Waquoit

8 hours ago, smplybcause said:

A credit card dispute gives you no more leverage than you did before. Amex is the sole arbitrator of this and if they find in NCLs favor it will be charged back on your account without needing your permission. 

I'm not sure you understand the concept of leverage. In this case, whoever is holding the $4,300 I paid for my cancelled cruise has the leverage. On Monday that was NCL. Currently, the $4,300 in question is in electronic transit (for lack of a better term) from AMEX to my checking account. By Monday or Tuesday that money will literally my money again. 

Sure, if NCL wins the dispute (they won't, they did not provide the service I paid for),  AMEX can put the charge back on my account without needing my permission. So what?  It'll just be numbers on a computer screen that will go away before the due date in June. But they can't take any money from me without my permission. And that's all that matters here. Because I have the leverage.

3 hours ago, julig22 said:

Now it is up to NCL to dispute, accept, or deny the chargebacks.  So far, nobody (including Waquoit) has posted that they actually had their dispute resolved in their favor.  They have received letters that say their case is either denied or is currently under review.

For the umpteenth time, so what if my case is still under review? I have my money. I have all the leverage now, not NCL. NCL can go ahead cry to Amex and Amex could conceivably and rebill me if they want. But I'm not giving the money back. I told my girlfriend about my adventures here on cruise critic battling all the lies and misinformation. She said it sounded to her like the folks I'm arguing with work for NCL.

41 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

As long as you realize that the the by filling out the form and clicking "submit", you are agreeing to the terms of the refund. And by licking "submit" on the dispute button, you are committing fraud because you are telling Chase that the merchant (NCL) did not deliver on the agreement you made with them. 

Repeating something ad infinitum doesn't make it any less false.  Here is the only "term" on the form:  By submitting this form, I confirm that I am authorized to cancel the above reservation on behalf of all persons on the subject reservation, and I understand that the refund will be returned to the original form of payment.

I agree to that. Now pay me.

On 4/14/2020 at 9:14 AM, julig22 said:

4. Chargebacks usually require that you have worked with the merchant.  Since your request is outside of the refund policies, it would be doubtful that NCL would approve the chargeback, which is also preemptive at this point.

All AMEX required from me for my chargeback was the date the cruise was cancelled. My account was credited 2 days later. The accompanying email said:

"It's important to know that we may accept the response from Usd Reservation at a later date and review the information they provide. In these situations, we may rebill your account." ...If you don't hear from us by 06/24/2020, then you may consider this matter closed.

Now I'm 99% sure that's not going to happen. Some folks like julig here insist this message means I'm going to be on the hook until June 24th. Nonsense. For the sake of argument, let's play this out. The message says they will "rebill" my account, not "debit" my account. That means they aren't just going to take the money back without my authorization. In my case, that can't happen because my money won't be still in the account by that time.

So let's say NCL somehow wins their challenge and AMEX rebills me in a couple of weeks (which would be lightspeed for NCL). The due date for that bill in my CC cycle wouldn't be until the middle of June. I just won't pay it back. I got my money already. (For the sticklers, yes, I would make the minimum payment, I'm not risking my great credit for these guys.) Mid-June is only a couple of weeks from the 90 days. After the 90 days NCL has no leg to stand on. The "rebill" would become moot.

Just remember, cruise consultants are salespeople first and foremost.

8 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

The merchant is refunding the money. Therefore you are subject to the terms and condition of that refund. You can file a fraudulent chargeback (you accepted the refund on the terms specified by the merchant by clicking "submit" on the refund request), but you are then subject to retribution from NCL and your bank.  Full Stop. 

More disinformation. There are no "terms specified by the merchant" on the request form. Just the idea of "terms" to receive my legally mandated refund is ludicrous. If I owed you money and made it a term for refund that you had to get on the floor and beg like a dog would you do it?

All the form says is Please allow 90 days for us to process your request.  My answer to that is "No".

8 hours ago, emm126 said:

@Waquoit the reality is, Amex is going to send NCL a letter stating that you disputed the charge. They will ask is a refund due and maybe even when will it be processed. NCL will respond yes, a refund is due and Amex will probably say well we did it for you. Case closed. Also there is very little possibility that someone could double dip and get 2 refunds. Someone, either NCL or Amex would be looking for the money on the 2nd credit. 

I'm not seeing your point. Are you saying that after NCL responds to AMEX that AMEX will then tell me to wait the 90 days to get the money from NCL? If not, what?

58 minutes ago, fshagan said:

June 24 is about 70 days from Apr. 15th, so it's still a long time to be fully resolved. 

Once the money is back in my checking account, the matter is fully resolved.

33 minutes ago, mafig said:

 

Were this true, who would you more likely trust to get you your money at the end of the 90 days,

Norwegian? or

American Express?

 

Not just that, once you get the money back it's yours. They can rebill all they want, I wouldn't pay it. If NCL stiffs AMEX, that's their problem. My cruise was cancelled by the merchant. I owe nothing.

12 minutes ago, julig22 said:

It will take time.

Bottom line is nobody knows at this point.

Maybe not, but the picture getting clearer to me. I predict that my balance in full will be safely back in my checking account by the end of the month, probably by the end of next week. If it isn't, I will contribute $100 to the food bank of your choice.

2 minutes ago, julig22 said:

The prevalent poster on this thread who keeps insisting they got a refund has posted the letter on another thread - a letter that clearly states that it is a TEMPORARY credit. 

More disinformation. The letter does not use the word TEMPORARY at all. The part you are calling the claw back is more like CYA boilerplate than anything else in this context.  I'l post it again:

It's important to know that we may accept the response from Usd Reservation at a later date and review the information they provide. In these situations, we may rebill your account. If that happens, we'll be sure to let you know immediately. If you don't hear from us by 06/24/2020, then you may consider this matter closed.

They MAY accept the response from NCL but they won't because NCL doesn't have a case. That's why Amex is processing these things so quickly.

Trust me, I'll gladly eat crow if my credit disappears. And I will come back and say so. In the meantime, I'm just trying push back against all the disinformation here. Like saying a letter clearly says something when it clearly doesn't.

19 minutes ago, julig22 said:

Instead of bashing people who are actually giving factual information... And YOU DID NOT get a full refund from AMEX - I read the letter on your other post.  You got a temporary credit that will be resolved at a future date.  Sorry you don't understand that.

And I'm sorry you don't understand the difference between facts (what I posted from actual experience) and the hearsay (the report of another person's words) you posted. And LOL at the idea you have a clue of what I got! My Amex message says: " In these situations, we may rebill your account."   Rebill my account, not take back my temp credit. 

But say you are right and they do "rebill my account". What do you think they will say if I tell them to "wait 90 days, interest free"?

36 minutes ago, NittanyCruise said:

No, because AMEX expressly stated that they could claw back the money. Until OP is free and clear he doesn't have anything. 

True, I have not yet moved any money from my Amex account into my into my personal account as of yet. AMEX has a few hoops they make you jump through, they are a business, too. But please tell me with what justification will this "claw back" will ever happen? Amex knows all about NCL's existing refund policy and they charged back my $4K in two days anyway. They clearly have new standard policy established. The onus is now on NCL, what will be the basis of their protest? That they want to hold on my money even longer because they said so? If NCL's 90-day policy carried any water with AMEX, I highly doubt they would have moved on my dispute so quickly. It makes no sense for them to credit me (and thousands of others), just to turn around and "claw back " the money later when no facts will change. I bought 2 cruises, cruises cancelled, case closed. Pay me.

48 minutes ago, buckeyefrank said:

Uhm.... no.  That's business.  How else are they going to pay for the ship, payroll, port fees, food, fuel? 

Not our problem. That's what banks are for.

15 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

My experience has varied by Credit Card provider. With my VISA MBNA card (owned now by Lloyds) I was recently told I needed to write to the company and give them 14 days to pay, a kind of "letter before action", once I could document I have done this they would start the chargeback.

That's what happened in my previous dispute. That's what I was expecting. But that's not what happened. And I'm sure it wasn't because AMEX thinks I'm special. 

3 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Bottom line is considered a frivolous chargeback. A chargeback accuses the merchant (NCL) of a fraudulent charge. You are, in fact, committing fraud because NCL has, in writing at time of refund request, promised to repay you in a specified timeframe. 

 

NCL can and has blacklisted people for frivolous chargebacks. You may say "that's o.k., I never want to sail on NCL again"... but forever is a long time to be blacklisted.

 

Your bank is now taking time and expense to investigate the claim. Your bank, finding out that it is a frivolous chargeback, may consider you a risk. And may consider terminating or downgrading your account. Forever is a long time. 

 

It is NOT a free roll. The roll could come with consequences just to get your refund a few weeks earlier. 

You must work for NCL, you entire post wreaks of phony piety and the type of misinformation I am railing against. If I am committing "fraud", I have AMEX right there next to me. I told them about the 90 day plan refund plan up front. The only question they asked me is "Is this charge for a cruise that has been cancelled?" I said yes and gave them the date of the cancellation.  There is no way I was the first AMEX customer to enter a dispute concerning a cancelled cruise. No doubt AMEX has already worked out their process to handle this situation. There is nothing to investigate; cruise cancelled - done!

And this threat in this context, "Your bank is now taking time and expense to investigate the claim. Your bank, finding out that it is a frivolous chargeback, may consider you a risk. And may consider terminating or downgrading your account. Forever is a long time. "  is nothing but nonsense to scare the rubes. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

And if I make the NCL "blacklist" so be it. Just as long as they don't put me on double secret probation.

BTW,  you gave yourself away with "the roll could come with consequences just to get your refund a few weeks earlier." That's an blatant example of bad faith. Ask 100 people how many weeks in a few, most would say 2 or 3. If it was one week, they would say 1. If it was 4 weeks they'd say a month. Nobody would consider 12 weeks, "a few".

8 minutes ago, susanf31 said:

"If  you don't hear back from us by 6/24..."

6/24 is exactly 90 days from when most of us submitted the Refund Request Form back on 3/23. So it's still the same 90 day wait. 

 

But I'm not waiting for my money! 

ADD: And I was in the 2nd batch that started on 4/13! You could have been whole by the end March!

2 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

News flash. Just because something was your experience doesn't mean that it's everyone's experience. I wouldn't begin to dispute the facts of your experience. There's no reason for you to dispute the fact's of someone else's experience.

 

How could it go either way? Because you issue was resolved by the vendor. Just because you don't like the terms doesn't make the resolution invalid. Why would the credit card company do a charge back when a refund is in process?

I wasn't disputing someone's experience. I was disputing someone else's hearsay about the experience presented as fact. Big difference.

And by asking me "Why would the credit card company do a charge back when a refund is in process?", aren't you disputing the facts of my experience? (Hint:Yes) I don't know why AMEX did it, I just know they did it. I reported it here to help others who wanted to know more about their options. Isn't that why this board exists? I made a guess about the why in my OP,  if you really care that much you can call them yourself.

2 minutes ago, KSSS2013 said:

 Please report back on what happens either way so there's a firsthand account of your experience.

 

Will do. The AMEX note said "If you don't hear from us by 06/24/2020, then you may consider this matter closed." 

I will post any updates as they happen.

21 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I have also seen a posting on here from someone else (I believe it was Amex) who denied the dispute due to the fact that a refund was in process. It seems that it can go either way.

This is how bad information gets disseminated. Someone who doesn't know what they are talking about repeating bad information acquired from someone else who didn't know what they were talking about. How the heck does it "seem(s) like it could go either way"?  

Stuff like the above is why I made my OP. I am telling folks here what actually happened to me, not a 3rd-hand tale.

17 minutes ago, SeaShark said:

specifically, how many days would you accept without the need for a fraud chargeback?

Who is calling it a fraud chargeback besides you?

For this post, I label will facts and opinion accordingly:

FACTS:

On 4/14/20 I called AMEX and told them I would like to dispute a charge The entire process took less than 5 minutes. I told them that I initiated the NCL refund process and I found it to be unreasonable. Two days later I received a secure message that said:

We're writing to let you know that, as a result of our investigation, we've credited your account for $4,xxx.xx, which will appear on your next statement.

It's important to know that we may accept the response from Usd Reservation at a later date and review the information they provide. In these situations, we may rebill your account. If that happens, we'll be sure to let you know immediately. If you don't hear from us by 06/24/2020, then you may consider this matter closed.

OPINION:

Now some may be put off by that second part. I'm not. For one, I disputed a charge of just $80 a few years back (Ticketmaster billed me twice) and they did not refund my money before the investigation was complete. I forgot how long it took but it was long enough that it had slipped my mind and seeing the eventual credit was a happy surprise. Here, they refunded my in full in just two days. AMEX knows what going on here and I don't see any response from NCL that will cause me to get charged back. Are they going to say they want my money back just so they can hold on to it for another couple of months? I can't see that working.

Now why did they refund the money so fast? I'm thinking AMEX is thinking that with a fresh $4K to play with, I'll be using my AMEX card much more over the next 90 days than if NCL was still holding MY money. And they'd be right. Again, I'll be surprised if other CC companies do not have a similar policy for cancelled cruises. 

The disinformation on this board is incredible. Nevermind the lost souls that think making an electronic refund is akin to splitting the atom,  I had someone tell me directly that AMEX was going to make me wait the 90 days. Then there's that guy that keeps saying that initiating a dispute is accusing the merchant of a crime. Don't let this nonsense dissuade you.

BOTTOM LINE:

Do it! It's a free roll! If your CC company doesn't play ball, you aren't out anything. And if they do, you jump to the head of the refund queue and get YOUR money back before they go out of business.

On 4/14/2020 at 4:51 PM, julig22 said:

They have to accept your dispute and follow through.  Just repeating what was posted on another discussion.  Doesn't mean that they won't close the dispute after contacting NCL.

Just received my refund in full from Amex. You owe it to the rest of the board here to stop spreading misinformation.

Here is a tip that has yet to serve me wrong: if a Trumper posts something, NEVER believe it. I suppose eventually I might run into a blind squirrel/stopped clock scenario but I haven't yet. And especially don't believe it when they add nefarious sounding words for emphasis.

25 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

That doesn't seem like a big surprise.

To seaman, maybe.