Nightline did cruise ship story

[ekeberg]

Last night there was a story on Nightline about unsolved crimes on cruise ships

and the hearing going on in Congress about it.

 

I sure do not understand why they are after the cruise industry? There is crime everywhere both solved and unsolved.

 

I have always felt very safe on a cruise ship and have even thought about taking a cruise all by myself.

 

Lynn

[dkjretired]

Last night there was a story on Nightline about unsolved crimes on cruise ships

and the hearing going on in Congress about it.

 

I sure do not understand why they are after the cruise industry? There is crime everywhere both solved and unsolved.

 

I have always felt very safe on a cruise ship and have even thought about taking a cruise all by myself.

 

Lynn

 

It all started with the Smith case where the honeymooner disappeared. They had hearings last year in some committee of the house that was chaired by a congressman from Conn. where Smith resided. It was very biased against the cruise industry.

[Captain Cosmo]

Hi Ekeberg - I agree that there is crime everywhere but I think the concerns in Congress and elsewhere come from the way in which crimes are investigated at sea. Cruiselines are hardly equipped to give a crime investigation the same level of attention to detail that would be more readily available onshore, and when in foreign ports they must often rely on the local police, who may or may not have the level of crime solving resources and expertise that we would expect at home. The most famous recent case - missing newlywed George Smith - was so badly handled that Royal Carribean wound up paying off his widow even though many law enforcement types who weighed in on the case felt she was somehow involved. She was witnessed physically assaulting her husband earlier in the bar, partying with some younger men, and by all accounts was really drunk and flirting. These same young men had been admonished earlier in the cruise for having sex with a female passenger in a hot tub and videotaping it. They were interviewed but to date there have been no charges brought. By settling with the widow out of court Royal Carribean also prevented her from testifying in the civil case that Mr. Smith's parents brought against the line, so there facts surrounding his disappearance that will never be known. So, I think there is some reason for concern about how these crimes are handled onboard. Many go unreported by the lines due to the negative publicity, and this is particularly true when the crime victim is a crewmember rather than a passenger. Like you, I do feel safe onboard, but I think the chances of something happening increase as it gets later in the evening, when alcohol is involved, or when a person is alone in some remote area of the ship. I don't think the crime is at a level that should make people stop cruising, but I do think the lines need to do a better job of investigating when a crime does occur. I do wonder if the fact that most ships are not registered in the U.S.A. impacts their obligation to investigate in some way, but I'll leave some definitive comment on that to those who know more about the Jones Act than I do.

[dkjretired]

Hi Ekeberg - I agree that there is crime everywhere but I think the concerns in Congress and elsewhere come from the way in which crimes are investigated at sea. Cruiselines are hardly equipped to give a crime investigation the same level of attention to detail that would be more readily available onshore, and when in foreign ports they must often rely on the local police, who may or may not have the level of crime solving resources and expertise that we would expect at home. The most famous recent case - missing newlywed George Smith - was so badly handled that Royal Carribean wound up paying off his widow even though many law enforcement types who weighed in on the case felt she was somehow involved. She was witnessed physically assaulting her husband earlier in the bar, partying with some younger men, and by all accounts was really drunk and flirting. These same young men had been admonished earlier in the cruise for having sex with a female passenger in a hot tub and videotaping it. They were interviewed but to date there have been no charges brought. By settling with the widow out of court Royal Carribean also prevented her from testifying in the civil case that Mr. Smith's parents brought against the line, so there facts surrounding his disappearance that will never be known. So, I think there is some reason for concern about how these crimes are handled onboard. Many go unreported by the lines due to the negative publicity, and this is particularly true when the crime victim is a crewmember rather than a passenger. Like you, I do feel safe onboard, but I think the chances of something happening increase as it gets later in the evening, when alcohol is involved, or when a person is alone in some remote area of the ship. I don't think the crime is at a level that should make people stop cruising, but I do think the lines need to do a better job of investigating when a crime does occur. I do wonder if the fact that most ships are not registered in the U.S.A. impacts their obligation to investigate in some way, but I'll leave some definitive comment on that to those who know more about the Jones Act than I do.

 

I agree with you completely, they have to do a better job of investigating incidents and also have to stop taking suspects and dropping them at the next port. In this day and age, people are expecting investigations such as on CSI which of course is a little far fetched but nevertheless they must do a thorough investigation. I watched those hearings at the time and they were very biased against the cruise industry, not taking into account the actions of the passengers such as in the Smith case.

[usha]

I think the Smith incident was less a case of crime on a ship,

and more a case of absinthe-mindedness. JMO...:rolleyes:

[dkjretired]

I think the Smith incident was less a case of crime on a ship,

and more a case of absinthe-mindedness. JMO...:rolleyes:

 

Good one...

[tuggers]

Cosmo - paragraphs please! You had something to say but it was very hard to read!:)

[hermang]

Hi Ekeberg - I agree that there is crime everywhere but I think the concerns in Congress and elsewhere come from the way in which crimes are investigated at sea. Cruiselines are hardly equipped to give a crime investigation the same level of attention to detail that would be more readily available onshore, and when in foreign ports they must often rely on the local police, who may or may not have the level of crime solving resources and expertise that we would expect at home. The most famous recent case - missing newlywed George Smith - was so badly handled that Royal Carribean wound up paying off his widow even though many law enforcement types who weighed in on the case felt she was somehow involved. She was witnessed physically assaulting her husband earlier in the bar, partying with some younger men, and by all accounts was really drunk and flirting. These same young men had been admonished earlier in the cruise for having sex with a female passenger in a hot tub and videotaping it. They were interviewed but to date there have been no charges brought. By settling with the widow out of court Royal Carribean also prevented her from testifying in the civil case that Mr. Smith's parents brought against the line, so there facts surrounding his disappearance that will never be known. So, I think there is some reason for concern about how these crimes are handled onboard. Many go unreported by the lines due to the negative publicity, and this is particularly true when the crime victim is a crewmember rather than a passenger. Like you, I do feel safe onboard, but I think the chances of something happening increase as it gets later in the evening, when alcohol is involved, or when a person is alone in some remote area of the ship. I don't think the crime is at a level that should make people stop cruising, but I do think the lines need to do a better job of investigating when a crime does occur. I do wonder if the fact that most ships are not registered in the U.S.A. impacts their obligation to investigate in some way, but I'll leave some definitive comment on that to those who know more about the Jones Act than I do.

1. RCCL nor any cruise line does not have Gil Grissom or Horatio Caine on board every ship and a s someone said in another post - the government of Botswana or even in say - Aruba may not have the talent or the resources for a CSI.

2. Too many people seem to feel that every crime aboard the ship can be solved before the cruise returns totheport of embarkation. They see it solved in an hour or less on TV and assume that the cruiselines have gazillons of dollars to spend.

3. Lawyers like Mr. Rivlin are just salivating to sue the cruise lines. The fact that RCCl settled with Jennifer Smith is not indicative of "they screwed up" but IMHO a desire to get out of the constant attention from the scandle sheets and tabloids. Personaly I think she contributed to her husband's demise.

[cruisintwinsmom]

I think the Smith incident was less a case of crime on a ship,

and more a case of absinthe-mindedness. JMO...:rolleyes:

 

Too witty!:p

[Captain Cosmo]

Cosmo - paragraphs please! You had something to say but it was very hard to read!:)

 

Hi Tuggers - point well taken (I'm prone to run-on sentences as well!)

[dkjretired]

1. RCCL nor any cruise line does not have Gil Grissom or Horatio Caine on board every ship and a s someone said in another post - the government of Botswana or even in say - Aruba may not have the talent or the resources for a CSI.

2. Too many people seem to feel that every crime aboard the ship can be solved before the cruise returns totheport of embarkation. They see it solved in an hour or less on TV and assume that the cruiselines have gazillons of dollars to spend.

3. Lawyers like Mr. Rivlin are just salivating to sue the cruise lines. The fact that RCCl settled with Jennifer Smith is not indicative of "they screwed up" but IMHO a desire to get out of the constant attention from the scandle sheets and tabloids. Personaly I think she contributed to her husband's demise.

 

There has to be an attempt by the cruise lines to do some type of investigation. This has been lacking in the past completely. As a retired Chief of Detectives, there are basic things that can be done without having a CSI on board ship which is a fantasy anyway. The days of having a passenger claim rape and then firing the suspect and letting him off at the next port are over. Although I agree that much of this has been overblown due to the Smith case and these silly cable "crime shows" such as Nancy Grace and Greta, there has to some middle ground where things are done properly.

[Captain Cosmo]

There has to be an attempt by the cruise lines to do some type of investigation. This has been lacking in the past completely. As a retired Chief of Detectives, there are basic things that can be done without having a CSI on board ship which is a fantasy anyway.

 

I agree. Its not feasible for the cruiselines to have the CSI people on board or to hold the ship in a foreign port for days while the local police investigate. But as Don is pointing out there's got to be a better effort than what we've seen in the past. I think we can all agree that the media seems fixated on the cruise industry so its no longer a "hidden" problem. If the industry can employ stand up comics, bands, dancers, etc then perhaps they need a better trained security staff on board, or at least some mechanism to bring such personnel onboard when a major crime occurs. They currently fly engineers in to meet ships when there are mechanical problems on board, so maybe a centralized security team is a possible solution.

[tuggers]

Maybe a detective onboard wouldn't be such a bad idea. Has Cunard done that in the past or is that just something I dreamed up? Having heard lately of conmen after the single ladies and thefts from safes, maybe it would be a good idea. Or at least, as I think Don said, a corporate investigator who could fly to a ship.

[tom_uk]

The most famous recent case - missing newlywed George Smith - was so badly handled that Royal Carribean wound up paying off his widow

 

From what I read, I thought the Smith case was excellently handled. Here's a link to the CruiseCritic page containing RCI's press release about the actions that were taken. As far as I'm aware, no-one has thrown RCI's account of the steps taken, or the timetable, into serious question. I don't see how much more could have been done, other than to cancel the cruise at the Turkish port and take witness statements from all passengers and crew.

 

The reasons for settling with the widow have much more to do with drawing a line under the incident than anything else. I'm confident that the settlement included a clause that she would make no further comment on it.

[dkjretired]

Maybe a detective onboard wouldn't be such a bad idea. Has Cunard done that in the past or is that just something I dreamed up? Having heard lately of conmen after the single ladies and thefts from safes, maybe it would be a good idea. Or at least, as I think Don said, a corporate investigator who could fly to a ship.

 

 

Each cruise ship could have Security Personnel who could be trained with the FBI or one of the many fine state agencies in basic criminal investigation. Its really not that difficult, the hard part is the actual hands on experience.

 

They could also have a team fly to areas where there is a problem and do a further investigation as well as getting the local authorities involved.

[dkjretired]

From what I read, I thought the Smith case was excellently handled. Here's a link to the CruiseCritic page containing RCI's press release about the actions that were taken. As far as I'm aware, no-one has thrown RCI's account of the steps taken, or the timetable, into serious question. I don't see how much more could have been done, other than to cancel the cruise at the Turkish port and take witness statements from all passengers and crew.

 

The reasons for settling with the widow have much more to do with drawing a line under the incident than anything else. I'm confident that the settlement included a clause that she would make no further comment on it.

 

Remember you are only reading one side of the story. There were some basic steps which could have been done initially with the scene. A crime scene once violated can't be returned to its original condition.

 

I think the reason for settling was to basically make the case go away. The biggest stink in this case was being made by the parents and the sister of the victim, who was an attorney. Since the widow was the only one with legal standing, they settled with her effectively leaving the others out in the cold. I am sure they are not thrilled with her.

[chessbriar]

Each cruise ship could have Security Personnel who could be trained with the FBI or one of the many fine state agencies in basic criminal investigation. Its really not that difficult, the hard part is the actual hands on experience.

 

They could also have a team fly to areas where there is a problem and do a further investigation as well as getting the local authorities involved.

In the case of the Smiths, the Turkish authorities investigated as well as people from the FBI who proceeded to the ship since they were American citizens.

 

The crime rate on a cruise ship is far lower than that of any major city in the US. Do you think these politicians should worry about their own cities before they worry about an industry who is much safer than their own cities.

[woodofpine]

That's the problem. The jurisdictional lines have traditionally been vague at sea - despite (primarily) US efforts to make itself the world's policeman. Otherwise, as non-governmental entities the lines have somewhat limited authority over passengers short of putting them ashore.

 

The Smith case - whatever its merits or demerits - raised the overall issue that the lines have no economic incentive whatsoever to act as a forensic investigative policing agency (it's not there business); keeping 'drunk and disorderly' pax and pilphering crewman at bay is tough enough. As the number of cruisers increases multifold in size as do the ships carrying them, the probability of serious crime increases; it is a tricky problem given the jurisdictional issues that DO NOT change.

 

If the Smith case did anything positive, it showed the lines what sort of publicity they want to avoid. A certain naivite undoubtedly existed among passengers about their security onboard. Nonetheless, one thing the lines don't want is a false sense of insecurity that might drive good potential pax away. Given that incentive, I'm remain more comfortable at sea than ashore.

[Pisces11]

Remember you are only reading one side of the story. There were some basic steps which could have been done initially with the scene. A crime scene once violated can't be returned to its original condition.

 

I think the reason for settling was to basically make the case go away. The biggest stink in this case was being made by the parents and the sister of the victim, who was an attorney. Since the widow was the only one with legal standing, they settled with her effectively leaving the others out in the cold. I am sure they are not thrilled with her.

 

You are so right about this. The only reason RCCL settled this case was because the parents had money and access to lawyers and the case was picked up by the cable networks. There has to be a better way to report crimes on board ships. Passengers also have to protect themselves. I grew up in a big city and I am use to looking all around me. I get very concerned when I see a child, or a young woman, walking down the often deserted hallways to their rooms without looking to make sure no one is behind them when they open their cabin doors.

[dkjretired]

In the case of the Smiths, the Turkish authorities investigated as well as people from the FBI who proceeded to the ship since they were American citizens.

 

The crime rate on a cruise ship is far lower than that of any major city in the US. Do you think these politicians should worry about their own cities before they worry about an industry who is much safer than their own cities.

 

Yes, these agencies did investigate but that does not mean that an investigation can't be started before the local agencies are able to get to the ship. Several people trained in what to do and more importantly, what not to do to a crime scene is easy to do. Every little bit helps.

 

Crime rates on ships are much lower in the general population however last year when this whole thing came up originally, it was an election year. I watched the hearing last year and listening to the congressman from Conn who obviously made it sound like the whole thing was the fault of the cruise line and no fault went to Mr. or Mrs. Smith who were from Connecticut.

 

Crime on cruise ships has the same potential for big ratings as does the norovirus and both in my opinion are related. Nothing like a good story about crime or people getting sick on a cruise ship.

[Sky Sweet]

From what I read, I thought the Smith case was excellently handled. Here's a link to the CruiseCritic page containing RCI's press release about the actions that were taken. As far as I'm aware, no-one has thrown RCI's account of the steps taken, or the timetable, into serious question. I don't see how much more could have been done, other than to cancel the cruise at the Turkish port and take witness statements from all passengers and crew.

 

The reasons for settling with the widow have much more to do with drawing a line under the incident than anything else. I'm confident that the settlement included a clause that she would make no further comment on it.

 

Hi Tom....Excellent post :)

[dkjretired]

That's the problem.

 

If the Smith case did anything positive, it showed the lines what sort of publicity they want to avoid. A certain naivite undoubtedly existed among passengers about their security onboard. Nonetheless, one thing the lines don't want is a false sense of insecurity that might drive good potential pax away. Given that incentive, I'm remain more comfortable at sea than ashore.

 

You are so right, I remember thinking shortly after the Smith publicity how quickly RC and Celebrity started to come out with press releases when something happened related to the ships. The unfortunate accident in Chile involving the deaths of several Celebrity passengers was handled very pro-actively by Celebrity and a couple of other things occurred during the year on ships which were a credit to both Royal Caribbean and Celebrity.

[Sky Sweet]

There has to be an attempt by the cruise lines to do some type of investigation. This has been lacking in the past completely. As a retired Chief of Detectives, there are basic things that can be done without having a CSI on board ship which is a fantasy anyway. The days of having a passenger claim rape and then firing the suspect and letting him off at the next port are over. Although I agree that much of this has been overblown due to the Smith case and these silly cable "crime shows" such as Nancy Grace and Greta, there has to some middle ground where things are done properly.

 

 

Hi dkjretired :)

 

Were you a chief of detectives in New York or New Jersey?

[dkjretired]

Hi dkjretired :)

 

Were you a chief of detectives in New York or New Jersey?

 

New Jersey not the town I live in.

[Sky Sweet]

New Jersey not the town I live in.

 

Thanks, dkjretired, for answering my question. I was curious because my husband was the Director of the New York City Forensic Lab (aka Crime Lab) during the seventies and eighties and he knows several people who held your position in New York.