Here we go...another "tipping" thread

[Sandytoes]

Why is tipping on cruise ships such an issue....:rolleyes:

 

For a land base vacation you would leave a 20% tip per meal to your waiters \ waitresses if you ate in a restaurant, had a porter carry your bags or had a room attendant help you with special services in a hotel. For the hotel maid you typically leave $5 per night, tip skycaps $1 to $2 per bag for carrying and checking your luggage and even valet service when you pick the car up.

The list goes on.

 

Tipping is a traditional part whether your cruising or having a land-base vacation.

And when you add it all up automatic tips are a whole lot less than we normally tip.

[happyscot]

Why is tipping on cruise ships such an issue....:rolleyes:

 

For a land base vacation you would leave a 20% tip per meal to your waiters \ waitresses if you ate in a restaurant, had a porter carry your bags or had a room attendant help you with special services in a hotel. For the hotel maid you typically leave $5 per night, tip skycaps $1 to $2 per bag for carrying and checking your luggage and even valet service when you pick the car up.

The list goes on.

 

Tipping is a traditional part whether your cruising or having a land-base vacation.

And when you add it all up automatic tips are a whole lot less than we normally tip.

 

 

No I don't. No I don't. No it doesn't. No it isn't. No they arn't.

 

I've been on, I don't know, 30 or 40 holidays, and only one of them involved dollars.

 

I haven't the foggiest idea what a "skycap" is and am therefore unlikely to give one money. Is it a big, floating hat?

 

The US is not the world.

 

Why don't you just pay all these people a proper wage?????? I'd need an accountant trotting along behind me just to keep track of which grovelling wretch I'd slipped a few pennies to and which I hadn't. It's SOOOOOOO weird. Just stop and think about it for a minute. It's like something out of a cartoon.

 

Imagine if they had the dignity of a proper wage, and looked after you out of professionalism and not the need to beg tips?

[AZbeachboy]

No I don't. No I don't. No it doesn't. No it isn't. No they arn't.

 

I've been on, I don't know, 30 or 40 holidays, and only one of them involved dollars.

 

I haven't the foggiest idea what a "skycap" is and am therefore unlikely to give one money. Is it a big, floating hat?

 

The US is not the world.

 

Why don't you just pay all these people a proper wage?????? I'd need an accountant trotting along behind me just to keep track of which grovelling wretch I'd slipped a few pennies to and which I hadn't. It's SOOOOOOO weird. Just stop and think about it for a minute. It's like something out of a cartoon.

 

Imagine if they had the dignity of a proper wage, and looked after you out of professionalism and not the need to beg tips?

 

Well said happyscot. If this is traditional, then lets change tradition. It has only been a few years that hotel maids expected to be tipped. Lets talk about service at many land based extablished.

 

Tradition at good resturants was that they had busers to take care of the dirty work. The waiter would only have a few tables, they were together and the waiter was always available.

 

They did not try to become your friends, just give excellent service. They did not try to invite themselves to join you (What are WE having for dinner?) I have had them sit down at my table to take my order and give small talk. Then when you want something they are hid out some where or they have table in another section and you cannot find them. I just want good service. For that I tip.

 

The tradition was 10%. An increase in prices meant wages increased. The the greed of NY unions crept in and they wanted 15%. Now they cry at only getting that and want more for less service. So, it has nothing to do with getting good service. They expect it just because there are there.

 

Employers should pay a fair wage, include it in the price and I will decided weather I want to pay that price or not.

 

I do tip for good service, but not a thing for bad service. Any yes when the service is particulary bad I go to the manager and explain why I did not leave a tip.

 

Another stupid question from service staff. I have a $5.00 check and I pay with $20.00 and they ask me if I want my change. I have had them actually throw the money back at me or give it all back in coins. Why, because I did not leave them a 150% tip?

 

Tradition! If more people protested we could get rid of this archaic method.

[Sandytoes]

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

skycaps are stationed right outside the Airport handling your luggage, tickets, etc.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

 

What's interesting about tipping is that how you tip can mean as much as the amount you tip. Some tippers, even if they're generous, put a damper on the exchange between them and the server. This happens when the tipper assumes an attitude of arrogance or disdain for the server: "Here, I've given you the money--now serve me." Instead, try to communicate in some subtle way (say, a smile and friendly, simple conversation) that you're grateful for this person's assistance, and you're acknowledging the value of his or her service by supplementing his or her income. This creates an air of mutual satisfaction and goodwill, as both parties have helped each other.

 

 

[Globaliser]

I sometimes wonder if we haven't been brainwashed here to some extent about tipping - or perhaps we've just grown used to it.

There is indeed an enormous culture gap between the US on the one hand, and Australia and New Zealand on the other, about tipping.

 

As a generalisation, in the US you're conditioned to believe that - however much you have paid for the service that you're getting - you are a bad person if you do not tip. There is an enormous amount of guilt laid on anyone who doesn't tip, plus they have to deal with the consequences of the disappointed expectations of those who would be recipients of the tips. (In other threads, we've discussed how the tips that are in effect required by the porters who handle your luggage at US ports basically amount to extortion, because of the implicit or sometimes explicit threats made to those who do not tip. Irrespective of what the highly-visible signs say about tipping being optional. That's the extreme case.)

 

But in Australia, one asks oneself whether one has paid a proper price. If so, the remuneration of the service staff is none of our business. It is not the job of the customer to make up for the failings of the employer, however good the employee has been. So there is no compulsion to tip and nobody feels bad or guilty about not tipping. A tip, if deserved and paid, is pure recognition not driven by any negative emotions like guilt or pity. And because this is what tips are seen to be, any pressure to tip is going to produce exactly the opposite reaction - "I might have tipped you, until you started looking for one".

 

I detect that in New Zealand, things are even more extreme. In a very egalitarian society, the act of tipping connotes many undesirable things about power gradients, superiority and subservience. So tipping (or attempts to tip) can positively cause offence.

 

The UK is somewhere in between the US and Aus/NZ - there are some places where there is a conventional tip. But IME it is often largely convention, so that it's just an addition to the posted price rather than a calculated method of thanking anyone.

 

The reason that the trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific tipping debates get so heated is because neither side thinks their way into the emotional infrastructure underlying the tipping or non-tipping practices of the other side. A good reason, IMHO, for staying out of the substantive debates. With which I bow out of this thread.

[AZbeachboy]

There is indeed an enormous culture gap between the US on the one hand, and Australia and New Zealand on the other, about tipping.

 

As a generalisation, in the US you're conditioned to believe that - however much you have paid for the service that you're getting - you are a bad person if you do not tip. There is an enormous amount of guilt laid on anyone who doesn't tip, plus they have to deal with the consequences of the disappointed expectations of those who would be recipients of the tips. (In other threads, we've discussed how the tips that are in effect required by the porters who handle your luggage at US ports basically amount to extortion, because of the implicit or sometimes explicit threats made to those who do not tip. Irrespective of what the highly-visible signs say about tipping being optional. That's the extreme case.)

 

But in Australia, one asks oneself whether one has paid a proper price. If so, the remuneration of the service staff is none of our business. It is not the job of the customer to make up for the failings of the employer, however good the employee has been. So there is no compulsion to tip and nobody feels bad or guilty about not tipping. A tip, if deserved and paid, is pure recognition not driven by any negative emotions like guilt or pity. And because this is what tips are seen to be, any pressure to tip is going to produce exactly the opposite reaction - "I might have tipped you, until you started looking for one".

 

I detect that in New Zealand, things are even more extreme. In a very egalitarian society, the act of tipping connotes many undesirable things about power gradients, superiority and subservience. So tipping (or attempts to tip) can positively cause offence.

 

The UK is somewhere in between the US and Aus/NZ - there are some places where there is a conventional tip. But IME it is often largely convention, so that it's just an addition to the posted price rather than a calculated method of thanking anyone.

 

The reason that the trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific tipping debates get so heated is because neither side thinks their way into the emotional infrastructure underlying the tipping or non-tipping practices of the other side. A good reason, IMHO, for staying out of the substantive debates. With which I bow out of this thread.

 

Good and insightful comments comments.

[CalCruzer]

Auto-tipping was probably set up because of the "cheapskates" who never tipped the staff. This way , they at least, get a fighting chance. I can not tell you how many times I have seen people remove the tips and then skip the last night in the DR so they do not have to face the people they stiffed. Believe me, the staff is told well in advance of the last night who has removed tips.

 

Think of it this way, if a ship sails half full (like that happens a lot) the wait staff gets less tips because they are doing a little less work. When the ship is full they make more money. If they were paid higher wages as some suggest, the cruise line would have to make up for the lack of passengers by charging more. The way it is now makes sense because it is basically a sliding scale. The staff is static (on all the time) so full or not full they are working.

You state "the staff is told well in advance of the last night who has removed tips". We always use personal choice dining so how could the staff possibly know who we are? No one asks our name or cabin number prior to being seating. I do not support auto-tipping and always have it removed. I do, however, tip all those who provide personal service including room service waiters, cabin steward, diningroom waiters, etc. We have seen this thread so many times and it will never change. I personally wish that they would just tack an extra $100 on the fare and end the whole issue. I mean, if you calculate $10.00 per person on a 10 day cruise it comes out to $100.00. I truly resent paying for my vacation and then being asked to contribute an extra $100 after the fact so the cruise line can save some money. Everyone just do what works for you and stop trying to make others agree with you position. It's like politics, religion, etc. it's not going to happen. Happy cruise!!

[happyscot]

Wow - where did all the people who can't play the banjo come from?

 

The cheap cheap bloke's gonna appear any minute...................

 

:D

[spongerob]

Imagine if they had the dignity of a proper wage, and looked after you out of professionalism and not the need to beg tips?

Now there is something I agree with.

 

These discussions would proceed more fruitfully if we all agreed that we agree on the basic premise. Your statement proves it - everyone should be properly and fairly compensated for the work they do. So there it is, through much toil and frustration, we've all arrived at the same place. Blood amazing! Who's for a pint?

[pipedreams62]

[spongerob]

As a generalisation, in the US you're conditioned to believe that - however much you have paid for the service that you're getting - you are a bad person if you do not tip. There is an enormous amount of guilt laid on anyone who doesn't tip, plus they have to deal with the consequences of the disappointed expectations of those who would be recipients of the tips. (In other threads, we've discussed how the tips that are in effect required by the porters who handle your luggage at US ports basically amount to extortion, because of the implicit or sometimes explicit threats made to those who do not tip. Irrespective of what the highly-visible signs say about tipping being optional. That's the extreme case.)

Absolutely correct. Even worse, we are expected to tip according to how much we spend, not the actual service rendered. It takes no more effort to bring me a tuna fish sandwich than it does to bring me a filet mignon. Yet I'm expected to provide much more for that filet even though it's the same distance from the kitchen. And honestly, the person who is most responsible for my satisfaction, the fellow who prepared the thing, probably doesn't see any of it.

 

And that baggage thing - that's a personal pet peeve of mine. You know those guys are kicking some of that back to their shop stewards just to make sure that continue to have the chance to earn triple time on a Saturday and make tons of tax-free loot on top of their mandated salaries. Grrrrr.

[AZbeachboy]

Absolutely correct. Even worse, we are expected to tip according to how much we spend, not the actual service rendered. It takes no more effort to bring me a tuna fish sandwich than it does to bring me a filet mignon. Yet I'm expected to provide much more for that filet even though it's the same distance from the kitchen. And honestly, the person who is most responsible for my satisfaction, the fellow who prepared the thing, probably doesn't see any of it.

 

And that baggage thing - that's a personal pet peeve of mine. You know those guys are kicking some of that back to their shop stewards just to make sure that continue to have the chance to earn triple time on a Saturday and make tons of tax-free loot on top of their mandated salaries. Grrrrr.

 

We are finally getting some understanding view points on this tipping threads. Thank you spongerob and globalister!

[AZbeachboy]

What's interesting about tipping is that how you tip can mean as much as the amount you tip. Some tippers, even if they're generous, put a damper on the exchange between them and the server. This happens when the tipper assumes an attitude of arrogance or disdain for the server: "Here, I've given you the money--now serve me." Instead, try to communicate in some subtle way (say, a smile and friendly, simple conversation) that you're grateful for this person's assistance, and you're acknowledging the value of his or her service by supplementing his or her income. This creates an air of mutual satisfaction and goodwill, as both parties have helped each other.

 

 

To assume that people who stay private are arrogant is a big assumption. Maybe the customer just wanted some privacy or had other things on their mind. Sometimes I carry on a conversation and sometimes I do not. Being pleasant and couteous is the important thing. To say please and thankyou, even when you have had to wait a long time to find them, is always called for. You do not have to be a diplomat to eat in a resturant.

And I did not have to yell to give my opinion here.

[MaryPoppinz]

Absolutely correct. Even worse, we are expected to tip according to how much we spend, not the actual service rendered.

 

Unless, of course, you are spending less than what is perceived to be a reasonable amount for that particular setting. If you're not drinking alcohol, if your meal is comped, if you linger....in those situations, it's not the actual service, it's not a percentage of what you spent...it's some other nuance that's almost impossible to calculate. :)

[Princess Patches]

Although auto tipping is a big improvement over the old system of stuffing wads of cash into the waiter's hand at the end of the cruise I too wish they would just add enough to the cruise fare to cover paying their employees a living wage.

 

Tipping is really out of control in the U.S. and has escalated in recent years. I went in to the corner market the other day and the cashier had a tipping jar on the counter. Now mind you she does not bag groceries. She asks you if would like a bag and then hands it to you to bag yourself. There are a lot of counter service places now that have tip jars. These are places where you order and pick up your food at the counter yourself. I went into a smoothie bar today where you order and pick up at the counter and there was a tip jar out. A restaurant I went to recently had written on the bill "mandatory 18% gratuity". A lot of places are now expecting 18-20% instead of 15%. I loved it when I lived in Europe and didn't worry about tipping. I think most people tip out of social pressure and guilt.

 

I am sure you Aussies and Kiwis will appreciate this. Professor Michael Lynn of Cornell University who has done numerous studies on tipping in a variety of cultures came to this conclusion:

 

"Comparing the types of services that were tipped in each country with personality tests that were given to people in those countries, he came to the conclusion that countries with more extroverted and neurotic people gave tips to the greatest number of services and also tipped the largest amounts (The U.S. was at the top of both of these categories). His theory was that extroverts are outgoing, dominating, social people and see tipping as an incentive for the waiter to give them extra attention. Neurotics are more prone to guilt and general anxiety, making them tip more because of their perceived difference in status between themselves and the server... In Australia and New Zealand tipping is frowned upon and virtually non-existent."

[smeyer418]

To assume that people who stay private are arrogant is a big assumption. Maybe the customer just wanted some privacy or had other things on their mind. Sometimes I carry on a conversation and sometimes I do not. Being pleasant and couteous is the important thing. To say please and thankyou, even when you have had to wait a long time to find them, is always called for. You do not have to be a diplomat to eat in a resturant.

 

And I did not have to yell to give my opinion here.

 

you see this is a yelling? it isn't CAPS which is yelling. The best service is attentive but unassuming. You don't have to even see someone to see the work is done(I love the people who say I don't tip the room steward because he/she never came and introduce themselves-who care as long as the cabin is maintained.)When I go to Australia or NZ I won't tip because I don't want to insult my hosts or show my ignorance but the reverse is true when the custom is to tip. You know- when in Rome do what the Romans do...

 

remember we are talking about 10 dollars per person per day not a thousand per day.

[Sandytoes]

I like to see just one penny pinching, cheapskate, non-tipping pax wait on tables morn, noon, and nite, for 7 + days, then at the end of the cruise, finds out that some one stiffed them....See how they would like it....:rolleyes:...:confused:...;)

Would they have a change in heart?

[smeyer418]

I like to see just one penny pinching, cheapskate, non-tipping pax wait on tables morn, noon, and nite, for 7 + days, then at the end of the cruise, finds out that some one stiffed them....See how they would like it....:rolleyes:...:confused:...;)

Would they have a change in heart?

no heart ==and they never would give good service....

[Sandytoes]

no heart ==and they never would give good service....

True.

 

Well trained service is not that simple.

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

How much do they value good service?

[AZbeachboy]

you see this is a yelling? it isn't CAPS which is yelling. The best service is attentive but unassuming. You don't have to even see someone to see the work is done(I love the people who say I don't tip the room steward because he/she never came and introduce themselves-who care as long as the cabin is maintained.)When I go to Australia or NZ I won't tip because I don't want to insult my hosts or show my ignorance but the reverse is true when the custom is to tip. You know- when in Rome do what the Romans do...

 

remember we are talking about 10 dollars per person per day not a thousand per day.

 

What did this have to do with tipping or not tipping? The quote was about attitude and tipping and something about arragon people who tip Which I still do not understand how that came into the discussion.

[greekangel]

Tell you what...stop the debate to what to do or not...all of you who have never worked in the hospitality industry before...all work in it for 1 week be it a front desk, server, bartender, chamber maid, etc....after one week then lets talk about what should be paid or not....what tips should be paid or not...I am a restaurant Manager...let me tell you if I took a cut of my servers tips I wouldnt have any servers!!! ( this is in BC Canada) That is just wrong...so if you make it to Maitre d' of the dinning room I hope you are making decent wages!!! What do you really do??say hi? the server is the one doing all the work!!! I never tip the Matrie d on a cruise... always make sure the server and helpers get the tip!!! thats who does the work!!

[wallaby]

always make sure the server and helpers get the tip!!! thats who does the work!!

 

I always thought that a salary was payed for the work. A tip is what is given when they provide more than the minimum service. Of course, a tip could also be as simple as "work hard, be kind to your mother":)

[AZbeachboy]

Tell you what...stop the debate to what to do or not...all of you who have never worked in the hospitality industry before...all work in it for 1 week be it a front desk, server, bartender, chamber maid, etc....after one week then lets talk about what should be paid or not....what tips should be paid or not...I am a restaurant Manager...let me tell you if I took a cut of my servers tips I wouldnt have any servers!!! ( this is in BC Canada) That is just wrong...so if you make it to Maitre d' of the dinning room I hope you are making decent wages!!! What do you really do??say hi? the server is the one doing all the work!!! I never tip the Matrie d on a cruise... always make sure the server and helpers get the tip!!! thats who does the work!!

 

If you paid them a decent wage you would still have workers.!!! I bet you are walking away with a good wage. Why don't you pay your people? Charge me what the real cost is and let me decided if I want to eat at your place or not. I will decided if it is worth the price or not. If anyone is cheap it is the businesses that do not pay their help a decent wage and compalin that others are not making it up for them.

[spongerob]

If you paid them a decent wage you would still have workers.!!! I bet you are walking away with a good wage. Why don't you pay your people? Charge me what the real cost is and let me decided if I want to eat at your place or not. I will decided if it is worth the price or not. If anyone is cheap it is the businesses that do not pay their help a decent wage and compalin that others are not making it up for them.

AZ - it's simple. If they are paid the equivalent of what they take home in tips through direct charge, then there is more taxable income to go around (wait a minute, I thought Canada had progressed beyond tipping, except when in canoes). In the US, those wages would also be subject to FICA withholding, with the employer having to match that 7-1/4% or whatever it is, provide benefits, a 401K program, etc. Of course, it all comes out of what the customers are willing to pay. Damn, my tuna fish sandwich is going to cost me as much as that filet does today. Maybe more. But we'll all feel better. Good thing I like tuna fish!

[happyscot]

I like to see just one penny pinching, cheapskate, non-tipping pax wait on tables morn, noon, and nite, for 7 + days, then at the end of the cruise, finds out that some one stiffed them....See how they would like it....:rolleyes:...:confused:...;)

Would they have a change in heart?

 

 

Is that a banjo I hear?

 

You should pay some taxes and some fare that allows decent wages to be paid. Cheap cheap. Did you even glance at the posts with the big words - you might have picked something up by osmosis if nothing else. Cheap cheap cluck.

 

I have worked in the hospitality industry, as I'm sure have many people who are opposed to tipping. I did work "morn noon and night" for 7 days a week, on a lot harder work than mincing about with plates of lobster in a silly outfit. Had a ball, I forgot to starve somehow. Got paid an adequate amount, plus occasional tips for particular services. The worst tippers (in a Highland hotel) were actually the Americans, the best were the Germans and Scandinavians - odd, don't know why, but true. Most guests didn't tip, I rather think they expected us to get paid. I didn't give a rat's fart if they tipped or not, we got paid, and they already paid for that. We took the tips, but you always felt vaguely insulted by it, and they sure as hell got no better service - we were professionals, we didn't get bought. Funnily enough, we didn't see them as being any better than us, and the thought of doing tricks for them and showing them photos of our children just to get further up their backsides and get bigger tips - I'm sorry, that's just seriously, seriously weird.

 

Cheap cheap. Cluck. Mooooooooooo.

 

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