BOOKBOOKBOOK
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Posts posted by BOOKBOOKBOOK
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1 hour ago, Tippyton said:
Watch the video. Plenty of links there. Or don't and just steer clear of me - I'm ok with that.
Yeah sure, don't address any of my points/research and simply ask me to look at your sources (which I did). 🙄
Looks like you've decided to steer clear from me, and so I will return the favor. Nice chatting.
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3 hours ago, Tippyton said:
More and more data and studies supporting what I've been saying for months. Also more and more people like me asking why my cohort needs to be vaccinated. Also more and more evidence that the natural immunity is better than a vaccine. Also more and more people asking about the lack of phased trials for previously infected people. Also more and more people asking about my cohort in general....We're at herd immunity now, not entirely from vaccines.
How do I know? I understand science and I research myself - I don't follow the advice of infographics or anybody on the internet. Time to get up to speed and stray from the teleprompter. It's nice to be vindicated from all the namecalling, SM cancellation, and hate over the last few months. The brainwashing borders on criminal.
Suggest informed or those who want to be informed watch this video.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/youve-had-covid-long-immunity-221359167.html
https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/03/19/natural-immunity-or-vaccination-better-15409
https://newspunch.com/natural-immunity-to-covid-19-may-last-a-lifetime-new-studies-show/
Just because antibodies are known to persist after previous infection, it does not mean they are as robust at inducing a comparable, robust immune response as do the vaccines. A UC Irvine study has shown that immune response from mRNA COVID-19 vaccines is more robust than natural infection.
Your sources rely heavily on opinion and not on actual studies conducted. At least two of them cite the opinions of Rand Paul, a politician and ophthalmologist, not an infection disease expert. ACHS's credibility is questionable considering its funding sources.
If you could link actual studies to support your conclusions, maybe I can get more informed.
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15 hours ago, Mariketa said:
Science is showing that vaccinated antibodies and infection based antibodies can be long lasting (decades or longer)
Do you mind sharing the science behind infection-based antibodies being long-lasting to the length of decades or more? To make a similar argument that those against the COVID vaccines tout, there are currently no longitudinal studies or data to support this claim. Also, just because antibodies are long-lasting, it does not mean they are robust in terms of immune response (see the UC Irvine study I embedded below).
6 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:The other story, the potential longevity of those with natural immunity (and antibodies from prior infection), continue to gather support of the theory that that segment of the population should be treated "equally" with those vaccinated.
I haven't done a lot of reading about those with natural immunity, but there's science out there that suggest immune response from mRNA COVID-19 vaccines is more robust than natural infection. I would love for those previously infected to be as protected as those fully vaccinated, but more scientific investigation needs to be done to evaluate the policy implications for this.
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The best case scenario for fake vaccine cardholders is that they will be able to get through the terminal and cruise with zero cases onboard. It's true that anyone can purchase and/or make what looks like a real vaccine card, and this will most likely be enough for check-in purposes.
However, should a significant number of cases manifest onboard, the fake vaccine cards will not pass the scrutiny of Royal or the feds when they decide to do a closer inspection for liability purposes. The financial and legal trouble these passengers will be in, whether they catch the virus or not, will be something to behold.
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Wow, this is pretty cringe.
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Just now, taglovestocruise said:
Fake cards are becoming a booming business. Two weeks ago.. May not be perfect but good enough to hit 95%+
A California bar owner has been arrested for allegedly selling fake COVID-19 vaccination cards in what's believed to be the first thwarted scheme of its kind.
Undercover agents with the state's Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control bought the bogus cards for $20 each during multiple visits to the Old Corner Saloon in Clements, a small town in San Joaquin County.
The agents were told to write their names and birth dates on sticky notes and watched as employees cut the cards, added phony vaccination dates and laminated them, the Associated Press reported.
"On the back where they put the two dates when you were vaccinated, they used two different color pens to make it look like it was two different times," supervising agent Luke Blehm told the AP. "So they went to some effort to make it look authentic."
Is this sarcasm? Hard to tell tone over the Internet.
In any case, fake cards are far from being a booming business when anyone with a printer can fake them cosmetically (no need to pay someone to do it).
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33 minutes ago, gadaboutgal said:
Others have asked already, but do you mind linking the source? These seem like sailings that are scheduled to happen at the beginning of July (because everything else before was cancelled) that Royal has not cancelled yet. Adventure is the odd one out on this list because they are confirmed to sail starting in June (no need to follow CDC guidelines).
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3 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:
Equinox also scheduled to resume on July 18th!
Yeah, I noticed this too, but they didn't announce a homeport for this sailing. Any guesses why?
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https://thepointsguy.com/news/cdc-clears-u-s-cruise-restart-june/
Although not specifically Royal, this lines up exactly with what Fain has recently said about how US restart will look for Celebrity and for Royal Caribbean Group in general. This is indicative of how fast the 95% vaccinated passenger route is compared to having to do test sailings. Although this topic has been talked about extensively on this forum, it will be interesting to see how Celebrity will deal with DeSantis's executive order.
This is great news for the industry! I wonder if Royal will be doing the same with select ships.
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4 minutes ago, shutterbug63 said:
Good news! I wonder how are they going to police this and make sure anyone who's not vaccinated is wearing their mask when they're supposed to be. Now I realize this is probably only going to be kids under 12 (based on their current vaccination policy) or people who have a legitimate medical reason to not be able to get the vaccine, but I wonder what their plans are as far as that.
Also, anyone got a link to the actual announcement? I find the CDC site difficult to navigate.
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html
I think policing will be a minor issue because cruise operators have tons of flexibility on ships with 95% of passengers/crew vaccinated. Hence the "For ships with at least 95% of crew and 95% of passengers fully vaccinated, the following requirements are recommendations only." clause. In other words, it won't matter who the 5% unvaccinated consist of.
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This is the way. The vaccines are our path to normal cruising!
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6 hours ago, Esmerelda said:
These vaccines won’t have clinical trials completed for 2 years. Anyone that has participated is part of the trials.
Which antivaxxer echo chamber did you pull this from? 😂
Let's discuss the point that people who have survived after catching COVID-19 are part of the clinical trials for studying the virus's long-term effects. We have discovered some already.
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2 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:
I question Richards comment, I have no recollection of them operating or announcing any “fully vaccinated” cruises.
Also, this transcript is from late April, the earnings call was nearly 4 weeks ago; the directives we are navigating now did not even exist at the time of this call.
Just because you have no recollection of them operating or announcing any fully vaccinated cruises doesn't mean that they don't exist. The Nassau and Bermuda (not cancelled at the time of the call) itineraries are fully vaccinated cruises with the exception of those under 16 needing to provide a negative test. Management has said that they have no issues complying with the 95% passenger vaccination requirement with full knowledge that kids under 16 couldn't get the vaccine yet. Now that 12+ can get the vaccine, their concerns are brought down even lower.
Royal has yet to announce fully vaccinated cruises coming out of the US like the Nassau and Bermuda itineraries, but that doesn't mean they are not pursuing both paths in parallel for a US restart given the evidence from the horse's mouth.
Curious, what directives that didn't exist four weeks ago lead you to believe that Royal will not consider 95% vaccinated ships out of the US?
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14 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:
In reality there aren’t 2 paths.
RCG has made it clear they do not have any plans that exclude children, so the “test cruises” route is the only route they can take.
Q1 2021 Earnings Call Transcript - https://seekingalpha.com/article/4422623-royal-caribbean-group-rcl-ceo-richard-fain-on-q1-2021-results-earnings-call-transcript
Michael Bayley
"On the kids, I think we obviously take a look at our kid count, kid population and what have you. We think this is the next phase. And we know that the vaccinations are now eligible for children, 16 and over. We've been told that in the coming weeks and months that that age limit will likely drop to 12, and we're encouraged by that. And then for kids 11 and under, obviously, we carry a lot of kids 11 and under. But relatively speaking, as a percentage of our total guest count, it's quite a small number. So we're not overly concerned with that. And again, as Richard pointed out, we received these modifications late last night. We really do have to sit, study and discuss with the CDC and understand all of these different nuances. But we're not discouraged by this in anyway."
Richard Fain
"And Steve, just - I think we ought to make it clear that we've been operating and have announced cruises, some of which are requiring full vaccination and some of which do not. And so, I think we consider it constructive that the CDC has looked at this with a dual pathway approach, much as we have taken."
I think I'll let company management illuminate what reality is.
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It's possible that Royal is pursuing both routes for US restart. Perhaps the test cruise timeline will be such that these cruises will be ready by August (or some month later than the cruises with 95%/98% vaccination for passengers/crew). The most recent earnings call suggested that the company would pursue both paths outlined by the CSO anyway. It's good news that the ball is starting to roll, and maybe the test cruises will be ready for paid passenger sailings in July.
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2 hours ago, Biker19 said:
And what if there aren't?
Why take the chance to find out the answer to this question? We already know variants exist, and they did not emerge from vaccinated people. Vaccinations, stopping the spread, and eventual eradication of COVID-19 is our best chance at stopping the emergence of new variants that we may have trouble dealing with in the future (more trouble than the forms we're currently dealing with). The last thing we want is for COVID-19 to become like the seasonal flu with different strains floating around.
People who are choosing not to take the vaccine and/or are on the fence about it continuously repeat that long-term effects of the vaccine are unknown. At the same time, they are not speaking about the long-term effects of COVID-19, which are indeed known. Damaged heart muscle, lung scarring, and brain damage (strokes, seizures, Guillain-Barre syndrome), to name a few.
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3 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:
You cite a cruise blog and under the "Legal Questions Remain" is this: "A cruise ship in port falls under local jurisdiction; however, whether that jurisdiction lies with the CDC or the state government remains never-ending." So the answer is it is not clear according to Cruise Hive.
I would be more interested to know what information you have with the type of employment you've held for the last 20 years in Florida if you're able or care to share.
Don't you just love it when people cite sources that don't help their point AND claim some sort of "qualification"? 😂
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10 minutes ago, James4me said:
I want to hear your source please.
The vaccination does not offer 100% guarantee protection from catching COVID-19. However, risk of hospitalization and/or severe symptoms is extremely low for fully vaccinated people catching COVID-19.
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19 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:
I believe the most recently posted vaccination protocol is for all North American sailings, not just Caribbean embarkation.
Whoops, you're right, completely forgot haha. But yeah, would love to see cruise lines adhere to the 95%/98% passenger/crew vaccination rule and bypass test sailings to get us to normal cruising again ASAP. It's looking like they will be going with that path considering how much the cruise lines are investing time and money to get crew vaccinated at US ports as we speak.
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30 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:
All true but they had to know by now that this might be an issue when they booked even if it was 2 yrs ago and it should come as no surprise or hard feelings toward those not vaccinated. I didn't book a cruise because I didn't want to invest time and money in such uncertainties. I'm vaccinated so I'm not worried about traveling. The cruise industry still has too many unknowns, obstacles and uncertainties. The vaccine is the least of the problems.
Looks like I am unable to change your mind if you think that people who booked a July 2021 cruise in July 2019 should have known COVID-19 would come knocking. 😂
There are no surprises or hard feelings toward those not vaccinated until there are. If it so happens that unvaccinated guests (either by choice, medical reasons, or too young) are the cause of an outbreak, a port being removed from an itinerary, or having indoor dining privileges removed for all guests, things will undoubtedly become an issue.
How is the vaccine the least of the cruise industry's problems when the most talked about issues are DeSantis's stance and the CDC's 95%/98% vaccination requirements for passengers/crew? Cruise lines right now as we speak are vaccinating crew at various US ports. I'm curious to hear what you think the cruise industry should be thinking about as they navigate through restarting.
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6 hours ago, Iamcruzin said:
CDC hasn't lifted the no sail order for cruises to start out of US so there is still time to cancel. If you booked with a non refundable deposit and are that concerned about sailing with the unvaccinated than taking an FCC shouldn't be a problem Bermuda and Nassau itineraries were scheduled after the vaccine was out so no excuse there. Again they had to know that not everyone would have access or would be willing to get the vaccine.
There is still time to cancel, but this is financially disadvantageous for many people who either have nonrefundable deposits or don't want to take a 100% FCC that would end up making them pay additional out-of-pocket to cover the spread of a more expensive cruise/itinerary in the future, especially if they already booked a great deal 1-2 years prior.
The Bermuda itinerary has been cancelled, and consumers were offered a full refund or 125% FCC, so no issues there. The Nassau itinerary is committing to all guests 16 and over fully vaccinated (12 and over starting Aug. 1) plus limited capacity, so risk of outbreak is super low.
People who don't have access to the vaccine or not willing to get it who are under the age of 16 won't be on the Nassau itineraries, and this is precisely why vaccinated people booked. The science suggests that vaccines are the way to go in terms of getting us back to cruising quickly, safely, and normally.
I think people who are complaining about unvaccinated people being on the ship are the people booked for US July cruises that still haven't received word about what kind of health protocols will be followed. Everyone who has booked a cruise for US July wants to minimize the chance of any mishaps pertaining to the virus, and I would very much like to see protocols similar to the ones Royal and Celebrity are already doing out of the Caribbean in June. If Royal suddenly announced that vaccines were optional for US July sailings, people would want to cancel in droves, but they would be losing out on a nonrefundable deposit or taking a suboptimal 100% FCC that isn't super flexible.
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1 hour ago, Iamcruzin said:
I don't know why so many who are concerned about the unvaccinated halting the cruise because of a break out are even booking cruises? You had to know that this would be a possibility. There was plenty of opportunity to cancel or get a refund instead of Lifting and Shifting into the unknown.
1. People who booked July 2021 US cruises a year ago didn't think that COVID-19 would still have a stranglehold on the industry. People who booked 2 years ago didn't have crystal balls to know the pandemic would even be a thing.
2. People who booked July 2021 cruises in the span of less than a year ago did so with the knowledge that vaccines were the quickest and safest path to normalized cruising (CDC CSO 95%/98% passenger/crew vaccinated). Celebrity knows this based on their health protocols in the Caribbean sailings. Royal recently sent out a marketing announcement saying that ages 12+ will need to be vaccinated starting August 1 of this year (negative COVID test for ages under 16 is no longer enough).
I agree with you that people shouldn't be concerned about the 5% of passengers who are unvaccinated if the other 95% are because the chances of a cruise-ending outbreak are incredibly low. I do understand the concern of people who have July 2021 sailings booked out of the US and don't know for sure what health protocols will be followed. There will be issues if Royal doesn't start sending announcements within the next two weeks.
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47 minutes ago, atgood said:
IMO It’s a false presumption to automatically assume that an unvaccinated person will be much more likely to contract CV-19, and therefore make a cruise unsafe and ruin a cruise for everyone else onboard.
Most of us know of CV-19 cases in families where there was a wide range of who contracted CV-19, from only one member to all members. The reason why some were able to avoid it, despite being in close contact with the infected, seems to be the great unknown.
It’s only a matter of time, if it hasn’t already happened, where someone vaccinated has a breakthrough case and someone else (unvaccinated) sharing the same common space doesn’t contract CV-19.
It's not a false presumption when the science points to the complete opposite. If enough unvaccinated passengers were to contract COVID-19 on a cruise, the cruise experience is ruined for everyone if port authorities turn ships away knowing that cases are onboard. This is not including the possibility of eating take-out food from your cabins should enough cases surface.
The Science
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html - "Preliminary data from Israel suggest that people vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine who develop COVID-19 have a four-fold lower viral load than unvaccinated people."
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104849 - Fully vaccinated nursing home residents are over four times less likely of contracting COVID-19 than unvaccinated residents.
Breakthrough cases have already happened for vaccinated people, but they are at extremely low rates with near zero rates of hospitalization. A handful of breakthrough cases does not invalidate the vaccine's effectiveness. Just because an extremely small percentage of people with six fingers exist doesn't mean we're revising hand diagrams in biology textbooks.
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4 hours ago, Capt Stuebing said:
May I ask a few questions?
... if the CDC did not require masks for cruise ships and did not require vaccinations as well, would you still feel the same? meaning is it just all about the masks or all about the vaccinations?
Also, what about port stops? Are you concerned about the possibility of bringing Covid onto the ship from non vaccinated locals?
It's all about the vaccinations. The CDC has provided a quicker path to US sailings for cruise lines with the 95%/98% vaccinated passengers/crew rule.
To bring in another perspective, if non-vaccinated locals are the cause of infection of vaccinated passengers, the likelihood of a Princess Diamond-esque outbreak is super low. The worst case scenario is that a handful of passengers will get infected, quarantined, and not die (due to vaccination protecting people from severe cases). Media backlash will be a fraction of what it was for the Princess outbreaks.
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No mask Required at CocoCay
in Royal Caribbean International
Posted
Care to elaborate what you mean by "part of the story"? What are we missing here? It's not hard to understand the scientific literature suggesting that immune response from the vaccines is more robust than antibodies gained through previous infection. Long-lasting does not imply long-robustness. Long-lasting immunity is only part of the picture if it is not as good as the immunity gained from the vaccines.
Dr. Campbell barely peels the onion because all of the studies he cites don't include comparisons to fully vaccinated people and their immune responses. If it is true that fully vaccinated people are better equipped to fight variants and the main virus itself (and there's literature for this), then it would not make sense to treat these two groups equally from a policy perspective.