Subway question for New Yorkers

[travel-to-go]

We will agree to disagree. As I said I don't care how "nice" the new terminal is, Red Hook is a dump and IKEA isn't going to drastically change the landscape. Sure, I look forward to the new IKEA so I can shop there and take a water taxi from lower Manhattan across the East River (as is planned) to get there (and pay higher New York City sales taxes :rolleyes: ) rather than having to take the shuttle bus from the Port Authority to the Elizabeth, New Jersey location. However, no matter how "obsolete" the Westside Piers are, they only need to be rebuilt. No matter how "nice" the new terminal in Red Hook is, the tradition of sailing up or down the Hudson (depedning which way you are going) and the convenience and thrill of disembarking ship right into Midtown Manhattan will be lost (or you must sail HAL). It's sad. Feel free to love Red Hook all you want. I never will.

And I would have expected a Tortugan to have better manners!

 

You obviously haven't been to Brooklyn lately.

The more I learn about Brooklyn, the more there is to love. And some of the stuff to love isn't the new stuff, but the old! Concrete and glass are sterile and boring. You need a Central Park to break the monotony of Skyscrapers. Brooklyn is vibrant, it has kitschy places and people and just wonderful class and interesting neighborhoods. It is far from the sterile rush, rush, Everybody out for them self, Wall street wunderkind out to get rich quick. Where else but Brooklyn could you have a performance artist launch a revolutionary war replica submarine! Oh yeah, Queens, where he built a colonial replica tavern. The Sugar silos- Tell me Manhattan can compete with that! A guy who makes authentic Key Lime Pies from scratch, and drives an old Ford panel Van. Art galleries and eateries to rival anything Manhattan has.

Jean Lafitte, Peut etre, you need to get out more! Don't be so provincial!

If you don't like Brooklyn, and you have been there lately and given it a chance, well, so be it. But don't put it down. You have no right to call it a dump! Your caustic attitude is repugnant.

I think Tortuga would be ashamed. And Jean Lafitte would turn in his articles.

 

Karie,

who is giving up her regular Cay Hueso trip to drive to Brooklyn, board the QM2 and spend 10 days cruising to the Caribbean.

[Jean Lafitte]

And I would have expected a Tortugan to have better manners!

 

You obviously haven't been to Brooklyn lately.

The more I learn about Brooklyn, the more there is to love. And some of the stuff to love isn't the new stuff, but the old! Concrete and glass are sterile and boring. You need a Central Park to break the monotony of Skyscrapers. Brooklyn is vibrant, it has kitschy places and people and just wonderful class and interesting neighborhoods. It is far from the sterile rush, rush, Everybody out for them self, Wall street wunderkind out to get rich quick. Where else but Brooklyn could you have a performance artist launch a revolutionary war replica submarine! Oh yeah, Queens, where he built a colonial replica tavern. The Sugar silos- Tell me Manhattan can compete with that! A guy who makes authentic Key Lime Pies from scratch, and drives an old Ford panel Van. Art galleries and eateries to rival anything Manhattan has.

Jean Lafitte, Peut etre, you need to get out more! Don't be so provincial!

If you don't like Brooklyn, and you have been there lately and given it a chance, well, so be it. But don't put it down. You have no right to call it a dump! Your caustic attitude is repugnant.

I think Tortuga would be ashamed. And Jean Lafitte would turn in his articles.

 

Karie,

who is giving up her regular Cay Hueso trip to drive to Brooklyn, board the QM2 and spend 10 days cruising to the Caribbean.

 

Who said I don't like all of Brooklyn? Did I say Brooklyn was a dump? No, I said Red Hook is a dump, which it is. I'm also stating my opinion, and that's not rude. Red Hook is a dump in my opinion, so are parts of the Bronx and Queens. Anyone else can love Red Hook all they want, I never will (as I've already said).

 

And of course, I trust you read my previous post that discloses that I live in NYC; Tortuga is a joke. That's why there's a little winking symbol next to it.

[travel-to-go]

Who said I don't like all of Brooklyn? Did I say Brooklyn was a dump? No, I said Red Hook is a dump, which it is. I'm also stating my opinion, and that's not rude. Red Hook is a dump in my opinion, so are parts of the Bronx and Queens. Anyone else can love Red Hook all they want, I never will (as I've already said).

 

And of course, I trust you read my previous post that discloses that I live in NYC; Tortuga is a joke. That's why there's a little winking symbol next to it.

 

 

If I remember, no one lives on Tortuga? Maybe Sunset island!

There is a Fort on Tortuga.

And I even suspected you weren't REALLY Jean Lafitte.

And I think you should give Red Hook another chance. IT has changed, It is no longer characterized by the projects that once made it so bad.

 

And BTW, That's why I mentioned that the same performance artist (Riley, I think his name is) previously built a replica tavern in QUEENS- where you are from. And yes, I have friends who live in Manhattan.

 

 

KP

[Jean Lafitte]

If I remember, no one lives on Tortuga? Maybe Sunset island!

There is a Fort on Tortuga.

And I even suspected you weren't REALLY Jean Lafitte.

And I think you should give Red Hook another chance. IT has changed, It is no longer characterized by the projects that once made it so bad.

 

And BTW, That's why I mentioned that the same performance artist (Riley, I think his name is) previously built a replica tavern in QUEENS- where you are from. And yes, I have friends who live in Manhattan.

 

 

KP

 

I really don't want to go on about this, but I live in New York, I'm familiar with Red Hook, I have been there, and I have my opinion, and it's been stated. I will leave you with this, from Gothamist:

 

Red Hook: Dead End?

http://gothamist.com/2007/08/13/hook.php

 

The NY Post reports on the ever-declining neighborhood of Red Hook today, with the area going through some changes that may make some suckers wonder why they just spent $800K on an apartment there. The Brooklyn Paper reported on the neighborhood last month as well, stating it "is in fact turning cold one year after New York’s gentrification guard branded it as The Next Big Thing." Of course, the "gentrification guard" had its eyes on the area for more than a year, in 2004 The Red Hook Gowanus Chamber of Commerce stated, '"It feels like Red Hook is being dismissed as the viable maritime and industrial community that it is. They've determined that its future is as a luxury waterfront community."

 

So is Red Hook the victim of an over-hyped market, or is it just continuing to be what it's always been: a pretty isolated and hard to get to area? Growth and change like this seem to happen a bit more quickly when the area in question is only one subway stop away. Nevertheless, it seemed a bright future was on the horizon following Barbara Corcoran's $1-million purchase of a building on Van Brunt Street. Just a year later, however, many of the places that make Red Hook a neighborhood are now shutting down: 360, Old Pioneer, Lido Bar, LeNell’s liquor store and venue The Hook are all closing their doors, and the bookstore Freebird is up for sale on Craigslist. And things don't look so good when mainstay bar Sunny’s is only open three nights a week. Can the ballfield vendors be saved at least?

 

Van Brunt Street is now left with two bars, two upscale restaurants, a wine shop and a bakery. IKEA will be coming to the 'hood soon, and Fairway has already set up shop there - but will more big name chains move in? The idea has residents "bracing for a traffic nightmare in the subway-less 'hood."

 

UPDATE: There seems to be some confusion on whether or not Lido bar is closing. From the Brooklyn Paper article linked to above, Ariella Cohen writes, "My favorite bookstore, Freebird on nearby Columbia Street, is for sale on Craig’s List, as is another Columbia Street establishment, Lido bar." Some employees have stated otherwise in the comments on this post, however.

 

CALL IT 'DEAD HOOK'

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08132007/news/regionalnews/call_it_dead_hook_regionalnews_heidi_singer_and_rich_calder.htm

 

CRYING IN THEIR BEER IN RED HOOK

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/30/28/30_28cryinginbeer.html

[smeyer418]

It really isn't declining. It declined years ago. It only has one way to go and that is up. I remember one story that talked about the derelict warehouses....and the picture was of Fairway. All the condos in Fairway have been sold and a steak house is on the way. Ikea- not my favorite- will revitalize what was an abandoned shipyard with jobs.

 

The west side of Manhattan was once was very threatening and dangerous and not near any mass transit. Yet somehow is the great terminal that all poobahs should go to.

 

 

 

The Pool in Brooklyn Bridge Park is not near any public transport but has been full all summer merely by using shuttle buses and as she points out Ferries-the Mass transport of all Staten Island can be used. NY City has announced increasing bus transport into Red Hook. there are many parts of Brooklyn and Queens without subways...buses take there place. and the newspapers are always right....

 

While time will tell, I would bet ten years from now Red Hook will be a vibrant middle class community with 2 ports and a lot of people from Queens...(which is part of Long Island as is Brooklyn)

 

You should know that LeNells in another paper says that the story isn't true...she wants a space within 1000 feet to open both a new store and a bar....

 

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/30/33/30_33lenells.html

[Kindlychap]

Jean Lafitte, Peut etre, you need to get out more! Don't be so provincial!

If you don't like Brooklyn, and you have been there lately and given it a chance, well, so be it. But don't put it down. You have no right to call it a dump! Your caustic attitude is repugnant.

 

Karie,

 

Read what was written, not what you think was written.

 

Red Hook is a dump. As Smeyer says, the only way to go is up.

 

Now you wouldn't know what a transatlantic crossing ending up at Manhattan was like, would you? No. I thought not. But believe me, arriving at Red Hook is nothing to what arriving at Manhattan is. Yes, the terminal at Red Hook is more efficient. Ultimately, who cares? Compared with the magical quality of sailing up to the West Side piers and docking where the late, great Queens docked does it matter if the terminal is better?

 

Of course, none of this really makes an enormous difference save with a westbound crossing - which has lost something since the arrival of Red Hook.

 

At least in my opinion.

 

Matthew

[guernseyguy]

No matter how "nice" the new terminal in Red Hook is, the tradition of sailing up or down the Hudson (depedning which way you are going) and the convenience and thrill of disembarking ship right into Midtown Manhattan will be lost.

 

Amen! Part of a crossing is the 'romance of travel' and that used to include sailing up the North River - then negotiating the shambles of the West Side piers (where you could always bail, walk a block inland and get a taxi no bother - try doing that in Red Hook) but some people will not listen to that and as soon as any suggestion is made that Red Hook is less than wonderful will just bash away (generally, out of character) at the poster......

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

Your caustic attitude is repugnant.

 

Got a mirror, dear?:rolleyes:

[guernseyguy]

the tradition of sailing up or down the Hudson and the convenience and thrill of disembarking ship right into Midtown Manhattan will be lost

 

Compared with the magical quality of sailing up to the West Side piers and docking where the late, great Queens docked does it matter if the terminal is better?

 

Part of a crossing is the 'romance of travel' and that used to include sailing up the North River

 

Friends of Red Hook: Your response to the above is what (apart from general bashing)?

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

the tradition of sailing up or down the Hudson and the convenience and thrill of disembarking ship right into Midtown Manhattan will be lost

 

Compared with the magical quality of sailing up to the West Side piers and docking where the late, great Queens docked does it matter if the terminal is better?

 

Part of a crossing is the 'romance of travel' and that used to include sailing up the North River

 

Friends of Red Hook: Your response to the above is what (apart from general bashing)?

 

Peter

[smeyer418]

well at least its not Queens :)....

 

 

 

I must say that I agree about cruising into and out of Manhattan but there really is nothing wrong with the Red Hook pier. Its clearly physically nicer(and it nicer than the Bayonne one also)...What I did point out is that it really isn't that bad. Actually I think my pictures prove it better. It is an interesting area more so than the piers on Manhattan. But Brooklyn is not what people come to in NYC...even though we are destination of the year...but what I do take umbrage at is that people who haven't been say it scary and dangerous which it surely is not.

[guernseyguy]

well at least its not Queens :)....

 

Wouldn't the QM2 get stuck under the Brooklyn Bridge.....I know it would 'only ever be a problem once'......:)

 

Peter

[smeyer418]

Wouldn't the QM2 get stuck under the Brooklyn Bridge.....I know it would 'only ever be a problem once'......:)

 

Peter

I am not sure but remember most US Battleships were built in the Brooklyn Navy Yard(before it closed) so that large ships with high masts were sailed under the Brooklyn Bridge, I realize that these are Panamax ships and that the QM2 is post Panamax but who knows....and the BB has been around a long time....which is between the Harbor and the old Navy yard

[guernseyguy]

I am not sure but remember most US Battleships were built in the Brooklyn Navy Yard(before it closed) so that large ships with high masts were sailed under the Brooklyn Bridge, I realize that these are Panamax ships and that the QM2 is post Panamax but who knows....and the BB has been around a long time....which is between the Harbor and the old Navy yard

 

According to this:

 

http://www.endex.com/gf/buildings/bbridge/bbridgefacts.htm

 

The height of the car deck (and I don't know whether thats the roadway or the structure underneath) is 135' above water. The QM2's airdraft is 203 feet........

[Jean Lafitte]

but what I do take umbrage at is that people who haven't been say it scary and dangerous which it surely is not.

 

Well I have indeed been there, more than once, and it certainly isn't a place I would want to be wandering around by myself as it's getting dark, so direct your "umbrage" elsewhere.

[lexxity]

May Carnival/Princess one day see the error of their ways.

 

 

Ahem, if we are talking about the QM2 then it was the US Coastguard that kicked the QM2 out of Manhattan, she was only ever there temporarily whilst Red Hook was finished. As for sailing out of Brooklyn I found it to be fine. The terminal is smart, clean, efficent has loads of parking and really friendly staff. Plus the view is gorgeous. Even when the piers are refurbished the QM2 won't be going there again.

 

Naughty Carnival/Princess fancy them wanting their passengers to have a nice, clean, effiecent start/end to their cruise.:rolleyes:

 

Try American Dream car for car service, we used them and they were very good.

[smeyer418]

Well I have indeed been there, more than once, and it certainly isn't a place I would want to be wandering around by myself as it's getting dark, so direct your "umbrage" elsewhere.

 

and you would walk around 11 th avenue and 12th avenue(hell's kitchen) in the dark by yourself? You may be called a lady of the evening if you do--and a cheap one at that....UMBRAGE at you...

[Jean Lafitte]

and you would walk around 11 th avenue in the dark by yourself? You may be called a lady of the evening if you do....UMBRAGE at you...

 

/jean lafitte *dismissively waves off the hopeless"

[Jean Lafitte]

Ahem, if we are talking about the QM2 then it was the US Coastguard that kicked the QM2 out of Manhattan, she was only ever there temporarily whilst Red Hook was finished. As for sailing out of Brooklyn I found it to be fine. The terminal is smart, clean, efficent has loads of parking and really friendly staff. Plus the view is gorgeous. Even when the piers are refurbished the QM2 won't be going there again.

 

Naughty Carnival/Princess fancy them wanting their passengers to have a nice, clean, effiecent start/end to their cruise.:rolleyes:

 

Try American Dream car for car service, we used them and they were very good.

 

No, actually, Carnival Corp is the one who wanted to build the terminal in Red Hook and move there. And as I've said (and others), "Who cares about the terminal?" when you lose the Hudson transit and the convenience and excitement of embarking/disembarking from Midtown Manhattan?

[lexxity]

No, listen to what I said the US COASTGUARD only ever temporarily allowed the QM2 into the Hudson, she is TOO big for the piers there. I personally think that Carnival did the right thing wanting a clean, efficent terminal for their passengers. If there had been no Red Hook, I expect she would have eventually been shunted off to Bayonne. Oh and don't forget, no Carnival then very probably we wouldn't be here discussing Cunard ships.

[Jean Lafitte]

No, listen to what I said the US COASTGUARD only ever temporarily allowed the QM2 into the Hudson, she is TOO big for the piers there. I personally think that Carnival did the right thing wanting a clean, efficent terminal for their passengers. If there had been no Red Hook, I expect she would have eventually been shunted off to Bayonne. Oh and don't forget, no Carnival then very probably we wouldn't be here discussing Cunard ships.

 

Oh I indeed know exactly what you said, and I very well know about the temporary exception granted to Carnival/Cunard by the U.S. Coast Guard to allow QM2 to stick out 100 extra feet into the Hudson. But Carnival had been looking to build the terminal in Brooklyn long before - U.S. Coast Guard exception or not. And while I agree that without Carnival there may not be a QM2 today, that doesn't mean that I univerally love and praise them. While I am glad the QM2 exists, I accept Carnival Corporation as a nessecary evil, and find fault with a lot of things they do.

 

If the pier on the Westside were lengthened, (which I do believe is part of the plan) QM2 could indeed return her rightful home in New York, and no one knows what will eventually happen in the future. Until then, one can have hope.

[lexxity]

If the pier on the Westside were lengthened, (which I do believe is part of the plan) QM2 could indeed return her rightful home in New York, and no one knows what will eventually happen in the future. Until then, one can have hope.

 

I hope that too. I also don't totally praise Carnival, but I'm not going to whinge about them when they do something to make the vast majority of their passengers lives easier.

[Jean Lafitte]

I hope that too. I also don't totally praise Carnival, but I'm not going to whinge about them when they do something to make the vast majority of their passengers lives easier.

 

Whether the terminal at Red Hook "make(s) the vast majority of their passengers lives easier." is debatable. It certainly wouldn't be "easier" for me. Getting to Red Hook is more expensive and more of a hassle. From where I live, I could take the N/W train to 49th street and then take a *very* short cab ride straight to Pier 90. Total travel time door to door is much shorter as well. Ditto for all those staying in Midtwon Manhattan hotels before and after a crosssing or cruise. Is the new terminal more comfortable inside? Yes. Does it unequivocally make life easier for passengers (getting to and from the terminal, and distance from where people are staying pre and post sailing - as well as distance from the part of New York people are interested in?) Debatable for sure.

[southwestie]

I was talking to someone who lives somewhere in the northern part of the US. I said how friendly I'd found New Yorkers 20 years ago. He couldn't believe me and said that they were so rude it was better not to speak to them at all! At last I've found someone else who says that New Yorkers can be friendly:)

 

WE were once told how unfriendly they are almost 30 years back on our 1st vist there, we found quite the opposite, very friendly, helpful and have remained so during all our vists there since.

 

I do think however as it is a big city and they are always rushing they have that that big city arrogance, the same as London, paris etc, but underneath they are fine

[southwestie]

Oh I indeed know exactly what you said, and I very well know about the temporary exception granted to Carnival/Cunard by the U.S. Coast Guard to allow QM2 to stick out 100 extra feet into the Hudson. But Carnival had been looking to build the terminal in Brooklyn long before - U.S. Coast Guard exception or not. And while I agree that without Carnival there may not be a QM2 today, that doesn't mean that I univerally love and praise them. While I am glad the QM2 exists, I accept Carnival Corporation as a nessecary evil, and find fault with a lot of things they do.

 

If the pier on the Westside were lengthened, (which I do believe is part of the plan) QM2 could indeed return her rightful home in New York, and no one knows what will eventually happen in the future. Until then, one can have hope.

 

I was told last year by Cunard uk that it was part of the plan to return the QM2 to westside with longer pier