Lpg

[Kindlychap]

Kirsten tells me that she has read something that the Carnival Corp. are planning to convert to LPG gas.

 

Anyone know anything more?

 

Matthew

[jgsmuzzy]

Very interesting.

 

It would be a massive job to convert the diesel generators to LPG. LPG is burnt like petrol (e.g. compression and spark plugs) rather than just huge compression to generate the heat in diesel engines.

 

I also cannot really understand the reasoning. There is less lpg available that diesel due to it being a byproduct of the "cracking" process that is often "flamed" at refineries.

 

(My sparce knowledge comes from the fact that I run a car on lpg)

[KarenR_UK]

Kirsten tells me that she has read something that the Carnival Corp. are planning to convert to LPG gas.

 

Anyone know anything more?

 

Matthew

 

It was in the local paper (Southern Daily Echo) last night as a quote from David Dingle (Carnival UK CEO)

 

cant find the article / quote online, so this is part of it

 

I believe that by 2020 the new cruise ships will be powered by a completely different way. I could be biofuels, it could be liquid natual gas.

This is already on our agenda, but the industry has been developing so rapidly, across so many fronts that, to date, there simply has not been enough time to devote to the necessary research and development of something so pivotal to ship design that it will require a relatively long lead time before it can be fully introduced

 

He expects R&D to start 2010, so by 2020

 

we should have worked out the best way forward to marry the environmental issues involved with the optimal design for the ships to operate efficiently

 

It was part of a 2 page spread about Ventura (P+Os ship due to launch in April)

 

this is also part of the quote

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/search/display.var.2039634.0.number_of_britons_cruising_is_set_to_soar.php

 

 

 

Karen

[guernseyguy]

It was in the local paper (Southern Daily Echo) last night as a quote from David Dingle (Carnival UK CEO)

 

It could also be a bit of PR to divert criticism from the shipping industry over carbon emissions - which the Gruaniad says the UN now estimate at three times the previous estimate - and almost twice that of aviation:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/13/climatechange.pollution

 

Peter

[ocngypz]

Not at all. It was just a little "crystal ball" what iff's by David Dingle at a recent meeting when asked what's in the future.

 

The full story is at Seatrade Insider.

 

The cruiselines have already experimented with MGO, combined with gas/steam turbines.... and have found it too expensive. Therefore, they've installed auxiliary diesels to run at least their hotel plants.

[Dorchester]

Kirsten tells me that she has read something that the Carnival Corp. are planning to convert to LPG gas.

 

Anyone know anything more?

 

Matthew

 

As an electro-mechanical engineer involved in converting internal combustion engines to LPG, it is only petrol (gasoline) engines that can be converted to run 100% on LPG.

 

Diesel engines can never be converted to run 100% on LPG, as all diesel engines depend upon the compression of the atomised fuel (diesel) to cause it to ignite, unlike a petrol (gasoline) engine where the spark plug ignites the mixture.

 

Diesel engines can be converted to run PARTIALLY on LPG, but this technology is still in its infancy. Currently a maximum of 20% LPG can be introduced with the diesel fuel if the engine is to remain reliable. This is attractive to truck fleet operators in the UK, as LPG is less than half of the cost of diesel fuel, mainly due to a greatly reduced level of tax being levied by the government on LPG.

 

Compared to diesel fuel, LPG produces 90% less particulates, 90% less oxides of nitrogen and 60% less carbon dioxide, resulting in a 70% less overall ozone forming potential. These figures compare the "pump" diesel fuel sold at your local filling station, and may be different (even better?) when compared with the thicker, less refined fuel used in large marine engines.

 

Nevertheless, any reduction in using diesel fuel would produce an environmental advantage. As to the financial cost - let's just say that it would indeed be considerable!

 

Safety on ocean-going vessels could also be an issue. Firstly, LPG is stored as a liquid under high pressure in thick steel tanks. In the case of a fire on board, the risk of a significant explosion would be considerable. More importantly, LPG in gaseous form is heavier than air, and in the event of a gas leak, it would always collect in the lowest part of the vessel, where even one small spark could ignite it with horrendous consequences. In the UK, it is illegal to work on any LPG vehicle over a garage 'pit', for in the event of a leak, the LPG would collect there and be an explosion waiting to happen.

 

So, apart from the not-inconsiderable LPG conversion and storage costs for a large vessel, there are a number of important safety issues that would have to be addressed. Accomplishing this to the satisfaction of the insurers would probably cost more than the conversion itself.

 

Frankly, unless the conversion of large marine installations can be proved to be economically viable - and my understanding is that currently they can not - I don't see Carnival parting with large sums of money simply on 'green' issues alone.

 

Regards,

David

[calikak]

I wonder if they could be converted to run on used fry oil? I've heard of people doing this to cars with diesel engines for relatively cheap, but I'm sure it would be substantially more complex with a cruise ship's engines. I know next to nothing about this kind of thing, but it sounds interestng enough.

[guernseyguy]

Report on Cruise Critic:

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=2398

 

"Say goodbye to single supplements," says Peter Shanks, Carnival UK's chief commercial officer. "It will become viable to design ships with single accommodation that can be sold for the same per-person price as double cabins." Historic footnote: In times gone by, most ships did build a range of cabins that included those for solo travelers with no extra supplement. These days, few remain; Saga Holidays ships and Cunard's QE2 are among the few remaining options.

 

In other words, forward to the past.......:rolleyes:

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

I wonder if they could be converted to run on used fry oil? I've heard of people doing this to cars with diesel engines for relatively cheap

 

My brother has done this to his diesel, to the mortification of his kids, who have nicknamed it 'The Frying Scotsman'......

 

.....I guess the issue with cruise ships would be getting enough used frying oil in the first place......

[ocngypz]

Report on Cruise Critic:

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=2398

 

"Say goodbye to single supplements," says Peter Shanks, Carnival UK's chief commercial officer. "It will become viable to design ships with single accommodation that can be sold for the same per-person price as double cabins." Historic footnote: In times gone by, most ships did build a range of cabins that included those for solo travelers with no extra supplement. These days, few remain; Saga Holidays ships and Cunard's QE2 are among the few remaining options.

 

In other words, forward to the past.......:rolleyes:

 

Peter

 

It also means larger ships. And that is NOT a good thing. With the good, also comes bad. And you know they wouldn't be located mid-ship!

[Highlander0108]

I saw an article somewhere on the internet in the past which detailed the Aker yards, RCI's favorite ship builder, engineering studies on a LPG cruise ship of the future. There are a host of issues to overcome, the biggest being the size and location of the tanks, which would be massive and would have to be inboard to protect from any potential collision damage. Also, refueling at various ports has to be examined, ports redesigned, and ships to deliver the fuel built/designed as well. This is no small undertaking. It was an interesting article and I unfortunately cannot locate it again.

 

Regarding the biofuel, that's an awful lot of frying needed to generate enough to fill a ship up for one cruise.:rolleyes: Wartsila (QV engine supplier)and other diesel engine manufacturers are making great strides in their new engine designs and efficiencies. I noticed very little dark smoke out of QV on our tandem crossing, especially compared to the brown streak QE2 left.

[Highlander0108]

I saw an article somewhere on the internet in the past which detailed the Aker yards, RCI's favorite ship builder, engineering studies on a LPG cruise ship of the future. There are a host of issues to overcome, the biggest being the size and location of the tanks, which would be massive and would have to be inboard to protect from any potential collision damage. Also, refueling at various ports has to be examined, ports redesigned, and ships to deliver the fuel built/designed as well. This is no small undertaking. It was an interesting article and I unfortunately cannot locate it again.

 

Regarding the biofuel, that's an awful lot of frying needed to generate enough to fill a ship up for one cruise.:rolleyes: Wartsila (QV engine supplier)and other diesel engine manufacturers are making great strides in their new engine designs and efficiencies. I noticed very little dark smoke out of QV on our tandem crossing, especially compared to the brown streak QE2 left.

[Anteeta]

Kirsten tells me that she has read something that the Carnival Corp. are planning to convert to LPG gas.

 

Anyone know anything more?

 

Matthew

 

CC converting what to LPG Matthew? Energy sources for their premises or shipping?

 

I hope the former as we're moving soon to an area of the UK not supplied by mains gas and the alternative is LPG so any info on limitations/issues most welcome.:)

[BrianI]

This Carnival UK report mentions use of LPG and other items of interest. The report says it may be used on new ships around 2020

http://www.completecruisesolution.com/files/775.pdf

Brian