Dining Room Health on HAL

[wilhelm]

I have just returned from a 10 day Ryndam cruise to Mexico. We boarded on Feb 25 on the cruise following the 100 person norovirus outbreak. I was sympathetic with all they had to do and we cast off on time. During a Red Alert or Code Red the Lido staff has to work extra hard, and hats off to them.

 

I am a pharmacist in CA and am trying to look out for your health. HAL uses 100% Indonesian servers in evening dining room, and every one who waited on us was kind and courteous. I asked how they got training and one replied that there was a HAL school for them. They were very polite and efficient. There was a glaring health issue however, and I encourage all HAL cruisers to watch for this:

The utensils used to add condiments after you have been served should never touch your food or anyone else's food.

On 3 occasions this happened.

Our first night, my friend had prime rib and started eating it. A while later the waiter came back and asked if any would like horseradish. My friend said yes. The waiter took the ladle and put horseradish on meat and then spread it about, touching the meat. (This is a great way for anyone who then receives horseradish thereafter to get any bug my friend had). It wasn't my food and felt awkward about jumping on the waiter.

The next night, different waiter and different table, (As you wish dining) the waiter served king crab. A table guest started in eating it. Waiter comes back with drawn butter and guest elects to have some. Waiter proceeds to let spoon touch crab where person had begun eating and puts spoon back into serving bowl.

I went to my room and wrote out 2 nearly identical letters and personally delivered one to the maitre d'. I talked to him about the issue and he said the waiters weren't following policy. I left the second letter at front desk addressed to "Medical Director" and described what happened and asked them to get back to me. (I have names, table numbers, times for everything that happened). Medical person never got back to me.

The last night of the cruise, our waiter, same one as 2nd night, asked the lady next to me if she wanted mint jelly for her lamb shank. She had already been eating it. He put a dolop on her plate, which wasn't quite enough for her and she took her used fork and scraped the remaining jelly off the serving spoon onto her plate. Waiter put spoon back with other jelly.

Medical director did not get back to me and since I had already confronted maitre d' about this, it doesn't appear he gave our waiter any extra training.

HAL needs to address this. KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR VIOLATIONS LIKE THIS ON YOUR CRUISE AND SEND FOOD BACK TO THE KITCHEN, AND ASK FOR A NEW PLATE, and new condiment. They could avoid this by giving small personal bowls of condiments, as in a ramikin, or being very mindful never to touch food after it has been put on table.

Another item is, do you notice all the silverware at our table? Few of us use it all. The waiter took our "unused" silverware back and put it into a basket where he later used a towel to wipe it all off before putting it back into service. [Picture this: Spouse picks up wrong for for eating something and is told "that's your salad fork! He proceeds to put fork back onto table and use the other fork. Then salad fork gets cleared as unused. Waiter later wipes off fork and puts it back into service. I can assure you that from a public health standpoint that fork still contained his germs. I feel sorry for our waiters because to change anything will probably put more work on them, and they were all very personable.

I wrote all of this down a third time and handed it in with final comments and HAL has yet to contact me about this.

I personally believe that most norovirus is contacted from railings and that it is imperative to keep using hand sanitizer, however it is very possible and even probable to pass "bugs" this way. Any health professional who has been trained in "sterile technique" will confirm this.

We had a great cruise. We saw Copper Canyon. It was a real marathon but I'm glad we went. The YU 4 band was great and we danced a little each evening. I would go on HAL again but will address my concerns with Hotel Manager when I board and say that I am expecting healthful service and relate what happened. We have been on Windstar, Renaissance, Princess, and Celebrity. We have enjoyed them all and I really enjoy relaxing and being taken care of. I hope HAL will address this.

[Picaroon]

Oh man I wish I hadn't read this message! We can avoid the horseradish and drawn butter problems but what can we do if our silverwear isn't sterile? Argh.. gross. Maybe I should bring my own plastic utensils. What do you do?

 

I experienced a similar problem at local donut shops (Tim Hortons). They would stir everyones coffee with the same spoon, even people who brought in their dirty travel mugs for a refill. I saw them doing it at several locations. Like you, I wrote the company to let them know. Fortunately they were as outraged to hear about it as I was and assured me they would contact the locations to re-educate them...

[Juanita462]

What an eye opener - things that the average person would never think of. Dining at the first sitting should mean that you get clean cutlery - but, how about the waiters that set the tables - do they handle the cutlery with their bare hands that have been handling who knows what?

Perhaps we should all take all the cutlery in our area and put it in the dirty dish so that they all have to be washed. I have never seen a waitress in a restaurant not put all the cutlery in with the dirty dishes - clean or dirty.

 

There needs to be more training of the staff. Every single cruise we have taken Dh has seen food staff not wash their hands after using the washroom and going right back on duty. He keeps reporting it but it still happens every time.

 

have you ever watched a cooking show and seen the chef wipe the edges of the plates with his cloth? I always wonder about the cleanliness of that cloth and what else it has been wiping.

[LindaJ+]

I guess it would be helpful to put all your unused silverware on your dirty plate ... then they would HAVE to wash it!

[Sea Island Lady]

When first reading your post, I thought you were overreacting a bit, until I read about the table mate that used her own "used fork" to scrap off some mint jelly. Perhaps she should have been the person to reprimand.:rolleyes: What manners! :eek:

 

I wouldn't expect an answer from HAL anytime soon, if at all. It could take months for you to hear from them.;) The comments you left in the ship survey, may have been successful in getting some servers demoted, pay docked or worse, fired! :(

 

If I gave half a thought to all the potential germs I encounter in restaurants, I would never go out to eat! I am sure that more disgusting practices are happening back in the kitchens of restaurants and in the ship galley. We just don't have any idea. :rolleyes:

[Thames476]

This should hopefully serve as an eye opener.. In the dining room ALWAYS use hand sanitizer.. Those elevator buttons and hand rails carry huge viruses.. Its amazing how germs are transmitted. When I was on rounds in the hospital I never wore a tie.. It tended to touch everyone and everything.:cool: Dr. B

[CocoKai]

Ewwwww. I always wonder what happens to the leftover bread that hasn't been consumed. Does it go back in the "hand out" basket?

 

I once saw a family sit down at a restaurant table. The baby grabbed the fork and put it in it's mouth. Family then decided it wasn't quite the right table so they moved to another one. Fork remained on the table waiting for its victim. I removed it but it made me scared of my utensils.

 

Thanks for the post but I bet what goes on in the Lido would make the dining room look like a sterile operating room. That is one reason buffets have never appealed to me. Too many hands!!! Last HAL cruise I saw a woman reach in with her hands to grab tortilla chips. Yes, the tongs were right there but I guess that didn't cross the Neanderthals brain to use them.

[themerle]

I hope HAL will take some action and have a training session on serving condiments. Hopefully no one lost their job. The server on HAL are the best!:)

[CC Help Michell]

These stories always make me shudder (as they do most people), but the rational side of my brain always chimes in.... "okay, but if you hadn't happened to SEE that happen, you'd never have known, and just gone on, which probably happens to every one of us a dozen times per day." One example I just thought about recently. I think many of us by now know to be aware of elevator buttons, stair handrails, faucet handles and door handles in public restrooms, utensils in the buffet, and so forth. But how many of us navigate those "minefields," and then sit at a table, pick up and read the menu, order from it, hand it back to the waiter.... and then go wash our hands with soap and water? You don't? Hmmm. Who knows who handled that menu before you and what bugs they may have had?

 

I think what we see, and the "ew" stories we read, are the tip of the iceberg with respect to the germs we all encounter daily. It's actually a testament to the inherent hardiness and resilience of human beings that we are still around on this planet! The truth is all you can do is your best, adjusted for your status and particular vulnerabilities (infants, seniors, folks with compromised immune systems).

 

I appreciate the OP's post, as raising a couple of other issues to be aware of, and I think they are especially pertinent on a ship in Code Red, which is SUPPOSED to be aware of these vectors for transmission and avoid them.

[Sea Island Lady]

Great observation about the menu!

 

In the Lido, I use the antibacterial wipe or sanitizing gel that is handed out. Then, I use my own wipe to rewash my hands, after I have gone through the buffet. ;) I may start doing this after I handle the menu, and the napkin, and the silverware, and the bread basket, the salt and pepper...:eek:

[George W. Bush]

If you don't live in a bubble you're going to come into contact with germs. Best just to deal with it.

[iancal]

Agreed.....we stopped eating those cookies by the ice cream booth in the Lido because we got sick and tired of seeing people reach in with their bare hands, paw the lot, and then walk away with a few. Just an invitation to trouble. And on more than one occasion, the staffers were looking right at it but did NOTHING.

[Boytjie]

Our first night, my friend had prime rib and started eating it. A while later the waiter came back and asked if any would like horseradish. My friend said yes. The waiter took the ladle and put horseradish on meat and then spread it about, touching the meat. (This is a great way for anyone who then receives horseradish thereafter to get any bug my friend had). It wasn't my food and felt awkward about jumping on the waiter.

 

Well, if you think about it, what part of the prime rib left on the plate had come in any direct contact with the eater? The knife never went in to the eater's mouth (usually!) so what's left is the fork prongs. What are the chances of the horseradish spoon actually hitting the particular spot where the fork may have gone in to the meat.

 

I agree that the sauce spoon should not have touched the meat, but the chances of it transferring germs are rather slim.

 

As for the sanitizing gels - they are not all that effective with viruses. And using gel over and over again on your hands are apparently not that good. A good hand washing with soap and water is still the best defense. As they announced on the Zuiderdam during the muster drill: wash your hands thoroughly while sining the 'Happy Birthday' song.

[Sea Island Lady]

Agreed.....we stopped eating those cookies by the ice cream booth in the Lido because we got sick and tired of seeing people reach in with their bare hands, paw the lot, and then walk away with a few. Just an invitation to trouble. And on more than one occasion, the staffers were looking right at it but did NOTHING.

Apparently, during my Celebrity cruise, the ice cream crew noticed all the cooking grabbing by hand, because they moved the tray way back where you had to ask for one. ;) I witnessed a teenager pick one kind of cookie up, and then set it back down in exchange for another. :eek:

 

PS - When you don't have immediate access to soap and water, the sanitizers are better than nothing! My hands were always fresh and clean when entering the Lido or dining room, as I washed them before heading to those places.

[deepwater]

When being seated in the dining room, I have thought about all the germs on the chair arms, especially the underneath side that we know doesn't get cleaned. One has to touch that area when adjusting the chair to the table.

[Juanita462]

I lost a month of our last cruise to a virus that half the ship came down with. After over 300 dollars in doctor's visits and meds and a close

brush with pneumonia I had one week of feeling better before arriving home.

 

Why won't people with a virus voluntarily restrict themselves to their rooms until they are over the contagious part of their illness. Is it fair

to wander all over the ship, coughing into the air or their hands and then touching everything? What about going ashore and passing the virus on to people in other countries. Every bus we were on had some pax

coughing into the air.

 

There were no bulletins warning people to be extra careful or encouraging pax to stay in their rooms if they caught the virus. One man died after developing pneumonia. I saw one man wearing a mask - he wasn't sick but was trying to avoid getting sick.

 

Some of the staff picked up the virus but kept right on working - from our room steward to the waiters in the Lido.

If they can call a code red for noro - why not for such a bad virus that swept the ship.

 

By the way - to the original poster - we were offered the same package after complaining about a serious problem on a cruise. We got the champagne but not flowers until we asked about them and in 64 days were not invited to a single VIP cocktail party.

[Picaroon]

The problem isn't just on cruiseships. Parents rarely seem willing to keep their kids home from school when they're sick with flus and colds- maybe letting them only miss one days when they're contagious for 4 or 5 days. Same thing for adults. Employers don't feel its necessary for their people to stay home for a week every time they catch a cold, and employees are afraid to (or can't afford to) call in sick when they're diseased. Why would people suddenly start acting responsibly when they get sick on vacation when they're spending thousands of dollars to be there?

 

Its sad but there you have it. I guess all we can do is bring back gloves as a fashion statement and try not to inhale around strangers :). Or relax and accept that getting sick occasionally is inevitable..

[wilhelm]

I am the original poster. I agree that we come into contact with germs every day. I don't live in a bubble, I am a farmer as well as a pharmacist. I sincerely hope that no employee gets fired, but rather encouraged in doing the right way of serving. I think that both of my original letters that included server names, table numbers etc. were thrown out. No one from management ever contacted me.

I have emailed 5 different corporate officers of HAL and I hope they address this issue in a positive manner and wish to limit our exposure to bugs. The staff certainly did a fine job of cleaning hand rails during the code red.

I have not crossed HAL off my list of possible cruises. I like the "older group" of people we traveled with, as well as choices of performers for various bars after evening meal. We had a fine time. I am sick as I write this with an upper respiratory infection, but I don't blame that on HAL. Probably caught it from the lady sitting right behind me on the train to Copper Canyon. That is not HAL's fault. I've tried to be fair in this post and not alarmist, at least that is my intent.

 

I was and am trying to do "the right thing" for you and I. If you want me to "back off and let it go" please voice your opinion. I have read everyone's post. Bill

[babygirl722]

They also reuse all the butter on the tables in the dining room for cooking! Imagine this, your kid uses a butter knife to butter his bread, licks it, dips it back in the butter dish....you get the picture! My DH and I were shocked when they told us this.

[legalslave]

MichellP, that is so funny what you mentioned about touching the menus! My husband and I went out to dinner tonight. The server laid the menus in front of us and I got 2 tissues out of my purse (one for each hand) to hold the menu. I try not to touch anything in public places if at all possible. I know we can be as careful as possible and still get a virus. I figure I will lessen the odds of getting a virus by being extra careful

 

We are flying to Denver tomorrow. I have my large container of clorox wipes in my bag. I will use them to wipe our chairs at the airport before sitting on them, will wipe our seats & armrests & tray tables & entire back of seat in front of us on the aircraft. At hotel, will wipe the key card and the door handle of our room before entering, as well as everything I see in that hotel room.

 

NOW--I do all of this but my husband touches every door handle, menu etc he sees! If I get a virus, it will be because he brought it home!

 

Diane

[CaliGirlInCharlotte]

EEEEEK! Y'all are freaking me out. :eek:

 

I never saw a fellow passenger so much as sneeze on the Oosterdam last September. I realize now I may have been on the healthiest sailing ever recorded. Oh wait, I just thought of someone who looked ill--The cruise director looked, uh, "exhausted" the morning after the 2nd formal. LOL

 

As for vacationing on a floating petri dish, I just try to do what I can to avoid germs--no eating on the floor, and such--and the rest is up to my immune system. Anyone who rides the train to work or sits in a movie theater encounters just as many germs.

 

Trust me, I am far more likely to break an ankle avoiding the handrails than I am to catch the flu touching them. :D

[Sea Island Lady]

The reality is that germs are everywhere we turn. There is really no avoiding them. Yes, we can try to help with cleaning (and I practice the same "germ cleaning" as legalslave), but there are many places that we just don't think about that carry germs. The chair arms and menu's are a perfect example. There's just so much that we could do!

 

wilhelm - I appreciate what you are saying (I personally have a problem with the potential spreading of bodily fluids through the use of the spoon :eek: ) and that you are trying to make us aware of potential dangers, however I think your constructive criticism will fall on deaf ears as far as HAL is concerned. :)

 

With your profession, I am sure that your pharmacy is full of germs from all the sick people coming and going. While those customers are waiting for their prescriptions, they are probably rummaging through the isles, looking at greeting cards, checking out the products on the shelves, even doing a little shopping. Imagine the sneezing, touching, sneezing, and spreading of germs on all that merchandise! :eek:

 

Question: Do you and your co-workers clean and sanitize all the products on your shelves, to remove and prevent the spread of germs everyday? :rolleyes: Impossible! ;)

 

BTW - Welcome to Cruise Critic! :)

[Maryandi]

Thanks Wilhelm for bringing this to our and HALs attention. I do try and be careful of both picking up and spreading around germs, viruses, what have you. I will now be more aware in eating and serving areas everywhere.

 

Another 'hot spot' for me are doctors/dentists waiting room furniture - I have seen so many grimy chair arms and stains on seats - and - those magazines ! I have brought it to the attention of the Doctors.

 

Luckily, even tho' we are surrounded by germs and other icky things, our built in resistance protects us - but when it doesn't - ugh !!

 

MaryAnn

[PennyAgain]

I've noticed this on cruises with many different companies. I've complained about it.

 

The sauce and silverware thing as well!

 

I fought the silverware thing on HAL when we used to travel with my elderly in-laws. They were so frail. The idea that they pick up and relay silverware is just awful!

 

WE had a problem in our staff lounge/kitchen at work with unsanitary practices. People just wouldn't follow the simple rules. We closed it for a week and had it completely repainted, cleaned and organized. We removed the microwave oven which had been the source of many disputes. We banned the use of personal coffee cups (that are seldom washed) and provided heavy paper coffee cups. We discarded the metal eating ware and provided plastic.

 

The result was that we had a much easier flu season last year. Coffee cups! Plastic spoons and etc.

 

Common sense folks!

[Sea Island Lady]

Thanks Wilhelm for bringing this to our and HALs attention. I do try and be careful of both picking up and spreading around germs, viruses, what have you. I will now be more aware in eating and serving areas everywhere.

 

Another 'hot spot' for me are doctors/dentists waiting room furniture - I have seen so many grimy chair arms and stains on seats - and - those magazines ! I have brought it to the attention of the Doctors.

 

Luckily, even tho' we are surrounded by germs and other icky things, our built in resistance protects us - but when it doesn't - ugh !!

 

MaryAnn

I know! The doctors waiting rooms can really look bad and I always take my own reading material. I once took my newspaper, and had a man sitting next to me, ask if he could read it. He then tried to give it back!:eek: I declined it.

 

Our local pediatrician offers a "well" waiting area and a "sick" waiting area. That's nice!