I know there was a couple of threads recently about Belize . . .

[mcfam5]

Didn't know if anyone saw this link on the Carnival board. Apparently, a woman drowned during a cave tubing excursion. I have read several caveats regarding this excursion. Just wanted to pass along the info . . .

 

http://www.7newsbelize.com/sstory.php?nid=12244

[crusinmama06]

How sad. :( That's why I always cringe when I see someone take a small child onto that excursion. The cruise lines set the limits for a reason. I don't care if some local person allows a lower limit, my kids are not going in there.

[mcfam5]

How sad. :( That's why I always cringe when I see someone take a small child onto that excursion. The cruise lines set the limits for a reason. I don't care if some local person allows a lower limit, my kids are not going in there.

 

I totally agree Michele. My heart goes out to this family. I can't imagine unexpectedly losing a love one of vacation! It happened with close friends of ours two years ago on a Disney cruise. The husband went on a scuba excursion and one of the fellow passengers had a heart attack while underwater and died. That fellow passenger had a wife and two small kids back on the ship. I just can't imagine.:(

[gkrnjlr]

I saw that! How incredibly sad!

 

I totally agree in going with the age restrictions that the cruiseline sets.

[seashell36]

I also, agree with Michelle. We won't do any of the water excursions with the kids along (or the zip line). We did several snorkel excursions on our first cruise (with out the kids). But, with the kids in tow we will stick to the beaches, zoos and land tours. From what I read about the death in Belize it happened on a Carnival excursion - not a private booked tour. All of the private booked tours had been cancelled because of the high water. Don't know why they wouldn't cancel theirs either.

[CeleBrat]

One of the things that you *hear* a lot about Belize is that the private cave tubing tours are small groups of people, whereas the ship's tours are much larger. I wonder if this accident is a direct result of having so many people on that tour and not being able to SAFELY keep and eye on everyone?

 

That being said, we all need to remember that although we are traveling on large, high-tech cruise ships, many of the places we visited don't compare and simply are not the same technology-wise, medical-wise, and business-wise to the US.

 

There is one port that I won't ever visit again because I am personally aware that (at the time), there was only (1) ambulance on the island, and it couldn't be retrieved in time to assist the fellow passenger that I was personally helping to perform CPR on.

 

The day after the snorkel/drowning accident, we stopped at belize, and DH and I were on a jungle tubing excursion. (Like cave tubing, but no cave). Anyhow, it was FREAKING ME OUT that we were in the middle of the jungle, in the middle of nowhere. I kept thinking, "What would we do if we needed help--or an ambulance...?" Although it was a nicely-run, and safe excursion, had someone in our group had a heart attack, it would have been a very bad outcome because of where we were.

 

The passenger that drowned, was not doing something extremely active or crazy, like tubing. Rather, she was snorkeling, and inhaled the water through the snorkel tube. INSANE! And I'm sure, if you think about it, we've ALL inhaled water through the snorkel at some point. Remember how disorienting it is because you can't breathe but it takes you a minute to figure out what happened? In her case, she didn't recover from that....

 

So please, everyone be careful, even if you are "just" on the beach.

 

Thanks!--CeleBrat

[mcfam5]

One of the things that you *hear* a lot about Belize is that the private cave tubing tours are small groups of people, whereas the ship's tours are much larger. I wonder if this accident is a direct result of having so many people on that tour and not being able to SAFELY keep and eye on everyone?

 

That being said, we all need to remember that although we are traveling on large, high-tech cruise ships, many of the places we visited don't compare and simply are not the same technology-wise, medical-wise, and business-wise to the US.

 

There is one port that I won't ever visit again because I am personally aware that (at the time), there was only (1) ambulance on the island, and it couldn't be retrieved in time to assist the fellow passenger that I was personally helping to perform CPR on.

 

The day after the snorkel/drowning accident, we stopped at belize, and DH and I were on a jungle tubing excursion. (Like cave tubing, but no cave). Anyhow, it was FREAKING ME OUT that we were in the middle of the jungle, in the middle of nowhere. I kept thinking, "What would we do if we needed help--or an ambulance...?" Although it was a nicely-run, and safe excursion, had someone in our group had a heart attack, it would have been a very bad outcome because of where we were.

 

The passenger that drowned, was not doing something extremely active or crazy, like tubing. Rather, she was snorkeling, and inhaled the water through the snorkel tube. INSANE! And I'm sure, if you think about it, we've ALL inhaled water through the snorkel at some point. Remember how disorienting it is because you can't breathe but it takes you a minute to figure out what happened? In her case, she didn't recover from that....

 

So please, everyone be careful, even if you are "just" on the beach.

 

Thanks!--CeleBrat

 

I remember reading a post of yours once regarding that accident you were a witness to. What island was that again????

[crusinmama06]

All of the private booked tours had been cancelled because of the high water. Don't know why they wouldn't cancel theirs either.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ;)

 

And yes I knew it was a cruise sponsored tour. But you see many people around here ask how they can get around the age limits on everything from cave tubing to horse back riding. :(

[Sky616]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ;)

 

And yes I knew it was a cruise sponsored tour. But you see many people around here ask how they can get around the age limits on everything from cave tubing to horse back riding. :(

What's the matter with taking a child on a horseback riding trip or a cave tubing trip? We did both of these on our last cruise on privately owned tours with my 6 yr old son. Thank goodness I found these on CC or we wouldn't have enjoyed these tours. It is sad and unfortunate about the lady that died cave tubing. My condolences to her family and friends. But it was an accident. Accidents happen all the time everywhere in the world. What does children cave tubing or horseback riding have anything to do with this lady dying?

[crusinmama06]

What's the matter with taking a child on a horseback riding trip or a cave tubing trip? We did both of these on our last cruise on privately owned tours with my 6 yr old son. Thank goodness I found these on CC or we wouldn't have enjoyed these tours. It is sad and unfortunate about the lady that died cave tubing. My condolences to her family and friends. But it was an accident. Accidents happen all the time everywhere in the world. What does children cave tubing or horseback riding have anything to do with this lady dying?

 

 

Once again, I will repeat what I said. The cruise lines set the minimum age limits for a REASON. It's just not to "be mean". Believe me, if they thought they could make money off of it, they would. ;)

 

The local vendors would have very little liability if god forbid something DID happen to a child. So local vendors have no reason to set an age limit.

 

The cruise lines would have far more to lose. So they determine how safe each excursion is and how age appropriate it is.

 

When I was trying to take my kids swimming with the stingrays....I didn't try to get around the cruise age limits. I asked for a cruise sponsored tour that was suitable for my 4 year old. And I found one at Blackbeards.

 

When I was looking for a dolphin swim that accepted 2 year olds, I found one through the cruiseline at Freeport.

 

Certain excursions are just more age appropriate then others. I am glad that your family had a great time and had no problems with the excursions. But when you are in another country, one that doesn't have the same child safety laws that we in the US (or even Canada) do then it is best to err on the side of caution when deciding what to do with children.

 

Just because someone allows it doesn't make it safe. So I will stand by my warning. Feel free to do what you want with your kids. ;)

[seashell36]

Michelle, I agree with you wholeheartedly! A lot of people do try to get around the age limit (or height limit/weight limit or whatever the operator is trying to impose). We see this a lot at the amusement parks that we take the kids to.

Some parent's are thinking more of what they want to do - not what their children should be allowed to do. There are certain excursions that I would like to go on (that cruise lines would allow my children to do). But, I know that they are not things that my youngest children would be comfortable with. One that come's to mind is the Sting Ray City. We didn't do this when we were in Grand Cayman on our first cruise. I would like to do that next month. But, I know the 5 and 6 year olds (who can both swim very well) would not be comfortable with the rays. Maybe next time! So, we are going to do the turtle farm, and to make my oldest DD (almost 12) happy we are going to Hell. She wants to send her teachers a postcard from there!:eek: :rolleyes:

[Drew B]

I consider the age restrictions somewhat arbitrary. They certainly don't take into account the individual traits of the children involved. Let's say the minimum age is 8. Wouldn't a big, strong, brave, mature 7-year-old be more likely to enjoy it than a small, underdeveloped, timid 8-year-old? I think parents should get a clear idea of what is involved by talking to the proprietors as well as to others (preferably parents) who have done the excursion. Armed with the right information and trusting their own instincts, the parents can make the right decision FOR THEIR CHILD.

 

BTW, I'm more concerned with age MAXIMUMS than with age minimums. I've seen far more seniors on excursions who are too old or infirm to handle it than I've seen kids too young...

[redsoxgrlt]

Drew B, I see your point, but I don't agree.. They set age restrictions for a reason, and they should be adhered to. Sure you might know your child, but the person running the excursion might not, and should not be responsible for deciding who is or isn't mature enough or responsible enough to go on a specific excursion. There are also parents out there that would insist on putting their child on a ride or excursion, simply because their child is insisting they want to do it, even though it might not be the smart or safe thing to do. For example, I recently witnessed a mother that was insisting that her 4 year old daughter be let on a flying swing ride at an amusement park, when her daughter clearly had another foot and a couple more years of growing to do to meet the required "minimum" height. I for one realize the dangers of putting a kid this age on such a ride, where there is nothing to hold the child in but a metal bar that can be lifted up and down held on by a chain.. but apparently the mother did not, and was acting only on pleasing her daughter that was throwing a temper tantrum because she wanted to ride a ride that was clearly not safe. Thank goodness for age requirements.. Luckily the ride attendant stuck to his guns. Maybe she would have rode the ride and been fine, but maybe not. Are we willing to take that chance to find out?? I'm not worried about the seniors, they are adults and can make their own decisions. Young children rely on adults to make the responsible decisions for them.

[Drew B]

Drew B, I see your point, but I don't agree.. They set age restrictions for a reason, and they should be adhered to. Sure you might know your child, but the person running the excursion might not, and should not be responsible for deciding who is or isn't mature enough or responsible enough to go on a specific excursion

 

I'm sorry. I think I may have miscommunicated. I'm not talking about parents being able to ignore age restrictions imposed by the proprietors of an excursion. I think that parents should and must follow any restrictions in place. We were talking, instead, about how when a private excursion allows younger children than the ship's excursion. In that case, if a reputable person (company) running the excursion DOES allow kids of a given age, then I think that it's fine for the parent to use their judgement and take their kids on that excursion even though the ship's version of the excursion doesn't allow it. Others here feel that if the ship's version doesn't allow kids, then it is too risky to take your kids on the private version, even if they allow them.

[crusinmama06]

if a reputable person (company) running the excursion DOES allow kids of a given age, then I think that it's fine for the parent to use their judgement and take their kids on that excursion even though the ship's version of the excursion doesn't allow it.

 

But that's my problem with it...how do you know a "reputable" person/company verses one who just wants the money and isn't regulated. :confused:

 

But like you said, it is all up to a parent's judgement. And if a parent wants to take a 6 year old skydiving, then ultimatly that's their decision to do so.

[Drew B]

But that's my problem with it...how do you know a "reputable" person/company verses one who just wants the money and isn't regulated. :confused:

 

 

That's why we're here! We share information and experiences to help one another determine what is reputable. On the Belize board, there are several companies that get universally glowing praise from nearly everybody who uses them. That level of positivite press has remained steady for years with these companies. That tells me a great deal... In fact, considering the wildly MIXED reviews the various cruise companies get, I'd trust these independent excursion companies MORE than I'd trust the cruise line.

[crusinmama06]

That's why we're here! We share information and experiences to help one another determine what is reputable. On the Belize board, there are several companies that get universally glowing praise from nearly everybody who uses them. That level of positivite press has remained steady for years with these companies. That tells me a great deal... In fact, considering the wildly MIXED reviews the various cruise companies get, I'd trust these independent excursion companies MORE than I'd trust the cruise line.

 

Yeah yeah I know, Major Tom is all the rage on the Belize boards. ;) You happen to be a upcoming customer...yeah I read those boards too. :p

 

I have seen people here say that Major Tom has "no age requirements within reason"....what is "within reason"? Who decides what's reasonable? Can I take an infant cave tubing? Cause that is how the previous conversation turned out. Infants on cave tubing excursions. :eek:

[Drew B]

Yeah yeah I know, Major Tom is all the rage on the Belize boards. ;) You happen to be a upcoming customer...yeah I read those boards too. :p

 

:confused: I'm not trying to hide that fact...

 

Before we booked the kids on Major Tom's excursion, we spoke to him about them. We talked about special accomodations that are made for kids (kid-sized life jackets and tubes, options on how they ride - in their own tube or on a parents lap, etc.). We read testimonials from families that had used him. Based on that and based on the specific kids in question, we decided fairly confidently that everybody will be safe. Now, if we get there, hike through the jungle, see the river, and only then we don't feel comfortable, we won't put the kids in the water. Period.

 

I think that's reasonable. More reasonable, in fact, then basing the entire decision on an arbitrary number assigned by the ship's excursion...

[crusinmama06]

:confused: I'm not trying to hide that fact...

 

I think that's reasonable. More reasonable, in fact, then basing the entire decision on an arbitrary number assigned by the ship's excursion...

 

Hey it's your perogative to take very young kids on the Belize cave tour.

 

We expect a full report when you get back.

[Drew B]

You got it!

[CeleBrat]

It's not just the tour company you have to look at, it's also the country. The Belizan standard for tube-caving was 1 guide for every 8 guests, and the Carnival ship-sponsored tour did not abide by that. Apparently, the 1-to-8 standard was not being enforced. So, shame on the tour company for cheating the standards, same on Belize for not enforcing their own rules, and shame on Carnival for also not spot-checking this tour and citing them for not enforcing the standards. I know that when I book a private tour, I read their website meticulously, and look over their "safety" standards info. That way, I can choose to make my own informed decision as to whether, or not, to risk our safety. If I book a ship's tour, I EXPECT that they have my safety at heart, and have checked, and double-checked this tour company for us.

 

Interestingly, I just found this on the internet, regarding recently created NEW standards for cave tubing, as a direct result of the accident. Interestingly, helmets will soon be mandatory as well.

 

According to Director of Tourism Tracy Panton, a cave tubing accident

of this magnitude has never occurred. "Belize remains committed to being a

safe and secure destination for travelers around the world," said Panton.

"To ensure this reputation continues, the BTB will work closely with the

NICH, the Tour Operator Licensing Committee and other relevant law

enforcement agencies not only to investigate the incident, but also for the

enforcement of new and preventative policies that will be immediately

instituted."

 

To prevent future episodes of this caliber, the BTB and the NICH have

established several mandatory policies, set to be legally enforced

beginning October 15, 2008. These policies include: enhanced, mandatory

guide-to-guest ratios of eight to one for all operating cave tubing tour

companies in Belize; additional signage posted in each cave tubing

excursion site, informing participants of park rules and current water

conditions and/or warnings; meticulous scheduling of cave tubing tours

offered by tour operators; and the continuation of mandatory specialty

training for each cave tubing guide (which will include education on new

regulations).

 

In addition to the updated policies, helmets will also be required for

each cave tubing participant starting January 1, 2009. Furthermore, NICH,

who manages the Cave Branch Archeological Park, will be acquiring

additional monitoring equipment for cave tubing excursions that will

measure currents and other factors needing to be taken into consideration

for ensuring participant safety.

[katerkat]

Well, I'm a mom who took a very young child cave tubing in Belize. . . We used cave-tubing.com. I contacted them early on about bringing my not-quite-three-year-old and all the risks therein. We brought his own life jacket and he rode on my lap. Our guides had us all linked together, feet under armpits, so no one could get lost/separated in the caves. I think there were two guides and maybe eight tubes? We didn't have to do anything but float - the guides controlled the tubes, pointed things out, and made sure we moved along smoothly. One even managed to catch my son's headlamp when he dropped it.

 

On the other hand, my sister and husband did the ship excursion of zip-lining and cave-tubing, and they were left on their own in the caves. They said there were decent currents that got them stuck in corners, and they weren't counted until they came out of the cave. So by the time anyone noticed they were missing. . . (This was RCCL.)

 

On the other hand, one of our guides said he had a three-month-old on one tour. :eek: (But her ninety-something great-gramma, too.)

 

I'm not firm on following the cruise ship guidelines, obviously, but I wouldn't do something that *I* think is too risky for my son. The guidelines for that, of course, vary for each kid and each family. My son did have fun and I never once felt like he was in any danger on the excursion. (Now, ask me about the Mexican water slides we just encountered. :eek:)

[crusinmama06]

(Now, ask me about the Mexican water slides we just encountered. :eek:)

 

Oh now you HAVE to tell that story. LOL! :D

 

So I am asking about the Mexican water slides?????

[seashell36]

Yes, please tell us about the Mexican waterslide! I need some fun today.

[katerkat]

They were just, um, of a design I don't think would be legal in the US. :p The two slides they let us go down with Russ were open and slow-moving, but the enclosed slides seemed VERY enclosed and VERY fast. Some of the people doing the dolphin thing didn't believe me and tried it themselves, and they agreed. One of the others did a tube ride which she said was very bouncy and she flew off the tube before the end.

 

Then there was one that was called a "toilet bowl." Too enclosed, too fast, then when I got "flushed," I hurt my elbow. It was scraped and bruised and numb for the rest of the day. Russ and I stuck to the kids area after that one.

 

Then again, my husband loved the toilet bowl and went down it three times. :rolleyes: