AL3XCruise

31 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Yes, we are taught the vessel is the best lifeboat in many situations. However, with a shallow draft, high freeboard vessel about 1 mile off a lee-shore in 38 kts winds, I would be doing exactly the same as the Viking Sky's Master. 

I'm not experts on ships, but I assume the Master is concerned about a situation arising that would require the immediate evacuation of the ship by means that wouldn't be as safe as helicopters?  I would imagine that is a decision they would not take lightly, especially since helicopter evacuations have their own hazards.  That isn't saying such an emergency is imminent, but it means in the Master's opinion the risk his great enough to justify his current course of action.

Just now, John&LaLa said:

 

Profitable yes, but how profitable is the question.  It's all about ROI

That's basically what I said in my first paragraph, except assuming the Vision class ships are paid off and not expected to receive major refurbishments, you are looking primarily cash streams from operations more than considering an initial investment.  Once the value of that drops below what they can get for a sale, the ship is sold.

3 hours ago, HBE4 said:

 

Totally agree. Royal seems to want to expand the size of its fleet and passenger capacity while offering something for everyone.

 

As long as the smaller/older ships continue to sell, they will be around. Maybe not all but most.....purely my speculation.

Exactly.  Over time, I'm sure they become less profitable than there larger cousins due to rising maintenance costs and a reputation of "old and small" driving down prices.  Eventually the value of quick cash from a sale will exceed the future earning potential of the ship, particularly if that money can be reinvested into a more lucrative ship.  But until that math works out, the small ships keep sailing.

1 hour ago, Biker19 said:

Grandeur  consistently has some of the lowest per day rates of any non repo sailings- I have a feeling the profits from other ships are subsidizing its existence. 

I very much doubt that.  RCI would move or sell the ship long before it was operating in the red.

20 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

I doubt the ratio of waiters, housekeepers, barman is that much different on a per passenger basis. According to Cheng the lower ratio of officers to passengers is a big advantage of the mega ships

I agree.  I imagine there are some savings on small ship due to fewer amenities, but based on what I have read (and seen corroborated by folks like Cheng) it generally doesn't make up for the economies of scale enjoyed by large ships.  That said, as mentioned above, small ships are still profitable; otherwise, they would be gone!

53 minutes ago, leaveitallbehind said:

In other words they have no objective bearing or relevance whatsoever IMO.  The sampling is just to small to consider.

14 minutes ago, ldubs said:

The larger the population the smaller the sample needed.  Valid statistical conclusions can be drawn from small sample sizes.  Of course, the reviews you are referring to are not random sampling and are heavily biased as already explained in several posts. 

As Ldubs said, the sample size isn't the issue.  What matters is how that sample is generated.

Furthermore, statistical conclusions are used when the data is numeric, or can be made numeric.  If you are looking at only the X out of 5 part of a review, that has some relevance.  If you actually read through the review, your interpretation of the review is going to be far more relevant than any statistical data.

2 minutes ago, Gwendy said:

If people have a great cruise they generally don’t bother to write a review.  Bad reviews are often prompted by a perceived slight in how the reviewer felt they were treated.  

Certainly true, which skews the sample when looking at numeric data and results in a lot of negative writing!

Personally, I find some reviews very useful but ignore most of them.  The problem I see is that tons of reviews are poorly written.  Whether negative or positive, the writers do not employ sufficient details to determine if their experiences are relevant to me.  "The ship is dirty" can mean lots of different things.  If there is mold on food, that's a major issue to me.  If there is a little rust on the balcony, I can live with that.  Some people will write "they ship is lacking activities".  If that means there is no live music, I'd be concerned.  If it means there is no ropes course and laser tag, well, I don't really care.  If they fail to explain why they are being critical their point doesn't have much value to me. 

Things like food quality and service can be very subjective, so I'm always hesitant to put too much faith in positive or negative reviews.  Some people expect Michelin star food, others seem to think everything tastes better when your at sea!

I'm also a realist who understands that variations occur, accidents happen, and consistency can be sketchy.  I have had one truly miserable cruise experience, yet I decided to give the line another try and found it far better the second time.  

In short there is no one size fits all cruise, but people frequently write reviews as if there is and fail to explain what specifically matters to them and influenced their experience.  Add in the fact angry folks review more than happy ones, and you have a lot of negative sounding but largely useless reviews!

While there will always be people that jump into a cruise without any research, I give VV credit for trying to market what will be unique.  A few minutes on their website should give people an idea of what they are about and if they will be a good fit.

When Celebrity launched the Edge, for instance, the experience their customers expected was well established.  When it got shaken up by the Edge, a lot of people reacted negatively.  Celebrity did say the Edge would be innovative, but I don't think they really articulated what would be changed or lost.  This may have been intentional; even though they were trying to appeal to a new demographic, they wanted to keep current customers booking on the Edge.   The result was a lot of seasoned Celebrity cruisers who did their research and still found the ship too different for their tastes.

VV is different.   For one, VV benefits from being an all-new brand.  They don't have previous customers who will be upset, nor any reputation other than the one they are making now.  VV also seems perfectly willing to target one demographic at the expense of others.  Celebrity seems to wallow around trying to appeal to its traditional customers, millennial, families, etc.  They try to tailor marketing to each group, and when they get on the ship they may find certain things disappointing.  VV has made it explicitly clear what experience they provide and effectively said "if this isn't for you, we respectfully suggest you go find another line."

Please note: I'm not trying to rag on Celebrity as I am a fan (I plan to sail with them again) and I understand the pressures to increase revenues, but the comments on the Edge introduction certainly show the strategy has a downside. Marketing is very complex, and customer satisfaction is not the only driver behind it.  Still, I think VV's more transparent and focused effort will alleviate some confusion seen when lines try to provide something for everyone.

19 minutes ago, cruises42 said:

Nice picture! What settings did you use? I don't know what wavelets are. I'm new to all this. I took the picture then cropped it in the camera (that's my extend of editing).

1/60th second exposure, ISO 100 full frame Canon using a 2032mm F/10 telescope.  Vignetting is a major issue with the adapter I use, but thankfully the moon is round so it isn't noticeable.  There are some techniques to deal with that, but I haven't really explored them yet.

I'm just learning about wavelets; the idea is you can break the image into multiple layers based on detail and edit them independently.  In practice, this image is sharpened at certain layers and not at others, allowing me to avoid making the noise look worse but still getting sharper craters.  

Another common technique is stacking multiple frames.  By averaging them together, it eliminates a lot of the variable distortions caused by the atmosphere.  I've been playing with that too, but it never seems quite as sharp as I want it.  Still, folks that actually know what they are doing get stunning results!

BTW, I love the duck shots, especially the one of the female about to touch down!  I need to get a nice zoom lens :).  Got a hole between 135mm and 2032mm right now.  Plus the big one has a fixed aperture and weighs close to 20 pounds, so not really great for wildlife!

On 3/18/2019 at 10:17 PM, cruises42 said:

Tonight's moon.

 

Sadly I had cloud cover, but got a really nice shot a few nights earlier.  My first time editing wavelets.

This is an interesting discussion, but I think trying to compare the food on a cruise to land based restaurants is challenging.  As mentioned by several people, taste is subjective.  However, there are other issues.

1) Consistency can be variable.  This is something I have seen on NCL, with food quality and service being dramatically different.  I've seen the most prevalent in the MDR, reading reviews it is clear nothing is immune.  To be fair this also applies to to some land based restaurants: I've eaten at outbacks that, while not an upper tier restaurant, are an affordable casual alternative to a "true" steakhouse; others are like an Applebees that serves steak.  In short, one bad experience does not necessarily mean a bad product, just bad quality control.  To be fair, a single bad meal is disappointing, but in most cases shouldn't be seen as a red flag.

2) Ship restaurants rarely match the land-based counterparts they emulate.  If you expect Moderno to be like Fogo de Chao, you'll probably be unimpressed.  If you go into Cagney's expecting Ruths Chris, it probably won't meet your expectations.  The marketing hype doesn't really match what you get on your plate.  That said, I have greatly enjoyed my meals at specialty restaurants, but I set my expectations at what I think I'm going to get, not what the marketing folks make it out to be.

3) Buffets are hard to judge.  The sheer variety of food and constant turnover make it hard to compare different experiences.  I will say that, while boorish behavior at the buffet is a major negative, I don't hold the cruise line accountable for that when reviewing food.  It does detract from the experience though.

Thus far I have been on cruises where I've been disappointed with the quality of a specific item, but I've never had a problem finding something else that I could enjoy.  I'm always skeptical of reviews that say "everything" was bad, as it suggest to me that the person either has very high expectations or a very limited pallet that they have been unable to satisfy onboard. 

As far as aesthetics, there is an elegance to two funnel designs like Disney.  

In practice, whatever takes up the least amount of deck space tends to be the best, though I am partial to the old RCI funnels with the fully elevated lounge.  

8 hours ago, Aplmac said:

If it was docked at Pier 90 in Manhattan

where one could go ashore, go to MOMA and the Met, do some NYC shopping

and come back to the ship(hotel) -on a cruise line I'm already loyal to-

yes that could work, at least the once ..maybe even twice.

I agree there are plenty of places where the opportunity to explore for multiple days would be great.  Most, however, probably have good alternatives compared to a cruise ship.  NYC is a good example of an exception: the cost of a hotel room, food, and entertainment in Manhattan would certainly be more than that of comparable cruise accommodations.  In most places, however, I'd lean towards a resort or traditional hotel if I was staying more than a few days AND the ship was not providing me with transportation to/from the location.

6 hours ago, jocap said:

Sunborn hotels are luxury yachts moored in Gibraltar and London, which don't sail. 

Cruise and Maritime has one ship which moors in London occasionally in winter, and offers dinner, entertainment, bed and breakfast, at low rates (for London), without going anywhere.

Queen Mary and QE2 are both stationary, though I think they are marketed more as "floating hotels" than "docked cruise ships".

4 hours ago, TwinsXTwo said:

In port, we usually try and do a beach/boat/snorkel day.  We loved a ray and snorkel excursion.  We enjoyed the Aquarius in St. Thomas.  Kids loved the fort in Puerto Rico.  We can't do back to back to back beach days as one of the kids is pretty fair skinned and doesn't like the beach every day.

 Thanks for any opinions.

I'm a big fan of Bermuda.  Bermuda has snorkeling, beaches, forts, caves, various boat options, and more.  One thing I love about a multi-day stay there is the ability to plan my own adventures; between the great public transit and not needing to hurry back to the ship, you have a lot more options!  Based on what you like, I think it might be a good fit.  I'd suggest checking out the Bermuda board here for more specific suggestions and making sure my supposition is correct!

I've never been to Perfect Day, so I can't comment on that.  Obviously PC and Miami have a lot going on, but if I were visiting them (and I have) I wouldn't consider an 8 hour stop on a cruise as the best option.

4 hours ago, TwinsXTwo said:

Some things we like:  My kids like water slides, ropes courses, rock walls, basketball, pools.  We really like the movies by the pool.  The kids LOVE pizza.  I like entertainment shows - from ice skating to musicals.  We like comedians and trivia and bingo!  Not a big fan of karaoke.

I can't speak on Adventure OTS either as I've never been on that class of ship.  Regarding the Escape, I'm a fan, and it has most of the on-board activities you are looking for.  You can check for details on both ships, but Escape has a massive ropes course, nice slides, and basketball.  There are multiple pools, but as is typical of a ship that size they can be quite crowded.  Comedy was excellent, normally three shows (two family friendly and an 18+) every other night, alternating with dueling pianos.  Choir of Man, now the headline show on Escape, is regarded by many as one of the best shows on any ship... short of a full up Broadway musical I tend to agree.  Lots of live music options in different lounges and bars.

One really nice feature of the Escape is the "Waterfront" on deck 8.  It is an outdoor deck that wraps most of the way around the ship with seating, bars, and a few restaurant options.  Its a nice option if you want to be outside but want something quieter than the pool deck.

However, there are always some negatives.  You mention trivia: it is held in the atrium where seating can be at a premium.  You probably need to arrive fairly early to get a good seat.  I didn't pay attention to bingo.  There is karaoke, but it is in only one of several venues that have entertainment.  The pizza is available most of the day, but not particularly good.  When I was a teenager I probably wouldn't have cared, but I notice now.  Not bad, but I'd put it on par with average frozen pizza you heat up at home.

I also found the Escape to be a very pleasant ship during the school year; it may feel a lot more crowded when schools are out and there are lots of 3rd and 4th guests in cabins.  Adventure OTS probably suffers from this as well, but I don't know how it compares.

A few pictures of the Escape that might be relevant to you; 

The Waterfront

Slides and Ropes Course

Main Pool (right around freezing weather in NYC)

Forward sundeck and Hot Tub

1 hour ago, Nyc2tropics said:

And don’t tell me that’s how all the cruise lines work cause that doesn’t mean it’s right.

OK.  That's how A LOT of industries work.  Revenue management has been a thing for many years.  You can view it as wrong, but if you choose to do business with industries that price dynamically, you either need to try and use the system to your advantage and take the risk of late bookings or accept that you were happy with price you paid, when you paid it, and move on.

If you consider it bad customer service, that's your right.  But you know that is what it's going to be going in, yet chose to do business with the company anyway.

I lover Bermuda and have been there on several cruises, likely with around 10 days in port total.  Never ran out of things to do, and enjoyed exploring on my own schedule via public transit.  When I only have a few hours in  a port, it feels much more important to carefully plan everything, choose packaged trips or excursions, etc.

That said, @LHT28 is right it depends on what you want.  I think most people will be happy in Bermuda, but for details I'd suggest posting in the Bermuda forum (link below) and letting people know what you are looking for.  They can give you details on beaches, snorkeling, caves, zoos/aquariums/museums, shopping, sightseeing, and much more.

Also, "Being on the water" can have different meanings, but there are tons of ferries and sightseeing boats in Bermuda, so you may be able to enjoy the sea air and the view that way if you choose.

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/forum/118-bermuda/

5 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

So: Embarkation and debarkation processes won't be the problem. Here in Europe those behemoths are doing multi port embarkation and debarkation. MSC and Costa are doing that all days here. Even RCI is doing it on their Oasis class European sailings by using both Barcelona and Rome as embarkation and debarkation ports. The problem will be the distance from the ports to the main sites. Apart Barcelona and Naples, all the other Oasis class ports are cargo ports far away from the main sites. Certainly those ships are wonderful for a fantastic holiday where they are the destination. I own have experienced that... But in some 10 or 15 years from now that will cease to be the case once everyone have experienced and in some cases have gone tired of that. Now it is quite of a novelty. In 15 years it might to become such another mess we have to deal with...

Good point; I'll admit that all my cruises have originated in the US and Canada, where multi-port embarkation is uncommon.  I'm sure the distance from the port to various attractions will diminish the appeal of certain ports for large ship passengers, but IF the industry is right about future demand I think there will still be plenty of room for all the 200K+ GT ships currently planned.  Some ports will likely expand to accommodate the ships, others will invest in transit of some kind, and some will simply focus on smaller ships.

Of course, as you said, if they are still ordering these ships at this rate in 15 years, the problem could become much more acute.  I agree that right now the lines market the big ships as a destination.  As they become more prevalent, its possible the amenities they provide will become standard expectations, pushing ships that size and bigger and forcing ports and cruise lines to figure out viable solutions.  Or you may be right that the novelty wears off and the market trends to more flexible smaller ships.  The next few years will be interesting!

5 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

TBHH: The Caribbean is well served with all those behemoths serving it right now. There might to be a place for more 3 or 4 for Europe plus 1 or 2 to Asia and the Middle East and the odd 1 or 2 for Australia. That makes barely 5 to 8 additional ones... And we have already some 11 on the order book to let alone those 175-200K GT we are not counting for now!..

Publicly, cruise executives seem to think growth in the Caribbean will continue.  Of course, they have motivations to promote the most optimistic picture!  If they are proved correct, it is conceivable that current ships could be replaced by giants at near a 1:1 ratio. Ships in the 100GT range may be moved elsewhere or transferred to other lines.  I've seen quotes from line management admitting some US ports have great potential, but the lines are focusing on maximum profitability routes out of Florida and don't have enough ships to expand.

I'll admit I don't know nearly as much about other markets, though.

6 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

A fully enclosed Oasis class "as it is" seems to be practically impossible due to the centre of gravity that is calculated by design to be as it is right now for its size and the needed stability with the open spaces at Central Park and the board Walk;

I'm not sure how "on the edge" Oasis is with regards to stability.  Enclosing the area in glass would have a much smaller impact on center of gravity than actually building out decks (talk about a lot of inside cabins!), which I'm sure would not be possible without major changes.  But given the size of the ship, I'm sure even a relatively lightweight enclosure would be something requiring careful evaluation.  I agree, though, that it is far more likely to see that kind of change introduced on the Icon than on Oasis 6, if at all.

6 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

Perhaps "smaller" ships structurally speaking with higher GT! Permit me moderators, but that seems also the way MSC is doing their World class...

I agree.  I also am really looking forward to the World class, as it will be our first time seeing someone other than RCI enter that territory!  

6 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

We are here because we just love to talk about our very favourite hobby that is cruising!... 🙂

 Sometimes discussions via text sound more like arguments than a friendly conversation, so just wanted to make sure my thoughts were taken in the cordial manner they are intended!  Take care!

10 hours ago, SRF said:

The rule in sailing is, do NOT ever help without getting approval.  So the person knows you are helping.

 

You ask, and if they agree, then you help.  Otherwise, stay out of the way.

I think the issue with that comparison is that there are a lot more situations on a sail boat (or operating any equipment, really) where taking action without communicating first is inherently dangerous, potentially resulting in injury and damage. 

Not judging the approach, nor saying there isn't potential for injury if someone gets startled or pushed, but its not quite the same.

1 hour ago, jagsfan said:

I can’t imagine anyone  wanting an elevator door to hit their wheelchair and bounce off it.

Reminds me of a recent cruise.  A woman with a stroller is trying to get on to a nearly packed elevator, and the passengers are quietly talking to each other about how to rearrange everyone so there is room.  The woman angrily complains that the discussion is too loud and these people are going to wake the baby.  Of course, her nasty complaint is in a much louder voice than anyone else had been speaking!  

It was either Vision OTS or Empress OTS; can't remember which one was first!  I do remember Empress, at the time, being an incredible experience that felt a step above the mainstream line, almost like Celebrity.  Small, warm, and friendly.  Still my favorite RCI ship, though I've never been on an Oasis class!

3 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

Can't help myself, but there will clearly to be such a problem: Few ports ready to receive them all!...

The infrastructure required for a port of call is much less than a departure port, and there are a lot of ships close to the Oasis class in draft and length already in service.  Most of the added size comes as beam on the giants, which can impact docking options but normally not as much as length and draft.

I'm sure there will be some piers that require lengthening or the addition of a couple dolphins to safely handle larger ships, but ports seem willing to accommodate growth.  As alluded to by another poster, it wasn't that long ago a large ship was 80,000 GT; now almost all mass market line ships are larger than that.   

I'm not disagreeing there are potential issues, but I doubt they are insurmountable for most destinations.  Of course, it is possible tender ports may not be able to support these vessels no matter what.  Or they may invest in super tenders like the Norway used to have.

Terminal facilities capable of efficiently handling arrival and departures of multiple 6000+ passenger ships will be trickier, but RCI has already shown a willingness to invest in landside facilities.

3 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

Icon class might to be an "all climates" version of the behemoth subject perhaps with northern Europe, Alaska and other less than stellar climates in mind,

I have wondered about Oasis-like design with a fully enclosed Boardwalk and Central Park intended for a cooler climate.  I do wonder if Oasis 6 or Icon may have something like that in order to be more versatile, not to mention bump up the GT number!

3 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

And the technical evolution is creating conditions for smaller, more efficient and more profitable ships. A good example of this can to be found on the LNG engines; and that is only one of them.

I'm not sure if LNG favors smaller ships.  The LNG powered AidaNova is second only to Oasis class ships in size, and the Icons will be LNG as well.  It seems the technology has become the most economical way to meet new emissions standards on large ships.  

I do agree that smaller ships may be on the horizon to target various markets and offer more varied departures and itineraries.   NCL's next generation of ship is "only" 130,000 GT, which seems to buck recent trends but is still quite large.

And @Nunagoras, I realize I quoted you a ton... I just found some of your points really interesting to think about!

Assuming you want a tour, it is hard to go wrong with Thenford.  You do get off the bus and walk around the fort, Romney Manor, and have some time at the beach, so it is not just sitting.  Still, if you are looking for an active adventure it may not be what you want.

I don't recall the name of the beach, but it was nice enough and had facilities, drinks, and chairs.  And it was neat being at a black sand beach.

A few pics from the tour:

Assuming you don't want to spring for spa passes and an aft balcony, I'd agree with spa for winter, aft balcony for summer.

The spa gets busy, but I never had trouble finding a seat.  It isn't like the pool deck!

51 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

Im not sure I would take anything said by a hotel director as gospel.  I would be more inclined to go with the number of 232,000 posted in a picture from the shipyard.

 I tend to agree, though I wouldn't be surprised if the final number hasn't been arrived at yet.  I would imagine the design continues to evolve as features are added or removed up until substantial construction begins. 

With MSC entering the 200+ GT club, they are dramatically closing the gap between the Oasis class and the "next biggest" ship.  It doesn't surprise me that RCI wants to make sure their flagship class remains well beyond the competition in terms of size and amenities.  

33 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

Seem small now but Sovereign/Majesty were Worlds first Mega Ships

First purpose built cruise ships to have that status, at least, and they seem to have marked the start of the big ship era.  The pace since Sovereign launched is crazy.  Carnival Destiny was actually the first cruise ship to supplant all the the Atlantic Liners and earn the title of the biggest passenger ship ever.

4 hours ago, shootr said:

It was a SCT - had it on a pier in the backyard with a heavy canvas cover. They have those 6.3 screw-on focal reducers that helped with the FL. 

Nice set up.  I can see why you used that more ;).  And that focal reducer is definitely on my to get list... problem is, the list is just too long!

1 hour ago, shootr said:

I had a 12" Meade when I lived in very rural area - it was fantastic for deep sky use. Traded it in for an 8" so I could more comfortably move it around. 

One of the Meade SCTs or a reflector?  The focal length on the SCT is a challenge, but it is way more portable than an 8" scope the same size!

Wish I had some dark skies more conveniently located, but the 8" is small enough to take on a trip (assuming travel by car).

2 hours ago, MikeBTN said:

There’s no such thing as “free”.

Bingo!  One way or another everything is priced in.  A "Freebie" and any associated gratuities will somehow be reflected in the base rate, service charge, etc. on any line.  Now certain people may find certain combinations of perks/fees/base rate on different lines that work best for them, but it requires some research to figure it out.  Certainly it would be nice to have more transparency so you could accurately compare prices without a spreadsheet, but I think its safe to say that isn't going to happen!

That said, NCL certainly has shown themselves to be very good at this type of marketing.  After all, there is a giant asterisk at the heart of the Escape!

So after taking photos of the Blood Moon I got interested in doing a little astrophotography.  This was the first time the weather has cooperated so I decided to try a few shots of the Orion Nebula.

Any good results are primarily due to the quality of my equipment since I know very little, and in the interest of getting done quickly in below freezing temps I applied even less...  From Polar Alignment to Processing this could be better, but its a fun start!

Single 20 second exposure at ISO800, 2032mm f/10 Telescope.  30 seconds would have been better, but my mount wasn't well enough aligned.  Even this was pushing it.  In the future I'll try stacking multiple exposures.

11 hours ago, evandbob said:

So I haven't sailed Oceania or Crystal or other fru fru lines, but just the main mass lines:  Carnival, NCL, Disney, Princess, Celebrity and RCCL.  I've observed pax on every one of my 50+ cruises use empty and used water bottles and cups at buffet dispensers.

 

But it's a pretty broad brush you're using to say all these pax were all "raised by wolves. not very clean or polite".  Some perhaps, but certainly not all.

I agree.  I find the broad generalizations very frustrating as well.  The fact is, people choose a cruise line based on many factors, including budget, on-board atmosphere, activities and shows, itinerary, loyalty programs, and more.  I know plenty of people who could easily afford (and have been on) top tier lines that frequent RCI, X, and other mainstream or "premium" mainstream lines.

It also assumes that because that and expensive, sophisticated line won't have people sneezing without using tissues and always washing their hand.  In my experience that's difficult to substantiate.  Even in those groups, you get the good and the bad.

The point is, there isn't a simple solution that both 1) provides the experience someone is looking for and 2) prevents you from experiencing certain behavior from other passengers.  I'm not sure what the motivations are for people who suggest this, but there posts often seem more pretentious than helpful.