BOOKBOOKBOOK

4 hours ago, Capt Stuebing said:

But non vaccinated people at port stops can infect you just as much as the non vaccinated cruisers. So what difference does it make? And in either case should it occur, the media will still make it a mass hysteria type reporting 

The cruise lines don't have control over the vaccination status of foreign port residents. If infection does occur as a result of the port's inhabitants, the cruise lines can at least say to the media that they did their best by requiring passengers be vaccinated before boarding in the first place.

Non-vaccinated people at port stops can't infect you just as much as non-vaccinated cruisers because the majority of interactions with port residents are outdoors, and non-vaccinated cruisers share the same public spaces with vaccinated passengers for extended periods of time (days). This is an apples to oranges comparison.

4 hours ago, Capt Stuebing said:

The whole CDC orders are just plain confusing. We were told to wear masks to protect others. Now we’re told vaccinated people don’t have to wear masks. So does this mean the non vaccinated folks don’t need to be protected any longer? Confusing. 
 

Then we were also told airlines were safe to fly months ago because they had a special air flow & filtration system but now when masks can be removed, airline travel still require masks. Confusing to say the least. 
 

At this point I don’t believe anything that is stated or required by the CDC is actually following any form of science. 
 

We just all want to cruise safely and wish that someone would clearly offer a logical, reasonable, response to the industry so this can occur 

Those who are not vaccinated (either by choice or because it's medically unsafe for them to do so) are being protected by those who are. The scientific method is being conducted by the day via numerous studies, and the latest science demonstrates that vaccinated people without a mask are just as good, if not better, at protecting unvaccinated folk than unvaccinated folk with a mask.

I fault the CDC heavily for being very opaque throughout the pandemic, especially with regards to cruise guidance, but to conclude that they are suggesting "non vaccinated folks don't need to be protected any longer" is a stretch.

As outlined by the CDC and pushed by big cruise lines (beating the CDC to the punch), vaccines are our ticket to cruising safely and normally. Norwegian challenged the CDC's strict CSO by committing to 100% vaccination and writing a letter to them about it. Celebrity just announced that vaccinated passengers will no longer need to mask up anywhere (as long as social distancing is possible).

I'm optimistic that we will receive updated, reasonable health protocols for the cruise industry, and this will happen sooner rather than later based on recent trends.

29 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

Well, any cheering for Round 2 will be a disappointment for some because in the .04% chance I am one of those people I will be asymptomatic or have a very mild case by most accounts.  As an aside, calling side effects for 6 months from an illness as being lucky and wishing for a second round is poorly reflective of ones character.  But thanks for asking!  😁

Getting side effects for 6 months after an illness is "luckier" than death from that illness.

When did he ever "wish" for you to get a second round of COVID? Speaking of putting words in people's mouths...

6 hours ago, BecciBoo said:

I am reporting this comment which is totally out of line.  He has as much right to post his comments as you do no matter where he is getting his information or whether it is scientifically viable.  It is perfectly allowable for him to disagree with your agenda on any forum.

 

Those  who criticize just because someone disagrees with them is getting old.  I have my opinion, you have yours, there is no higher authority, especially with this pandemic who is the judge of anything.  You may advocate anything you want, but leave others to accept it or not without scathing remarks.  That is only fair.  And just because I point that out doesn't make me a "miserable human being"...as someone said.  You could be kind.... 

 

We've had our share of Covid in my family, and we've all been vaccinated as well, but he should be let alone to post whatever he pleases.  There are other points of view, doesn't make them wrong.

While I agree with you that I may have been out of line with that jab, I disagree with the premise that someone who isn't willing to discuss and consider other people's viewpoint (or spreads misinformation) has just as much of right as anyone to post on a discussion-based forum.

I have no problem with him discussing his views which I disagree with (I've said this multiple times in past posts), but what I do have a problem with is him making blanket statements like "there's zero medical or scientific reason for people already infected with COVID-19 to get the vaccine." Statements like these made with zero evidence have zero place here unless they were made as an honest mistake. I feel like I don't belong on a forum if I'm unironically (and without satire) misrepresenting facts about the vaccines (e.g, they give you superpowers, they give you free 5G, etc.). Vaccines aside, if I was spreading lies about any particular cruise line (e.g., the Allure got amplified, trust me guys, I saw it happen with my own eyes), I also feel that content doesn't belong here.

From a free speech standpoint, I agree that he has the right to say whatever he wants, even misinformation, but this is a discussion-based forum where it would be out of line for him to say "I'm not going to engage with your sources/reasoning, I'm just going to continue spreading my non-facts." I feel from an etiquette standpoint, a line has to be drawn, and this individual has crossed this line multiple times.

That's terrible that someone called you a "miserable human being" for simply stating your opinion. That's out of line. I would expect someone to call me out if I did something similar to another poster.

1 hour ago, kidless said:

I’ve noticed that companies are not requiring proof of vaccinations for employees to go maskless. Even DOJ and other government agencies that have lifted mask requirements for vaccinated employees are purely on honor systems. Same for many businesses they are not asking employees or customers to show proof. I’m thinking perhaps the fancy lawyers on certain news outlets that spout off that requiring proof of vaccine is perfectly legal and does not violate HIPAA are wrong.  So we may not see proof of vaccine requirements for cruising. #JMHO 

Interesting stuff, do you mind citing/linking where you're getting this information from? Would be interesting to see which agencies/businesses are taking the honor system route. The only private business I know of requiring proof of vaccination is Krispy Kreme for the free donut (yum!).

I agree that we may not see proof of vaccine requirements for cruising, but not for the reasons you're thinking of. If cruise lines want to start cruising again out of the US in July, they need to follow the 95%/98% passenger/crew vaccination requirements per the CDC's CSO. This will only reliably happen if cruise lines require some sort of proof. Additionally, if cruise lines want to minimize media backlash for having a handful of cases on board, vaccine proof will need to be implemented. Eventually, cruise lines will no longer require proof of vaccine once they complete test sailings, but that process will take longer than the 95%/98% vaccination route.

4 hours ago, Tippyton said:

Stop with the namecalling!  I have had covid and I'm not getting vaccinated as there is no medical or scientific reason to.  Period.  And the vaccines were never tested on a recovered cohort.  So stop!  You do you.

Actually, the vaccines were tested on a recovered cohort, and the study's findings suggest that those already recovered from COVID-19 are in the same boat as uninfected people who got only the first dose of Pfizer/Moderna. In other words, people who have had COVID are in worse shape than uninfected, fully vaccinated people. Period.

After looking at your post history, I've decided that I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are clearly spreading misinformation intentionally, and that's just weird.

Next time, just say that you are choosing not to get the vaccine because you feel recovering naturally from the virus is fine for you personally and leave it at that. Spreading misinformation to explain your opinion helps no one.

2 hours ago, Tippyton said:

Actually, no.  Zero clinical trials done and zero medical reason to get vaccinated.  Cheezy government infograms don't count as a medical reason.  And its 12 months minimum, not 3.  Likely years.  

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2021.660019/full

 

https://www.isglobal.org/documents/10179/7860911/Report+Immunity+to+SARS+CoV2.pdf/7ad40dca-c2ad-4aae-afe9-257afc93e8b2

 

Although neutralizing antibodies can wane over time, long-lasting B and T memory cells can persist in recovered individuals. The natural immunological memory captures the diverse repertoire of SARS-CoV-2 epitopes after natural infection whereas, currently approved vaccines are based on a single epitope, spike protein.

 

 

I read both of your sources and neither suggests nor concludes that post-recovery antibodies are therapeutic for "12 months minimum" that you're claiming. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misread/misinterpreted your sources. No matter the case, your vaccine "recommendations" for naturally infected persons lose so much credibility.

9 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

41 minutes ago, koolZip said:

This is why we can't have nice things...oh please just stop. If you don’t have nice things in life that’s on you.... no one else. Step up to the plate of self responsibility 

*whoosh*

1 hour ago, not-enough-cruising said:

With whom do you suggest they cruise lines confirm this information? 
What health authority will share this information with a private third party?
 

Good questions. What I'm about to say is all speculation. We will never know for sure how cruise lines will verify vaccination cards, but I can imagine some scenarios in which a cruise line can reliably procure information from health authorities/manufacturers/providers:

Reputation

Governmental Forces

The CDC, federal government, and other legal authorities have a vested interest in making sure their government documents are not being used illegitimately. I have already linked an article where the feds are already cracking down on people buying, manufacturing, or using fake vaccination cards. What would trigger their cooperation is an outbreak on a "fully vaccinated" cruise ship sailing or even a handful of cases that don't constitute a technical outbreak. If it's an outbreak, the feds and the CDC will come knocking to see if everyone was truly vaccinated. At that point, what happens next is out of the cruise lines' hands. If it was a handful of cases that ended up causing some financial damages for the cruise line (e.g., vaccinated passengers using this an an opportunity to complain and get a refund/FCC, Caribbean ports turning away cruise ships, etc.), the cruise line will want to find someone to blame, and the primary culprits are the handful "vaccinated" passengers that got infected. The cruise line will then pursue legal action and get the feds involved to check vaccination cards.

Manufacturers/Providers

Out of convenience and/or self-interest, entities like Pfizer and CVS might willingly work with the cruise lines to make sure passengers aren't faking lot numbers or dose providers on their cards. The last thing these Fortune 500 companies want is to send the message that the data they are putting on legitimate vaccination cards can easily be forged. They also certainly don't want to be associated with dishonest anti-vaxxers that are using their products/namesake to potentially cause biological harm on a cruise ship vacation. I'm not a legal expert, but if the feds came knocking or if the cruise line pursued legal action/tipped the "vaccinated" infected passengers to the feds, these entities might be forced to provide this data anyway in the form of a subpoena.

Triggers

Just to reiterate, whether it's a handful of cases or a technical outbreak, there are paths in which the fakers can and will get found out. The best case scenario for the fakers is that no cases appear onboard; otherwise, the ball gets rolling to get them found out. The cruise line does not necessarily need to verify a single vaccination card if a cruise goes smoothly, but if they do, it will only be the cards of the infected that will be put under a microscope.

8 minutes ago, atgood said:

So if a cruise line does the test cruise(s) successfully, it doesn’t have to stick to the 98/95 vaccine requirement for the restricted cruises that follow (from the US) is how I interpret it.  I’m not trying to do a creative interpreting, but that’s what I’m reading. 

I agree with your interpretation, and I think the CDC purposefully did this to persuade the cruise lines to incorporate vaccines in their first US sailings. 

I would argue that the majority of cruisers want cruising to happen sooner than later, especially paid passenger July sailings. If this is to happen, the path provided by test cruises is simply too long and challenging. The bureaucratic hoops the cruise lines will have to jump through on top of implementing strict protocols on these sailings that are meant to be close to perfect by the CDC's standards will take a considerable amount of time. To think that the first paid passenger sailings coming from the cruise lines will be vaccine-optional is unreasonable.

Based on Royal's Q1 '21 earnings call, it seems like Fain is contemplating pursuing both paths. The vaccinated path will likely yield US sailings in July, while the other path will yield US sailings at a later date that is not July. So, those who choose to be unvaccinated will eventually have the opportunity to cruise. They just won't be joining us in July.

11 minutes ago, atgood said:

It appears the 98% crew / 95% passenger vaccination requirement has been removed.  I can’t find it now in the updated guidance. 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/ti-simulated-voyages-cso.html#simulated-voyage-option

On 5/12/2021 at 9:25 AM, ericfromri said:

KEY FACTS

Norwegian raised just over $2.2 billion in a mix of stock and debt, which it says will give the company enough cash to outlast coronavirus and endure “well over 12 months of voyage suspensions in a potential downside scenario.”

The series of capital markets transactions, led by Goldman Sachs, include a $400 million public offering of common stock, a $750 million offering of exchangeable senior notes, a $675 million offering of senior secured notes and a $400 million investment from global consumer-focused private equity firm L Catterton.

Norwegian now has $3.5 billion in liquidity and will be “well-positioned to weather covid-19 impacts,” according to its press release.

The announcement comes a day after Norwegian Cruise Line warned of a potential bankruptcy, saying that there’s “substantial doubt” about its ability to keep operating amid coronavirus.

Norwegian’s stock price, trading near $60 at the end of 2019, has plunged 81% so far in 2020, and is now trading at around $11 per share. 

The stock plunged over 20% on Tuesday following the initial warning of possible bankruptcy, and is down 0.8% on Wednesday despite the positive funding news.

r/wallstreetbets called, and they want their juicy, well-researched DD back.

Joking aside, NCLH TO THE MOON!!! 🚀🌕

6 minutes ago, Mariketa said:

I don't think that the cruise lines will require it if they don't have to. They need to fill the ships, so they really don't want to make it more difficult. I do expect stringent hygiene on board and changes to stuff, distance, buffet, etc. 

At this point, it's simply a risk-benefit analysis that the cruise line would be conducting on their end. On one hand, they will forecast demand based on whether or not they require vaccines or not. They will also then conduct a risk analysis of an outbreak happening onboard with/without the vaccine. If the benefit of filling ships in July outweighs the potential backlash and consequent reduction in demand and cruise line perception as a result of a potential outbreak on a ship filled with unvaccinated passengers, then I'm inclined to agree with you that cruise lines won't require vaccines if they don't have to.

My opinion is that cruise lines will require vaccines in some capacity because the risk of losing out on so much future demand as a result of negative press from an outbreak on an unvaccinated ship will do irreparable harm to the company's operations. If an outbreak did happen on a vaccinated ship (which the science suggests that the probability is infinitesimally low), the cruise lines could at least publicly say that they followed the best health protocols out of peer cruise lines or the hospitality/travel industry as a whole.

As of right now, the CDC has provided two paths to resuming paid passenger cruising in the U.S., and the path that's shorter and less bumpy is the one where cruise lines follow 95% passengers and 98% crew vaccinated. July is a really important time of year for cruise lines revenue-wise, and if they can fill ships ASAP with paying, vaccinated passengers, they will hop on that opportunity any day of the week.

5 minutes ago, shutterbug63 said:

It's going to be interesting to see how they verify whether or not someone is truly fully vaccinated.  The CDC cards we have are honestly kind of flimsy and don't look like they'd be hard to duplicate. 

I definitely share your concern that it will be important for cruise lines to find a way to determine whether or not someone is truly vaccinated.

It is easy to duplicate/fake the vaccine cards on their surface, but faking a manufacturer, lot number, vaccine provider, and date of dose(s) will be very difficult. While it may be easy for a passenger to slip through the cruise terminal showing a fake card, once the cruise line does further inspection on the back end during and/or after the cruise, they can verify the hard-to-fake entries on the card.

If a passenger is found to have shown a fake card, the cruise line can then impose hefty penalties, including but not limited to pursuing legal action (perhaps getting the feds involved) and lifetime bans. Should an outbreak occur and the cruise line incurs financial damages, they could even make the fake cardholder partially liable via a passenger agreement that they sign before boarding.

With all this in mind, I highly doubt that anyone would try to fake their way through in the first place. The risk is just too high.

"Norwegian's not one of the big ones" so they're out of the picture 😂

My money would be on the Royal/Celebrity fleet because even though Carnival would have better fighters based on their stereotypical behavior/demographic, I would choose pure numbers every day. Carnival can't match the amount of combined passengers and crew that Royal/Celebrity would have.

Nice try, House Burglars of America! 😂

6 hours ago, RockHoundTX said:

When people talk about mask-wearing in Asia, it is usually evident that they have never lived there. I lived in Taiwan for several years and routinely traveled to Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, and Thailand. While cloth masks are an every-day item sold at the local 7-Eleven for about the equivalent of US$1, they are for smog, not viruses. Everyone has 3 or 4 of them stuck in the seat of their scooter. Prior to Covid, if you saw someone wearing a medical mask it meant they were sick or thought they may be sick (since many will still go to work when sick). Of course there was some government mandated mask wearing when Covid appeared, but generally speaking wearing a mask inside is considered impolite (kind of like wearing shoes in the house). Talking to my in-laws in Taipei, things are pretty much back to normal (and few indoor masks in one of the largest and most crowded cities in the world).    

Interesting perspective, I'm glad you brought this up. Usually when I think about mask-wearing in Asia, I think about Japan. There's not much of a smog problem there, and mask-wearing culture has persisted since the Spanish Flu.

https://www.dw.com/en/how-japans-mask-culture-may-have-saved-lives-during-coronavirus/a-55321518

On 5/10/2021 at 8:15 AM, DCGuy64 said:

No offense, but being greedy isn't nice. I was at a hotel with my wife and went up to get some bacon. A guy in front of me took 16 pieces (I kid you not) and left me with none. To add insult to injury, he left half of them on his plate uneaten and so they went into the garbage can. If no more self serve buffet means people can't hog the food, FINE BY ME. 2-3 pieces per person is fine. If you eat that, come back for more once OTHERS have gotten some.

Agreed. If cafeteria-style buffets means less food waste, I'm on board! It would be interesting to see how the removal of self-serve buffets will impact food waste industry-wide.

1 minute ago, Stallion said:

Don't get too worked. Its Schtick and and he is trolling

Ah, good to know! I'm pretty new to the forum, and I was beginning to suspect that this individual was just messing around with me. Looking forward to close to "normal" July sailings out of the US!

Just now, easy1234 said:

Ahhh, so the CDC cant keep their own guidelines updates. Good to know. I mean, NCL Sail Safe guidelines along with CDC guidelines along with RCCL existing controls are usually sufficient to prove a point. I guess all I can say at this point is follow science!

Nowhere did I say that the CDC can't keep their own guidelines updated. Of course they can update them, why do you think restrictions were lessened for vaccinated people a week ago? Please don't spread that misinformation.

NCL Sail Safe, CDC guidelines, and Royal's existing controls have not proved your point. All you've done is spread misinformation, dodged my points/questions, and preached "follow science" when you yourself have not done so. I'm starting to think you're a troll account based on your post history on this thread.

3 minutes ago, easy1234 said:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/beaches-pools.html

 

Wear a mask

 

Wear a mask when you are not in the water

• Wear masks when you are not in the water.
  • Do not place a mask on children younger than 2 years of age or on anyone who has trouble breathing or is unconscious, incapacitated, or otherwise unable to remove the mask without help.
• Masks are especially important when physical distancing is hard.

 

 

Maybe CDC guidelines will be different for ship pools than regular pools?

These guidelines were written before the most recent guidance for fully vaccinated people. I don't know why you continue referencing outdated, non-applicable information. We have yet to see current guidelines from either the CDC or Royal for how the pool deck will look for US July sailings in an environment of vaccinated people.

You've dodged my question again. How exactly are you concluding that large pool decks on limited-capacity Oasis-class ships are places where social distancing is not possible? If your answer involves linking outdated, unreliable sources or spreading misinformation, then let's just agree to disagree. 

2 minutes ago, easy1234 said:

Well, NCLs sail safe protocols and RCCLs current protocols all say masks outdoors. But if you want to ignore current as well as sail safe protocols you are welcome to.

NCL's Sail Safe protocols says to mask up "outdoors when physical distancing is not possible". RCCL's "current protocols" were written during a time when vaccines did not exist. Additionally, RCCL's protocols were written before the CDC's new guidance for vaccinated people that was released a week ago. In no way does that October 2020 blog article provide any firm grounding for how July US sailings will look like.

If you want to continue dodging my original question and spread misinformation through questionable reasoning and sources, you are welcome to.

3 minutes ago, easy1234 said:

Who is the CCD? Do they follow science like the CDC?

No need to throw a jab like that. Also, still wondering how you're concluding that large pool decks on Oasis-class ships on limited-capacity sailings are outdoor venues where social distancing is not possible. You linked NCL's Sail Safe protocols, but it's not clear how you're drawing your conclusions from that source alone.

2 minutes ago, easy1234 said:

You seem to misunderstand. The CDC guidelines for vaccinated people arent to mask around crowds when social distancing is not possible, but to mask around crowds.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

• You can gather indoors with fully vaccinated people without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart.
• You can gather indoors with unvaccinated people of any age from one other household (for example, visiting with relatives who all live together) without masks or staying 6 feet apart, unless any of those people or anyone they live with has an increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19.
• You can gather or conduct activities outdoors without wearing a mask except in certain crowded settings and venues.

I went ahead and read the guidelines more closely. It's entirely possible that we won't even have to mask up inside the ship if we're able to get to 100% vaccination (unlikely haha).

The language for masking up outdoors indicates that certain crowded settings and venues warrant masking up. If large pool decks on limited capacity sailings are defined as "not crowded", then masking up is not required. Even if they are determined to be crowded, they might not fall under the certain category. I'm guessing that certain implies crowded settings and venues where social distancing is not possible, but that's just a guess. In other words, I still think masking up on the pool deck is not probable enough for people to complain about not having a "normal" cruise.

2 minutes ago, easy1234 said:

CDCs guidance for fully vaccinated people is to wear a mask around crowds, both indoors and outdoors. That includes the pool deck so dont get your hopes up on not having to wear a mask on deck when on the cruise ship

Completely understand that. There's the possibility that a combination of limited capacity sailings plus the huge pool decks on Oasis class ships will be enough to be able to effectively social distance and not have to mask up in certain outdoor areas, including the pool deck. Perhaps the crowded chairs nearest to the pool will be "mask-up" zones.