The 'As You Wish' Concept

[jhannah]

The Eurodam's inaugural is going to be horrendously expensive ... on the order of a Luxury cruise's pp/pd lower-range. Yes ... right at $400 pp/pd.

Yes, it's expensive alright. But our cruise rate is well under $400, and is a tad less than our Western Mediterranean cruise on the Noordam last year. I guess we got a fairly good deal for the inaugural.

[RevNeal]

Yes, it's expensive alright. But our cruise rate is well under $400, and is a tad less than our Western Mediterranean cruise on the Noordam last year. I guess we got a fairly good deal for the inaugural.

 

Cabin Category?

[RevNeal]

Yes, in the meantime all I can rely on is the photos and reviews of others, and like I mentioned, all indications are Noordam and Serenade of the Seas will be completely comparable. OH! And also the pricing, where HAL comes in as the low-cost provider.

 

On some itineraries and in some market areas, yes. Not always.

 

Indeed, and the post-Vista HAL vessels are apparently going to be even larger than Vista class. All indications are that they will be even less like what you remember HAL to be than the Vista class ships are.

 

Are you trying to rub it in?

[bUU]

Not really trying per se. It's just inescapable. >shrug<

[kryos]

See my post, above, Rita. You're in a better position to say than either of us, having been aboard HAL (one Vista, and mostly R-class ships) and on ships of other lines. Nevertheless, you're also generalizing (which cannot be avoided). HAL has at least one characteristic of a Luxury Line that most of the Mainstreams do NOT have many of (other than for repositioning) but Premiums DO have: many itineraries of extended length and wide-ranging breadth. You, yourself, have enjoyed some of those.

And that's exactly why I say only SOME ships/some itineraries even come close to premium ... specifically those exotic itineraries on the smaller ships. But if I book a b2b Caribbean on the Zuiderdam ... which I did in 2004 ... I honestly don't feel it's a "premium" experience at all. Oh, it's a different experience than it would be on Carnival or RCL ... but not necessarily a better one.

 

But then ... by the same token ... I'd be willing to bet that if I took an 18-day repositioning cruise on the Carnival Liberty I would get just as "premium" an experience as I would on a similar HAL cruise. It's all a matter of itinerary and cruise length ... and to a smaller extent ship.

 

But the fact remains that for what we pay on a HAL ship, we simply don't get a very different experience in terms of quality than we would on another cruise line of the same ilk. The reason for that is simple. For what we are paying for that "main stream" cruise ... say a seven-day Caribbean ... the cruise line can only afford to give us so much or else they would go broke. So, we pay for the same things on HAL that we would have to pay for on Carnival. Now maybe some of the more exotic, expensive itineraries could be slightly different. Now HAL has a much wider profit margin. They can afford to toss passengers a few bones to make them feel like they are getting a bit of an enhanced experience. For example, on my 30-day Hawaii/South Pacific cruise, HAL threw in free rum punch at Sailaway. No other sailing I've been on has provided Sailaway drinks for free. But then no other sailing I've been on has been as expensive as that Hawaii/South Pacific cruise ... so the added few enhancements are understandable.

 

Trust me, I'm not bashing HAL. Quite the contrary, HAL is my clear favorite cruise line. But it's not my favorite because it provides anything different that I can't get on other lines. It's my favorite because it meets more of my needs than any of those other lines ... and the environment onboard is simply a better fit for me than those other lines would likely provide.

 

But I still wouldn't consider HAL, as an overall cruise line, to be a "premium" line. It's a mass market line with certain itineraries that kick it up a notch ...

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[RevNeal]

Not really trying per se. It's just inescapable. >shrug<

 

I am quite aware of that. HAL has been becoming, progressively over the years, less-and-less the kind of Line I want to cruise aboard. They still do an excellent job of providing me the kind of vacation I want, but I have to pick-and-choose a little more carefully the ship and the itinerary in order to minimize those aspects that I general dislike. Not that I disliked the Noordam, or even the Westerdam; quite the contrary, I loved both ships ... and the Noordam had more of that "HAL atmosphere" that, quite frankly, some of the other Vistas have less. I don't like the passenger capacity, but even still the ship didn't feel that much more crowded than does the S and Rs, although the Vista's cabins are (for the most part) a bit smaller. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the S and R ships ... and I suspect their eventual departure may end up taking me away from HAL, too. But, we'll see.

[jhannah]

Cabin Category?

VA for this cruise. Rotterdam Deck (7) wake-view.

[RevNeal]

And that's exactly why I say only SOME ships/some itineraries even come close to premium ... specifically those exotic itineraries on the smaller ships.

 

The nomenclature argument is one that, I suppose, will never be settled. You used the term "premium" here. What lines do YOU class as "Premium?" Be careful NOT to include those that are "Luxury," for that is a different category. And that is my point. The market seems to have defined "Premium" as somthing other than "Luxury" ... something between "mainstream" mass-market and "Luxury." Another way to look at it is that they take some aspects of the Luxury Lines -- like somewhat smaller ships (at least for part of the fleet) and a greater number of exotic itineraries -- and provide them at a lower, more "reasonable" price (i.e., without the nosebleed luxuries). And, it's not just one website or a couple of travel resources that do this ... almost all of them do it. They might vary a bit in definitions, but they still seem to see differences. Why is your opinion better than those who make a business out of Travel reviews?

 

But if I book a b2b Caribbean on the Zuiderdam ... which I did in 2004 ... I honestly don't feel it's a "premium" experience at all. Oh, it's a different experience than it would be on Carnival or RCL ... but not necessarily a better one.

 

And THAT is the extreme on HAL. The Zuiderdam's Caribbean "milk runs" were NOT entirely indicitive of what one fined on the 8 S and R ships, or even on the other 3 Vistas. I've done Caribbean b2bs on the Westerdam ... it wasn't as nice or as refined as when I did it on the Nieuw Amsterdam and the Maasdam, but neither was it what had been described to me by several people who had been aboard the Zuiderdam. It was something in between.

 

But I still wouldn't consider HAL, as an overall cruise line, to be a "premium" line. It's a mass market line with certain itineraries that kick it up a notch ...

 

Again, terminology and opinion. You're defining Luxury down to Premium while collapsing those lines that are usually identified as Premium into the Mainstream. The industry seems to see a scale of gradations. It can sometimes be a very narrow gradation, granted, but they still see it. Do you remember Linda Coffman? She's got an excellent article here at Fodor's Travel Wire ... how would you differ with her definitons? How would you distribute the Lines? What's a Luxury Line? What's Premium Line? What's a "Mainstream" Line?

[RevNeal]

VA for this cruise. Rotterdam Deck (7) wake-view.

 

Same category, different deck. (You're somewhere above us).

Hmmm ... HAL priced my cabin at: $8,104.58 for two. I reserved my booking aboard the Noordam and finalized with pricing while aboard the Ryndam; since the fiasco of assignment of this cruise to a TA has me stuck in mid-transfer to the TA of my choice (said-annoyance being in the process of being solved ... and should have been solved already, except for legal wrangling between the TA which got it and HAL, which erroneously assigned it to them), all I have to work with is the original HAL quote. Perhaps, when my new TA finally receives this booking, I'll find out that I'm getting a better rate? I sure hope so. I've found VAs quoted by online discounters for $7,116.60 for two ($3,558.30 per person). That would make the per-day cost $355.83, rather than $405.20.

 

The second cruise (July 15th) I'm in an inside cabin for SIGNIFICANTLY less ... even though I'm paying single supplement for that one.

[RevNeal]

The Zuiderdam's Caribbean "milk runs" were NOT entirely indicitive of what one fined on the 8 S and R ships, or even on the other 3 Vistas.

 

Grumble ... grumble. How the heck did that happen? "would find" Sometimes I need to slow down and re-read in the Preview before I post. :)

[kryos]

The nomenclature argument is one that, I suppose, will never be settled. You used the term "premium" here. What lines do YOU class as "Premium?"

I guess I would personally define premium as a line that offers some extra bennies ... like maybe free soft drinks or bottled water, limited free alcohol (as perhaps in a bar set up in the cabin upon embarkation) and maybe a smaller ship/less passengers, more personal service. I think premium lines would be Azamara and perhaps Windstar ... HAL for certain ships/itineraries; i.e., some of Prisendam's more exotic voyages.

 

Luxury I would define as all-inclusive for the most part ... free alcohol, or at least wine with dinners ... perhaps an included shore excursion or two ... maybe a water sports platform ... that sort of thing. Also, the luxury lines are way beyond the price point of any other line ... which classes it far beyond the rest (i.e., anyone shopping for cruises would know that these lines are clearly in a class by themselves and must include a lot more in the price of the cruise). In short, if you are booking a 7 day cruise and one line will cost you $1,500 for that outside cabin, while the other wants $3,500 ... it is clear that there is a major difference between the two lines ... hence, the more expensive one would have to include a lot more and thus be luxury. However, if you look at price points between a Carnival and a HAL ... the price point won't be too much different, indicating that both lines pretty much include the same ammenities.

 

That's the way I break them down anyway.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

how would you differ with her definitons? How would you distribute the Lines? What's a Luxury Line? What's Premium Line? What's a "Mainstream" Line?

 

Mainstream = Any line that caters to families and keeps their price points family friendly. They have large ships, lots of ammenities, well thought out children's programs and kid friendly dining rooms with children's menus and the like. I would class these as RCL, NCL, Carnival, etc. Interestingly enough, I don't think I would class Disney in this category since their ships/ammenities are a bit more upscale than what would be found on a mass market line. They also do interesting things with their cruises ... like pair them with Disney World stays, etc. A cruise on a Disney ship would appear to be more of a "class production" than just a cruise.

 

Premium = As I said before, smaller ships, more personal attention, perhaps limited elements of the luxury experience; i.e., perhaps a free initial bar set-up in the room, maybe no charge specialty restaurants, etc. But definitely not all-inclusive. You will pay for shore excursions and liquor, usually even water and soft drinks too. You will sign chits just like on the mass market lines for just about everything you buy. Premium lines I would class as maybe Disney, Azamara, Windstar and some HAL ships ... but definitely not all HAL ships.

 

Luxury = There is no blurring of the distinctions here. The luxury lines are in a class by themselves. You won't be confused when looking at them. They will be far more all-inclusive in that probably the only things onboard you will pay for are items of a personal nature ... gambling, purchases from stores, spa services, etc. The price will be considerably higher and the ships will generally be very intimate. Accommodations too will generally be of a higher calibre. In fact, they may be entirely suites. I would list among these categories cruise lines such as Regent, Crystal and Seaborne.

 

These are the ways I use to judge cruises and cruise ships. It's not perfect, but I believe it is more accurate than what the cruise lines use to judge themselves. HAL would like you to believe they are a premium line, but when you get right down to it, many of their ships have very little to distinguish them from the offerings of any other major mass market line, including Carnival and RCL. Sure the onboard atmosphere is different, but that's because HAL is a different cruise line than Carnival or RCL. The onboard atmosphere is different onboard NCL too ... and that's because NCL has differentiated themselves as being a very non-traditional line ... not better, just different than all the others. Maybe my way of classifying cruise lines into catgories isn't the most accurate, but it works for me. Holland America, at least in my estimation, is not a premium line ... at least not across a goodly portion of their fleet. In fact, as the years progress, they may retain very little of that distinction.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[bUU]

And thereby become more and more the kind of cruise line that many of us want to cruise on.

[RevNeal]

Thanks, Rita. You seem to have HAL straddling the divide between Premium and Mainstream. I tend to agree, particularly on those itineraries and ships that were intended for that purpose. As for how much of the fleet this is true for ... well ... for 9 ships it is not true -- The Ss, the Rs, and the Prinsendam. For the Vistas and the coming Signatures, they may well seem to lend themselves more to the upper-end of Mainstream if not a bit further down. In the end it all depends upon opinion and experience.

 

As for the price divisions ... again, if you look at the price ranges that I quoted above from another source they do reflect a great degree of overlap (as they define it) between Mainstream and Premium. That overlap appears to be built into the market. That's why I say that some lines -- like HAL -- have taken aspects of the "Luxury" experience: mid-size and smaller ships with higher crew-to-passenger ratios, slightly larger cabins, more exotic and longer itineraries -- and supplied them to a part of the market at a much more "reasonable" price-point that enables the rest of us to afford them. That distinguishes ("lifts") Lines like HAL above the "mainstream fray." Hence, on those cruises/ships that were such features are not offered, of course they're going to appear to be more "mainstream."

 

I've just noticed that we've been re-hashing an excellent and informative thread from back in May ... around my Dad's deathday, which is why I don't remember it very well.

 

HERE

 

You posted on it pretty much as you've posted here. I tend to agree with some of what you said there, and here, but I also believe that the Premium character is not just a matter of price and what is offered for that price.

 

Somewhere, on some thread, I vaguely remember somebody posting a citation for how much the Lines spend on food, per-person, for their passengers. I can't find it.

[hammybee]

However, if you look at price points between a Carnival and a HAL ... the price point won't be too much different, indicating that both lines pretty much include the same ammenities.

--rita

 

There are pricing overlaps at both ends. The more affordable cruise lines tend to charge higher percentage single suppliments than the more costly cruise lines. With some careful shopping, it is possible for a solo cruiser to sail the higher end at almost a break even point, when and if tips and alcohol ( assuming this is of interest) are included.

 

Here is a quick run down:

 

Siver Seas- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

Sea Dream- Open Seating-Casual Dress- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

SEABORN- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

Regent- Open Seating- One Formal Evening on some sails- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

Crystal- Fixed/Assigned Seating-Some formal Evenings- Tips/Alcohol Not Included- Soda and Water Included.

 

Not so obvious factors to consider:

 

One of these cruise lines charges a $100 per person suppliment for early boarding ( before 2:30-3:00 P.M.).

 

One of these cruise lines has a Crew Fund whereby a passenger can voluntarily tip more.

 

One of these cruise lines has been known to allow jeans in the dining room, as evidenced by the owner's onboard attire

 

At least two of these cruise lines offer seasonal kids promos.

 

All of these cruise lines covet groups and charter business.

 

All of these cruise lines most often sail from non U.S. ports.

[RevNeal]

There are pricing overlaps at both ends. The more affordable cruise lines tend to charge higher percentage single suppliments than the more costly cruise lines. With some careful shopping, it is possible for a solo cruiser to sail the higher end at almost a break even point, when and if tips and alcohol ( assuming this is of interest) are included.

 

Most interesting. HAL charges one of the lowest single-supplements in the industry (at least for the Mainstream/Premium Lines). I wonder if that correlates any?

 

Here is a quick run down:

 

Siver Seas- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

Sea Dream- Open Seating-Casual Dress- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

SEABORN- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

Regent- Open Seating- One Formal Evening on some sails- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

 

Crystal- Fixed/Assigned Seating-Some formal Evenings- Tips/Alcohol Not Included- Soda and Water Included.

 

Not so obvious factors to consider:

 

One of these cruise lines charges a $100 per person suppliment for early boarding ( before 2:30-3:00 P.M.).

 

One of these cruise lines has a Crew Fund whereby a passenger can voluntarily tip more.

 

One of these cruise lines has been known to allow jeans in the dining room, as evidenced by the owner's onboard attire

 

At least two of these cruise lines offer seasonal kids promos.

 

All of these cruise lines covet groups and charter business.

 

All of these cruise lines most often sail from non U.S. ports.

 

Thanks ... Of the Luxury Lines, I've been examining Regent and Seabourn for cruses with Christopher. I've not given any thought to a Luxury Line for a solo cruise, but if the Single Supplement is low enough, it might be worth it to examine the options. Being solo, the important thing to note is that the only one with assigned seating is Crystal. But, they are also the only one that doesn't include tips OR booze.