Dining Room Attire Thought

[lysolqn]

Right, everyone follows every rule and suggestion. That's why there is hardly a need for police or security any longer.

 

Come on back to reality now.

 

I don't think there is anyone out there who doesn't fudge about with laws, rules and suggestions to suit their own purposes.

 

You've hit the nail on the proverbial head but what you fail to acknowledge is the hypocrisy involved in "fudging" for one's own purposes. Sure, we all do it all the time - but then we all sit in judgment of others who "fudge" for their own purposes particularly when those purposes aren't in line with our own thinking. When something is important to someone or affects someone personally (like the dress code or hogging chairs poolside), it's a "rule" or a "policy" which that someone believes should be respected by everyone else. But should something not sit well with someone or not further someone's own agenda (like the dress code or hogging chairs poolside),it's simply a "suggestion" which that someone believes can be ignored. Interesting.

 

With respect to Princess' published info re onboard attire which you can see quoted in the previous post, it clearly states, "There are two designations for dress codes: Smart Casual and Formal." As a point of information, the dictionary defines "code" as "a systematic statement of a body of law; a system of principles or rules, especially one given statutory force." It defines "dress code" as "a formally or socially imposed standard of dress." Clearly, there's no way I would equate the dress code with rule of law. In fact, how others dress on a cruise has no impact on me whatsover - I could care less - but with all due respect, the dress code is what it is, no matter how anyone chooses to "fudge" it for his or her own convenience.

[chefim]

Don't see where is says "policy" or "rules":confused:

 

The word "code" which is defined on a subsequent post makes clear the idea of rule, law, or policy.

 

While I do not care what people decide to do, or how they dress, they should not for one minute make it sound like Princess suggests that it is OK to wear jeans.

 

"Not permitted" is clear as a bell to me.

 

Chef

[Clutterlady]

The word "code" which is defined on a subsequent post makes clear the idea of rule, law, or policy.

 

While I do not care what people decide to do, or how they dress, they should not for one minute make it sound like Princess suggests that it is OK to wear jeans.

 

"Not permitted" is clear as a bell to me.

 

Chef

 

I never questioned the point about wearing jeans! Just pointing out the "suggested" dress code is still not a rule or you will be thrown off the ship sort of thing:D

[lysolqn]

I never questioned the point about wearing jeans! Just pointing out the "suggested" dress code is still not a rule or you will be thrown off the ship sort of thing:D

 

Just because you won't be thrown off the ship for not complying with the dress code doesn't mean it isn't Princess' rule or policy.

 

In an earlier post referring to information re the dress code, Clutterlady wrote, "Don't see where it says "policy" or "rules,'" inferring that the absence of those terms is proof that the dress code is neither "policy" nor "rule." Well, nowhere does it say "suggested" either, so I guess that blows that theory, doesn't it?

[Seal]

Isn't it funny--not that long ago--only those with LOTS OF MONEY cruised and DRESSED FOR DINNER every night.

 

Now, we all can cruise and dress as nicely as we do when we go out for a nice dinner.

 

Even though we live in a very casual beach area--we know what is appropriate to wear for dinner at our restaurants down here--most are very casual--but, a couple of them expect that you would dress nicely to dine in their restaurant.

 

For instance, we'll be having dinner at a restaurant about a block and a half away--anything goes there,as far as clothing--good food--owned by 3 very successful surfers. Not an inexpensive restaurant--The wait staff wear hawaiian shirts

 

Two blocks away a wonderful restaurant--great PRIME steaks etc.--No shorts in here.

 

Anyway I think that Princess has a very easy to adhere to dining room clothing expectation.

 

Nancy:D

[bdjam]

As to your second point, there is quite a big difference about moaning about items that actually affect others, chairs, queues, nappies, etc., then the non-issue of what someone else wears to dinner. So unless what they wear has some sort of stench, it doesn't have any other affect on others. Unless of course it ruins their Ahm Bee Ance. :D

 

Cheers,

Peter

If what people wore to dinner was such a non-issue, these threads wouldn't become the heated debates that they do. While those who would prefer to dress casually on formal evenings seem to declare what others wear a non-issue, it doesn't seem to be so inconsequential when it means they are expected to wear something other than casual clothing.

 

I'll restate my point for emphasis - if you want a fine dining experience, demonstrate that. If you want to eat fast food in your jeans and Ts, then demonstrate that. What you wear is a measure of who you are - and the cruise lines, always looking at their bottom line, will change their product to suit what the majority of passengers demonstrate they want.

 

Just don't complain when lobster night turns into filet-o-fish sandwich night.

[Buddy604]

Isn't it curious that so many of the folks who choose to ignore the dress code (and can't understand why others fault them for that) are the ones who moan and groan the loudest when their fellow passengers choose to ignore other shipboard no-no's like hogging chairs at the pool, smoking in non-smoking places, saving seats in the theater, cutting in line at the buffet, diapers in the pool...?

I do understand the point you're trying to make, but I think it's important to differentiate between activities which have a direct physical impact on others versus those in which the impact is manufactured by the affected party.

 

For example, if someone hogs a chair, it may leave me standing without one. If a child in diapers is brought into the pool, I may be exposed to e. coli and other treats, etc.

 

However, if someone wears clothing that annoys me, I have to take ownership of that annoyance. The truth is what someone wears does not directly impact my ability to function unless I let it do so, thus I have to take responsibility for my own reaction and not blame it on others. The only direct impact on me is the emotional one I create.

 

The wryly amusing thing is that the people who are demanding that others respect their personal sensibilities about atmosphere and ambience are the same ones accusing the casual dressers of being all about "me, me, me." :D

[peterv]

Buddy you said that ever so nicely. Exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[rockinron]

we feel the same way about the dress code. as long as you are dressed nice there should be no need for a suit and tie . many men wear that attire every day to work and they want a break on vacation. as long as we are spending very good hard earned money we can wear anything presentable. i`ve had enough buffets coming from las vegas and we will be in the dining room every night. the suit does not make the man , esp the the cheap wrinkled ones. why would we want to bring another suitcase just for long dresses and tux???:)

[peterv]

If what people wore to dinner was such a non-issue, these threads wouldn't become the heated debates that they do. While those who would prefer to dress casually on formal evenings seem to declare what others wear a non-issue, it doesn't seem to be so inconsequential when it means they are expected to wear something other than casual clothing.

 

I'll restate my point for emphasis - if you want a fine dining experience, demonstrate that. If you want to eat fast food in your jeans and Ts, then demonstrate that. What you wear is a measure of who you are - and the cruise lines, always looking at their bottom line, will change their product to suit what the majority of passengers demonstrate they want.

 

Just don't complain when lobster night turns into filet-o-fish sandwich night.

 

BD, they become a heated issue because it is purely a matter of opinion, we have the traditionalists against the modernists.

 

As to a "fine" dining experience, I don't see how cruise ship food can be compared to anything other than banquet food, nothing "fine" about it, mass produced twaddle for the most part.

 

In any event your corollary doesn't really make sense. I eat at many well known restaurants while wearing jeans and t-shirts and have been for some time, and the food is still prepared to order, if they decided to eliminate the filet for bangers, the clientèle would look elsewhere.

 

If during a cruise, lobster night turns into filet-o-fish night, than the only reason it has done so is because the cruise lines have decided to save more money to cut the price even more to attract more people to fill ever more berths. Everybody wins, they get a cruise for $1 a night and have to pay for everything else. To state that the decline in food is because of what the patrons wear is a mighty big stretch.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[lysolqn]

The wryly amusing thing is that the people who are demanding that others respect their personal sensibilities about atmosphere and ambience are the same ones accusing the casual dressers of being all about "me, me, me." :D

 

Sorry, but you've missed the boat - if you'll pardon the pun. There are literally hundreds of posts about dress codes in many different forums involving many different cruise lines and few, if any, are ever about passengers "demanding that others respect their personal sensibilities about atmosphere and ambience." The issue is about passengers ignoring the policy, rule, suggestion, request, requirement (take your pick) of a particular cruise line that they comply with certain standards of appropriate dress should they choose to enjoy dinner in the main dining room(s). It's the "I'll do as I please" attitude of those who ignore the dress code that irks some. It's wrong to put those who comply with what is asked of them in the same "me, me, me" category as those who thumb their nose at what is asked of them. Does rude strike a bell or does rudeness no longer matter?

[chefim]

we feel the same way about the dress code. as long as you are dressed nice there should be no need for a suit and tie . many men wear that attire every day to work and they want a break on vacation. as long as we are spending very good hard earned money we can wear anything presentable. i`ve had enough buffets coming from las vegas and we will be in the dining room every night. the suit does not make the man , esp the the cheap wrinkled ones. why would we want to bring another suitcase just for long dresses and tux???:)

 

As was stated in the previous post, you miss the point that is being made.

 

You say that you feel the same way about the "dress code", however you are not speaking about the Princess Dress Code, which was posted previously. That is the point that is being made. Princess has what they called designated dress codes for the different evenings in the dining room. The discussion was not about anybody telling you what to wear, but about what the cruise line themselves say is the requirement.

 

It is the very statement that you made, "as long as we are spending very good hard earned money we can wear anything presentable" that is the contention on this thread.

 

Princess does not state as part of its policy "those who spend very good hard earned money may wear whatever they think is presentable."

 

Folks do you not get that this is not about anyone caring what you wear, but that there is an obvious policy that some are choosing to ignore.

 

Chef

[lysolqn]

Folks do you not get that this is not about anyone caring what you wear, but that there is an obvious policy that some are choosing to ignore.

Chef

 

Well said. I guess some folks have a difficult time understanding that no one cares a fig about what they wear. It's their attitude that's difficult to digest.

[from the desert]

I've thoroughly enjoyed this debate and there are wonderful points on both sides of the issue. But, as always, I wonder how the 97% of passengers that sail Princess and do not participate in cruise critic feel.

 

I would surmise that a very small percentage of that 97% read the Princess guidelines or peruse their web site. Many vacationers travel in a heady state of oblivion and really don't care what all the paper work says.

 

Hence, the amount of jeans on board a ship, since that is the standard of dress for thousands of people. Hence, the casual attire on formal nights since that is the preferred style of dress for thousands.

 

Unless, in order to buy our ticket, we sign in blood that we will follow all of the guidelines and recommendations stated in the Princess literature it is very difficult for the cruise line to enforce these. I don't recall having to sign any pledge of obediance when I paid my deposit. If I did would someone please show me what I signed. Just wondering....

[Pam in CA]

BD, they become a heated issue because it is purely a matter of opinion, we have the traditionalists against the modernists.

IMHO, this is not about traditionalists against modernists but rather about whether one wants to abide by the recommended dress guidelines or ignoring them. What gets many people irked are the recommendations by a few to ignore the guidelines, they can get away with it. The implication is that it's their cruise and they can do what they want.

[peterv]

Well said. I guess some folks have a difficult time understanding that no one cares a fig about what they wear. It's their attitude that's difficult to digest.

 

I disagree with you, for the most part those that stick up for the dress code DO INDEED give a fig about what you wear. If it doesn't pass their approving glance, then it is off to the buffet for you. If they did not care it would never get a mention here.

 

We indeed take notice of the suggested dress and carefully proceed ahead dressing as nicely as we wish while deciding not to partake of the "fun" of dress up night.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[peterv]

IMHO, this is not about traditionalists against modernists but rather about whether one wants to abide by the recommended dress guidelines or ignoring them. What gets many people irked are the recommendations by a few to ignore the guidelines, they can get away with it. The implication is that it's their cruise and they can do what they want.

 

Are you telling me that you do not care what others wear and it is only about following the rules? I don't think you can say that.

 

Traditionalists only see the type of clothing worn, and decide that it doesn't suit the rules and since they follow the rules, everyone needs to otherwise they are irked by it. Whereas the modernists wear the clothes that they normally would wear, and don't care in the least what others are wearing.

 

Very few people wear a tux or suit to go eat dinner, why do people do this on cruise ships, tradition. The desire to imagine they are on a first class transatlantic crossing. Well the people that established that tradition are long dead and buried, so perhaps it is time to bury the tradition as well.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Ethel5]

we feel the same way about the dress code. as long as you are dressed nice there should be no need for a suit and tie . many men wear that attire every day to work and they want a break on vacation. as long as we are spending very good hard earned money we can wear anything presentable. i`ve had enough buffets coming from las vegas and we will be in the dining room every night. the suit does not make the man , esp the the cheap wrinkled ones. why would we want to bring another suitcase just for long dresses and tux???:)

 

If you want to wear whatever you want because you're spending your "very good hard earned money, then why don't you choose another type of vacation that allows that? The expected dress is given to you before you board and by paying your money you are accepting those expectaions. BTW, I also pay "very good hard earned money" and I expect everyone to be dressed according to the guidelines set.

[Ethel5]

IMHO, this is not about traditionalists against modernists but rather about whether one wants to abide by the recommended dress guidelines or ignoring them. What gets many people irked are the recommendations by a few to ignore the guidelines, they can get away with it. The implication is that it's their cruise and they can do what they want.

 

I agree and further add that those who choose not to follow the guidelines come on these boards to get consent to wear whatever they want. If they were really comfortable wearing whatever, they wouldn't feel the need to validate their dress.

[lysolqn]

I'm not sure that when someone who ignores the dress code hits these boards it's to gain the consent of others to dress as he or she wishes. Perhaps it's just another way for such people to flex their muscle and display a bit of bravado.

 

When someone shows up in the dining room dressed in jeans, tee shirt, sneakers and a cap turned sideways on formal night, it speaks volumes more about that person than it does about those who respect the dress code. Just because you "can" do something, doesn't mean you "should."

[Buddy604]

Sorry, but you've missed the boat - if you'll pardon the pun. There are literally hundreds of posts about dress codes in many different forums involving many different cruise lines and few, if any, are ever about passengers "demanding that others respect their personal sensibilities about atmosphere and ambience." The issue is about passengers ignoring the policy, rule, suggestion, request, requirement (take your pick) of a particular cruise line that they comply with certain standards of appropriate dress should they choose to enjoy dinner in the main dining room(s). It's the "I'll do as I please" attitude of those who ignore the dress code that irks some. It's wrong to put those who comply with what is asked of them in the same "me, me, me" category as those who thumb their nose at what is asked of them. Does rude strike a bell or does rudeness no longer matter?

I do see where you are coming from but I'm surprised that you don't see the correlation to which I alluded.

 

In any tort issue surronding violation of "rules", there is an onus on the aggrieved party to show damages. The point I'm trying to make is that the only damages I can see are ones that the aggreived party allows themself to feel.

 

Having a woman in a blouse and capri pants or halter and jeans does not ruin the taste of my food. A gentleman in a nice pair of jeans and a polo shirt will not cause cork to break in my wine, and a well-behaved child in a pair of pressed shorts will not cause the legs to fall off my chair.

 

The only damange I will experience is if I let myself get annoyed and come to a slow boil. And that is my problem, not theirs.

 

So unless you can pinpoint a real damage that you can experience as the result of someone else's dress that is not related to how their clothing makes YOU feel, I have to stand by my opinion that it's those who are unable to control their own emotions and wish others to dress up who are the "me, me, me" ones. Just my opinion.

[Buddy604]

If you want to wear whatever you want because you're spending your "very good hard earned money, then why don't you choose another type of vacation that allows that?

Donna, the reality is that unless a cruise line chooses to enforce it's dress code suggestions, it is allowing people to wear what they want. So, in that case, a cruise vacation is entirely appropriate.

 

Another poster commented that, for them, it wasn't so much what people chose to wear as the attitude of entitlement they disliked.

 

I have to tell you, though, my sympathies are with the people who, like me, came to Cruise Critic before their first cruise, were verberly evicerated for asking dress code questions and ran off to buy clothing appropriate to the opinion of cruise critics, only to discover themselves one of only three people so attired on the whole ship.

 

The bald-faced reality is that the dress codes are not enforced on the ship except in extreme cases. In fact, when stopping by the traditional dining room to confirm a reserved transfer from anytime on formal night, the maitre d' tried to seat me at my table in casual wear telling me not to bother going back to my cabing to change (but I did anyway).

 

The attitude I don't like is the traditionalists telling first time cruisers on this board "Oh, no, you'll be turned away in jeans" or, my personal favourite "hey, if you can afford a cruise for you and your three young boys, you can afford a sports coat... or you can eat in the buffet."

 

Hyperbole? I wish. I've seen them both.:(

[spongerob]

In any tort issue surronding violation of "rules", there is an onus on the aggrieved party to show damages. The point I'm trying to make is that the only damages I can see are ones that the aggreived party allows themself to feel.

If this were actually a case to be argued before a judge, you wouldn't show up wearing what makes you feel comfortable, would you? You'd dress appropriately for the occasion. One, out of respect for the proceedings themselves, and two, to display an image of professionalism.

 

Of course, we're not talking about legal proceedings, this is something entirely discretionary. The two elements that I mentioned are still in play, respect, for both the passengers and hosts, and two, the image you wish to present to others.

 

We all have limits on what we consider appropriate for situations. Buddy, you analogies are well-crafted but still a poor form of argument. I think we know that there are limits - even the oft-maligned NCL Freestyle does have some limits written into their policy, after all. We're arguing about the middle ground. I've got an idea why this argument persists - regardless of the reality on board - and it has to do with how each of us as individuals see ourselves in society.

[lysolqn]

We all have limits on what we consider appropriate for situations.

 

Even those who thumb their noses at a cruise line's evening dress code have limits. Might they not be put off by a "gentleman" at their table showing up on formal night in a bathing suit, barefoot and shirtless? No law would be broken, no damages would be suffered, there'd be no direct adverse physical impact on others - just someone exersizing his right to spend his hard-earned money as he pleases. The fact is, we all have limits - even those who advocate for the "come as you are" evening dress code. The problem is, we all want to set the bar for others, some wishing to set it higher, others lower. Bottom line - the cruise line sets the bar for everyone so the standard is uniform and everyone is on an even playing field. In fact, the cruise line takes it one step further and provides an alternate dining venue for anyone who doesn't wish to comply.

[JustaTrace]

I can't believe I read this whole thread!!! :)

 

I have to agree with Buddy...

 

I am a first time cruiser. I joined the boards and started reading and it really SCARED me that my family and I would have to spend hundreds of dollars on new clothes for the trip. We went shopping and I bought some nice dinner clothes. I wouldn't say they are "sloppy" but they certainly aren't "fancy" Dress pants and some nice lace shirts and some casual shoes. I will bring some long dresses for formal night, but in all reality, in the long run, maybe I won't wear them...by the sounds of it here, everyone has a differing opinion about what is formal and what is not and what is appropriate and what is not.

 

My five year old son will be wearing black dress pants on formal night with a short sleeved dress shirt. But on other dining room nights, I plan on letting him wear dress cords, khakis and very nice t shirts. He also doesn't have "dress" shoes, I couldn't rationalize buying a 60.00 pair of shoes for him to wear to ONE dinner. He will be wearing his "formal" clothing on formal night, but he will have running shoes on with them. Really, is he going to be looked down upon because his SHOES are not the "proper" formal type? I hope not.

 

If anyone has a problem with what myself, my hubby or my son is wearing on a particular night or day, I hope they have enough decorum to keep their thoughts to themselves. For heaven's sake, it's clothes!!!;)