saga Sisters due to his age, although his recent cruise on the Marco Polo must have been a good substitute.;)

 

Doug inspired me to do my own research and the Smithsonian NASM has a brilliant article about the "Dash 80" which became the commercial 707. I had forgotten that the test pilot, on a demo flight to a crowd, barrel-rolled the aircraft out over a lake to the delight of the crowd and the shock of Boeing officials. You can find that article at

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/boeing_367.htm

 

Ah, the Connie. Even as a young kid, when we walked out onto the tarmac toward the airstairs, I was intrigued by the triple tail of the Connie. None of us passengers were in a hurry to board - we all wanted to enjoy the unique design of the aircraft.

 

Donald, you had me smiling about the roller coasters. After flying aerobatics with Charlie, I no longer had an interest in amusement rides. I was so lucky to have the opportunity to fly in the aerobatic planes. Charlie would call the FAA to clear an "aerobatic box" over a quiet airfield in far north Dallas and up we would go.

 

The Great Lakes is an open cockpit biplane and quite powerful, almost as much as the Pitts. When we were executing our aerial maneuvers and were upside down in 4-point and 8-point rolls, I would rise about one inch off the seat and it was a great thrill. "Cropdusting" over pasture land at sunset - finest kind!

 

Druke, when you were in the Globemaster, were you able to see out? I’ve heard that many military aircraft have or had no windows. I don’t think I would like that.

 

Ruby

[Druke I]

The Globemaster had small, porthole-like windows, but seated in the tubing/web seats, very difficult to be in position to see out.

 

The Navy Constellation we were on, as well as an Air Force C-54 (DC-4) had airliner style seats, albeit facing backwards, and both were fitted to passenger plane standards (at that time, under Military Air Transport Service, or MATS).

[Kapricorn]

Michael: is there a particular reason why seats face backwards on the Navy Constellation and Air Force DC-4? If it is for safety reasons, why don't they do the same on commercial airliners?

 

Ruby & Doug (& any others): I've attached a scan of the cover of Luxury Liners, so that you will know what to look for next time you're in a bookstore. The jacket said that the photograph on the cover is that of the France, leaving Le Havre on her way to New York "in 1912." The fashions of the crowd looks more like from the Roaring Twenties, though.

 

Donald.

[Druke I]

In the 50s, MATS planes had the seats backwards - and they did say for safety reasons, particularly if they had to ditch at sea.

 

I don't have a clue why civil aircraft don't, other than many people claim that riding backwards increases their nausea level. I also don't know if military transports, passenger version, still ride backward. Most of what MATS used to do has been contracted out to the civilian market. MATS now has another name, which escapes me at the moment.

 

The Globemaster I that I cited had the seats arranged for paratroopers and/or infantry, and you rode sideways on tubing/webbing seats not built for comfort!

[Kapricorn]

Michael, during take-offs, wouldn't occupants in backwards seats be tilted against their seat belts, instead of being gently pressed into their seats? Perhaps that is the reason for seats facing forward on commercial airliners.

 

I suppose that sideways seats on the Globemaster I would maximize troop capacity.

 

Donald.

[Druke I]

Yes, riding backwards meant you did not press against the seatback during take-off - but those old prop planes did not climb out nearly as steeply (usually) as do the jets.

 

I suppose that is but one of many oddities. One I have never found the answer to is why does the pilot in command in an airplane sit in the left seat, but the pilot in command of a helicopter sit in the right seat? I suppose it might have something to do with the collective and other controls unique to a chopper,, but no pilot I have ever asked has confirmed that!

[Kapricorn]

Michael, I had absolutely no idea that pilots in command on helicopters sat in different seats than those on airplanes. Gee, I am learning new things every day, even after several decades! :)

 

Thanks for the information.

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

I have received my Saga Rose shore excursions book and two of the island ports are marked as having "a strong recommendation for insect repellent." It's really a hoot to read about the 6 ports we will visit on an 18-day cruise. Teeny tiny little islands with the "big" port being Reykjavik with a population of 115,000.

 

I must say that Saga Cruises does a fine job with their shore excursion books - carefully detailed notes about "200 steps down to the wood-carver's house" or "climb a tall vertical ladder from the quay to get to the ruins, walking over hilly uneven ground." With a pax list of 50+ years old, the cruise line is crystal clear about physical challenges.

 

I know from personal experience on Saga Ruby that some of the Brit passengers enjoy nature hikes at the ports and, sure enough, hikes are offered at several stops. In Longyearbyen in Svalbard, the hiking guide carried a rifle in case of polar bears and the hikers were gone for 3 hours.

 

The one thing the Vikings didn’t plan for in Greenland was tourists scrambling up hillsides to view well-preserved stone ruins of houses and archeological digs which predate the Pyramids. A hand-carved stone staircase would have made things so much easier for us. However, Saga passengers consider that a mere bump in the road, certainly not a deal breaker.

 

I did take note in the brochure that Saga draws the line at letting passengers scramble around icebergs in Disko Bay which is far up the northwest coastline of Greenland. Oh dear. That would have been my first choice.

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Ruby: Now that you have your Saga Rose shore excursion books, you must be getting eager to step aboard! I like the idea of only six ports on a 18-day cruise, as I don't care for port-intensive cruises (ie, 10 ports in 11 days). I trust that you will have a good pair of shoes suitable for hikes in Iceland and Greenland.

 

Doug: I received "The Last White Empresses" book a few days ago and already am more than halfway through it. A most fascinating book! I've never seen photographs of the Empress of Britain in her incarnation as the Apollon, and I liked her blue hull and sheer gold line!

 

Also, I've mailed my subscription to The Ocean Liner Society and am looking forward to your article about the Victoria in their publication! You didn't answer my question as to why you chose that ship to write about. When I sailed on her in 1972, I had no idea that whe was a pre-eminent cruise liner.

 

Donald.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Sorry I missed your question Donald!

 

Why am I writing about this ship? Well, a few people said "I wish someone would write an article about the VICTORIA" and Clive was kind enough to volunteer to provide the photos. And then there is the fact that my dad took his first cruise aboard her in 1963. So there is a family connection there and I am naturally drawn to ships that sailed in by my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on.

 

She was certainly a very well-regarded ship - I guess she operated in what we would call the "premium" category today. In the 1960s the true luxury ships would have been the SAL and NAL ships (SAGAFJORD only, the previous ones not having been as luxurious). What we would today call the premium sector would in those days have been HAL, Home Lines and Incres, at least from New York. Of course Incres was much smaller than the other two (one ship!) but nevertheless they were all in the same category... One notch below the top. A decade earlier the "top" would have been CARONIA but by the mid 1960s the Swedes and Norwegians had pretty much taken that market for themselves and this continued more or less until the late 1980s when the Japanese broke in with Crystal and then in the 1990s the Italians with Silversea and so on. The only company, as far as cruises are concerned, that has really been going at it steadily for decades on end is HAL - they have of course grown but they have pretty much maintained the same position in the market, a nice upper-middle priced product. There you have another company with a big sentimental connection since my grandparents have been pretty loyal HAL passengers for about 50 years!

 

I am very pleased that you are enjoying "The Last White Empresses". It is really an excellent book, as is just about everything Clive does. I most certainly agree with you about APOLLON in blue - I never saw her in person that way but at least in the photos she looks great. Interestingly there are some ships that clearly look much better with dark hulls or with light hulls but in her case she looked great both ways!

 

My friend Peter Kohler still wishes Polish Ocean Lines had bought her in the late 1980s (something they considered but rejected). I don't know if you are familiar with POL's livery - black hull, white superstructure, buff funnel plus a lot of "decoration" in gold - but she would certainly have looked striking in it.

 

I do hope you also enjoy your OLS membership - well, I'm sure you will as Sea Lines is really lovely. The VICTORIA article should be in one of the next few issues I'm not sure just when as it's not finished yet (!) and of course it has to be edited etc. One thing to keep in mind with Sea Lines is that your subscription just covers costs (to be honest I don't even know if it covers the costs). All the writing, editing, photography, design etc. is done for free. On the positive side that means no deadlines which in turn means in my case it takes forever for anything to get done ;) .

 

Once the VICTORIA article is finished I hope to do a MARCO POLO one - not really a ship review (which should be launched by Cruise Critic next week, by the way) but a history of the ship. The reason for that is of course self-explanatory as that particular ship has really won a place in my heart.