TYinPalmSprings

51 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

People have been sailing with these types of issues since cruising began. Suddenly these folks are going to be cut out of cruising permanently without a doctor's note? I highly doubt it.

So, for those who have medical conditions  that are now deemed unacceptable, or if you are 70+ and unable to get a doctor to sign the cruise lines document that  the doctors and their insurers view as a liability statement, then you just have to HOPE they change the policy of you sacrifice your money now in the cruise lines pockets?  A worthless FCC you cannot use expires and they keep the money. They push it down the road til whoosh your money disappears. Then their marketing guys go to work with disaster control.

15 minutes ago, Blizzard54 said:

I realize they all have done it differently. NCL also requires a letter and the Princess FCC expires a year later.

I do not know it this is new but I notice this near the bottom of the page on Royal's site

All guests who are denied boarding due to these restrictions will receive compensation.

 

Could this mean that if you contact them ahead of time and them that you will be denied boarding because you can not get a letter you can cancel and get a refund?  

Nope. you get an FCC with an expiration. Some of the words they are using are vague to sound open ended,  until you pursue it further. 

13 minutes ago, Blizzard54 said:

I realize they all have done it differently. NCL also requires a letter and the Princess FCC expires a year later.

I do not know it this is new but I notice this near the bottom of the page on Royal's site

All guests who are denied boarding due to these restrictions will receive compensation.

 

Could this mean that if you contact them ahead of time and them that you will be denied boarding because you can not get a letter you can cancel and get a refund?  

No. Compensation, when detailed, is an FCC with a 2021 expiration.

7 minutes ago, Blizzard54 said:

I agree with you analysis.  I am not trying to get political here but I recall at a press conference about either the Diamond or Grand Princess, the president made a comment about requiring the cruise lines to make provisions and bear the cost of dealing with illnesses and quarantines in the future.  Most of us know that not everything he says actually gets implemented but I am pretty sure is was discussed in the meeting the administration had with the cruise lines.  If that is the case, The lines may be limiting their exposure for now with the long term plan to ease the restriction when there is a change in administration, be it 1 or 5 years from now  

No, each cruise line came out doing it different. Some canceled for 2 months ( like Princess) and agreed to return money,  some like Viking just refunded,, some extended a choice of refunds or FCCs, then there were those like RCCL and Celebrity who just said they would DENY BOARDING for ongoing cruises and would only offer an FCC if you could not get the doctor's pass if you are over 70, if you had certain medical histories, or if you did not pass their curbside review before getting on the ship. They put an EXPIRATION on the FCCS, leaving it all up to the hopes of those impacted that they would later change their new policy. NEVER did they offer to return money to those their new policy refuses or make a statement saying they would refund your money if they did not lift their new policy in the future.  Ultimately, the credits will expire, and they will be out nothing in your case as they get to keep your money.  

5 minutes ago, jotjot said:

I guest filling out the medical forms they give you at the pier, has not been working .

Not unless your bring your doctor with you to the pier to sign it

25 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

And for those who wonder why total health care costs go up, requiring all these doctor visits and possible lab tests just raises costs for the people involved as well as for insurance companies/Medicare, assuming expenses for a doctor permission slip are even covered by insurance.

Another thing, they are telling us in my state that we should avoid going to the doctors or medical offices in general for anything other than critical issues as the doctors have their hands full right now., and are understaffed, plus the last thing seniors need is exposure in those offices to the virus and other ailments. Some lines, like NCL want the document signed within something like 7 days before the cruise. Good luck to all trying to get an appointment and the doctors immediate approval.

On 3/14/2020 at 7:37 AM, KmomChicago said:

To answer the question in the title of the thread, yes, for many, our cruising days are over.  The current situation has heightened awareness of a slew of risks that were not apparent previously. The piecemeal reactions that have occurred over the past several days are nothing compared to what's coming. 

 

Separate from the outrage current and near future passengers are expressing, and the immediate risks of the current pandemic, public perception of the industry will likely cause a sharp decline in the industry, if not its demise.  First off, lots of people are afraid of water and would never cruise in the first place. Then you get people who try a cruise once and don't like the small staterooms, crowded conditions, add-on charges, or other aspects of the experience.  

 

Then you get people who still remember the Carnival Triumph "poop cruise" and the many nororvirus outbreaks, and long ago decided this whole enterprise was not for them. 

 

Now you have several incidents of shipwide quarantines followed by a coordinated agreement between the government and the cruise lines themselves, all very well publicized, planting the idea that cruise ships are a dangerous environment with a high risk of disease transmission. People will not forget this. Period. That's all.  We will see demand fall off, followed by the cancellation of several megaship pre-orders, decommissioning of some of the smaller and older ships (so long, Carnival Fantasy Class), and a contraction of the industry. It may recover gradually if it can rebuild a stellar safety record over the next few years, and through the next novel viral outbreak, and the one after that, and so on. 

...and how will any of us ever be able to trust them again in the future. If they can take our money, then change the policy after the fact, then refuse to return our money? ,,,and they get away with this theft? Would you bid on that horse in the next race?

1 hour ago, wdrl said:

We just received an email from our TA stating that the rule requiring a letter of fitness will continue as a preventative measure.  So far two cruises are requiring this letter, RCCL and Norwegian.  It not only applies those 70 and above but to the following persons:  

"Boarding will be denied to any person with a severe, chronic medical condition, including those specified by the CDC. Guests of all ages will be screened prior to boarding, regarding underlying health issues that may prevent them from sailing, i.e.  chronic heart, lung, liver, or kidney disease, diabetes, HIV/AIDS, or cancer."  

 

Our TA goes on to say that it is expected that other cruise lines are expected to adopt this strict medical requirement, as they will have to do it to survive. I think my cruising will soon be ending as I have had asthma for 55 years and need regular medication to control it.  We have already cancelled on cruise this year and have 3 more in 2020, four cruises in 2021, and one in 2022.  But we need to add another cruise as we had to cancel our cruise of the Celebrity Reflection this month and that cruise must be taken no later than December 31, 2021.  

 

I am just not ready to stop cruising.  I sure hope this really will not become a permanent requirement.

 

 

I'm not sure why your TA thinks they need to do this to survive, especially as all the lines are doing it a bit different. Although my background is as a business analyst and in financial risk management for a multi-national manufacturer in the tech industry,  not in travel, I am at least astute enough from all my business years to understand the impact of cutting off a huge and necessary market like they have with this. It can affect the ongoing success, no, more like existence,  of an operation. Just the bad will alone will ricochet through the senior community  and they will not only lose the senior cruiser, they will also lose those many grandparents who want to take their children and grandchildren on a cruise with them. And for  those not affected because they are young and do not have ailments, think about it for a minute. If they can take our money, then change their policies to exclude us after the fact, not give our money back, and get away with it, then who will be next group to be hit? Yours?

12 hours ago, Fat Albert said:

 I started cruisng in 1988 and the largest spend was the cruise itself and then excursions and casino.  The Champagne and caviar bars were also very popular.The new culture has changed drastically in a short time period so to speak. The last few yrs we decided to cut back to maybe one or 2 cruises a yr.  We have completed 83 cruises with Princess cruise lines. We have done the 19 day RT LA Panama Canal the past 3 yrs every April and Nov. We have decided to do this because of the 7 day cruises have attracted too many day drinkers who cruise to booze and have totally enjoyed the all inclusive beverage package. I remember when it first started it was all you can drink. Then the booze was being consumed like never before without the revenue so they realized it was being ordered and shared. Then the   package had to include all passengers in the room since the new method was one passenger would purchase for both or more. Then it became the 15 drink alcohol limit and many are getting more than 15 from others who have less than 15 in a day. I mention this because for me it changed the ambience with too many day drinkers for the Mexican Riviera and  then Hawaiian Islands thereafter. I have noticed how the morning café became more like the afternoon bar for noise . The passengers sleeping all over the public areas during the day time. The volume of MUTS so loud to drown out the people noises who are partying all you can drink. Then the food changed so fast, the passenger were happy with chips and dip and burgers and hot dogs. The cocktail lounges lost al the cherries and olives and many other garnishes. The entertainment took a huge dive to just college lever production shows and comedians who tell jokes we all read on the internet already. We still love the open waters and the international flavor of the crew workers . The last few cruises we ate in the specialty restaurants, chef table ,UBD or the IC but will no longer sit in such loud dinning areas for my meals . The alcohol might just be the key marketing for the cruise lines nowadays or it might be the demise since the ships are deteriorating  at a much faster pace. The furniture is ruined in half the time with people sleeping on them and putting their shoes on the upholstery and leathers . I could give so many examples but the day drinkers have pretty much changed my plans for cruisng and now the virus . 

 

Well said. I don't think they thought this one through at all. How are they going to fill their TAs, TPs, World Cruises, off seasons, and any cruise that lasts longer than 14 days. I have cruised since the 70s and it was people like you and I who built them up to be the size they are. Their stockholders also have enjoyed what we have done for them. I am 71, healthy, but wrestling with my doctor who fears liability to sign anything like this for ANYONE of ANY AGE, nor will his insurer support. It may mean getting a new doctor, if I can find one who is less fearful. Unless these cruise lines smarten up, and drop this nonsense, they will continue to create bad will and they will sink financially, not to mention the talk going around about a class action lawsuit being formulated at this time. I hope they see the error of their ways before it's too late, their stock falls even more, and they tank. Then everyone loses. 

On 3/19/2020 at 7:04 AM, Funky Fusion FoodsJ said:

It is not discriminatory.  There are already many instances where seniors are required medical clearance.  As an example some excursions (such as scuba diving) requires medical clearance for seniors.

Yeah, but it's done BEFORE they ask us for full payment, NOT AFTER, like in this case. Sure, boot us from the ships now, and indefinitely,  but unless they want to be considered heinous thieves preying on the seniors in this world, they need to return our money without further delay, and do not ever expect us to book another cruise with them for the rest of our years. 

2 hours ago, Biker19 said:

That might be a bit off - very unlikely to be so on shorter sailings, it certainly wasn't true on 3/1 Anthem sailing.

Spring break spans the period from late February to mid-April, so the age results may be influenced. You see more children and college kids during this period. Also, repositioning is necessary seasonally, and those cruises are over 14 days. These are primarily inhabited by the aged crowd as they are usually retired and have the time to do them  Cutting off this market will have serious impact to the cruise lines who move their ships between continents. People think it is easy to get a note from a doctor saying they will not be seriously impacted by the virus, but the doctors fear signing it due to potential liability even if you are healthy. What good is an expiring FCC if you can't use it? We also cannot forget that it is quite common for grandpa and grandma to pay to take their children and grandchildren on cruises en mass, so, if you cut off the pay source, those in lower age groups will reduce accordingly. 

Now that we are seeing that the virus in the US , France and Italy is showing  a heavy amount of severe cases to those 20-50 years if age, with many hospitalized. Some have died and that group is being warned by the CDC and medical professionals to be aware.  I would expect that the medical letter required for those over 70 will be immediately demanded by RCCL and others for future travel under their new policy.. So far crickets. This will sniff out how discriminatory this is.

1 minute ago, TwoMisfits said:

 

If you book after the date the policy is announced...no, then it would be a denied boarding (such as they do if folks lie about a baby's age).  Only if you booked prior to policy announcement would you have a shot at refunds.

1 minute ago, TwoMisfits said:

 

If you book after the date the policy is announced...no, then it would be a denied boarding (such as they do if folks lie about a baby's age).  Only if you booked prior to policy announcement would you have a shot at refunds.

You would be nuts if you were over 70 with diabetes, asthma etc, booked and paid for the cruise. Their "book with confidence"  only assures you a FCC. For those of us who are 70+ and booked and paid before this change, we are being offered worthless FCCs. Only if the cruise cancels do we have a chance to get our money back.

5 minutes ago, NJ&Ozzie said:

OK but not sure I understand how RC can only give FCC's back.   Isn't there some legality whereby a person's refund must be credited back in the same form as given, eg. back to your credit card. 

 

Has anyone checked with the US govt whether RC is really allowed to do this?

NJ 

It is in force by RCCL and in detail with required document to be signed and is on their website.  I would  think it impossible that they would enforce this drastic action without government approval....but remember...they are registered in Liberia and other places. Some US laws that may not have teeth with these international concerns even if they are allowed ot do business in this country. If they cancel a cruise, you can get a refund, as of right now, but if you want to change a cruise or cancel because you do not meet their new health requirement, all they will provide is an FCC that, according to this new policy, you will not be able to use up to their Dec 2021 expiration.

48 minutes ago, TwoMisfits said:

 

If they had just announced the age limit with no exceptions, yes a winning case would be made for age discrimination.

 

But, by having the out of a doctor's note to prove health, the PP is right - they will likely win b/c it is no longer a blanket prohibition, but one based on safety.  This is now just like pregnant women past a certain point in a pregnancy and babies of a certain age can't cruise.  While there will almost certainly be a court case to resolve the issue, if the cruise industry goes this way, they will almost certainly win.

For whatever reason the cruise line changes it policy and refuses for you to board, they should refund your money..period. otherwise it is theft. like in any other industry.  An FCC is worthless. 

18 hours ago, CruisinNole said:

According to CLIO, cruisers over the age of 70 make up 13% of total cruisers. That doesn't sound like a large portion to me. I do agree with you that the note from a doctor to cruise certainly is upsetting the over 70 cruisers. I hope it and the hoarding of TP both go away when we have control of the virus.

How many grandpas and grandmas out there are taking, and paying for,  their children, grandkids etc to join them on cruises. How many working folks under 70 have the time from their jobs to take TAs, TPs, world cruises, or cruises that extend more than a week or two.  Depending on the source of the analysis, it can say whatever satisfies a goal. And how can you trust the Cruise Line International Association under Kelly Craighead, who is responsible for cruise line actions that are resulting in them taking money from those over 70, changing their policy to exclude us after the fact,  issuing worthless credits with expiration dates, and keeping our money. Is this their good-bye?  or is it just theft?

7 hours ago, puerto penasco lady said:

My Doctor cancelled my appointment for routine blood work.  At the moment she is only treating urgent care patients.  I doubt seriously that she will take the time to sign this idiotic letter, even if her insurance would allow her to take on the  liability.  I have 12 Royal Caribbean cruises booked at the moment, plus airfare, hotels etc...I doubt very many doctors would be willing to sign it.  I have no medical issues, work out daily, and can easily keep up with people 20 years younger than me.  I think they are leaving themselves open for some age discrimination lawsuits if they don't rethink this.  Unless they require every single passenger, regardless of age, to have this letter than they are  definitely discriminating based on an arbitrary number. 

....and if you were cruising on Royal Caribbean you would need them to sign twelve  of these documents for twelve different dates. Same is true if you have them for a combo of different cruise lines as they are all a bit different. The worthless credits being offered will do us no good if they won;t let us use them. They will just keep our money. 

1 hour ago, NJ&Ozzie said:

Can someone please clarify - So right now RC is only giving FCC's?  Even if you cancel cruise 90 days out?  You don't have an option of receiving your refund as credit back to your credit card?

 

Thanks!

NJ 

Correct. As it sits right now the only time you can get a refund for 100% is  when they cancel the cruise, otherwise,  if you are travelling before July 31, you can only get a FCC. 

1 minute ago, ONECRUISER said:

35yrs on Royal, Cruise Critic Member since 1997...seen it all

I hear ya. Been with RCCL over 30 years myself. 

10 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

That's the norm. Even when 2 Royal Cruises are effected by Hurricane one may get FCC another money back. Never been consistent.Cruise 2 Cruise. Though in past FCC is typically good one yr, at least now lot longer. With situation ongoing might been part reason to extended this time by extra 9 months

Still theft

21 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

It's not just Royal, other lines doing it and pretty sure was Govt that asked for it. After this situation is gone, bet letter will only be memory also

The difference is that it is being handled differently bythem all. Some offer refunds and in all the specifics differs. It's only about the same in the same corporation (for example RCCL own Celebrity among others). The FCCS are time sensitive and right now, and indefinitely, going forward.  you cannot board any of their ships without this letter....so once you reach the end of 2021 the credit dies. People who paid in full  before they changed their policy Must bve returned their money otherwise it is nothing more than theft.

1 minute ago, 2cruisers in Georgia said:

So sad that you have to cancel your family cruise because of this ridiculous letter from the doctor.  I'm 72 and very upset about the required letter.  Now that we are at the age when we don't have to ask off at work or make sure we have a sitter or anything else but go, then now we have to see a doctor and even if whatever we have is under control, we still can't go.  My favorite thing to do is cruise and I've always liked Royal Caribbean best but now if some of the other cruise lines (as mentioned above) don't require a letter, I might have to forget the loyalty program.  I've been on 77 cruises (23 were not Royal) and every one was great so I'll have to give up my loyalty and they will be giving up someone who has introduced many many friends and family members to their cruise ships.

I am so disappointed about this as well, especially as we have an upcoming Med cruise with them in early May.  I am 71, healthy and my wife almost 70. Still working on my doctor who threw up on the letter for liability reasons for both him and because of his insurer. Not sure if our May 2 departure will even sail, it probably won't, but this letter thing going forward is dumb and unwise.  Aside from the bad will they are creating with both new and seasoned cruisers, this wrong turn will ultimately sink them financially if they don't pull themselves together and suspend it. Asking us to "hope" doesn't cut it. Many of us 70+ folks could be out several thousand dollars per person as a result of this. How do they think they will ever fill a TA or extended cruise? Summers and school breaks will not keep them afloat. They have been my favorite line for years. We have done 29 cruises, a lot of them with RCCL, which is nothing like your volume, but enough to feel we help them grow over the decades. Sure we are over 70 and the average life expectancy according to the CDC as of 2019 was 78.8 years so the numbers are a bit skewed. Lots of feedback coming back to them and for an illness that even the CDC does not know anything about (never mind our doctors). Let's assume the worse and hope for the best.

18 minutes ago, bonsai3s said:

 

Got a laugh out of that one...but took it seriously a bit later.

 

Just reminded us of the time we were in Brussels, Belgium.  We were offered free beer by the locals.  Didn't know why.  Then we discovered the world famous "Maneken Pis" statue of the little boy peeing in the fountain...was peeing beer.  It was free to all...tourists and locals.  We accepted...I had to two cups.  Fond memories.

I was there a couple years ago and chuckled at the peeing boy fountain. No beer for me but got hooked on Belgium fries with mayonnaise.

On 3/16/2020 at 10:58 AM, DaniDanielle said:

Kids have plenty of places to enjoy themselves on the  ship..  It is nice to have a place to go for some peace and quiet.  It won’t kill them to be excluded from the Solarium.  I think the parents are more the problem.  We have sailed with all of our grandchildren and observed the restrictions and lived  to tell the tale!!!!!!

I was in the Solarium when this multi-generational family entered the area. Included in their group was a small boy under 5. HE walked over to the pool, stood on the edge, pulled out his little thing and urinated in a perfectly arched stream into the pool . The family laughed. The pool was shut down for the rest of the day and the day following.

10 minutes ago, caribill said:

I was not asking for the source of the form (which I have already seen for several cruise lines.)

 

I was asking the source indicating that physicians have been unwilling to sign these forms.

They are friends who have been told by their doctors. If you want to see specific situations and detail of what they encountered when they approached their doctors, there are a number of folks on travel sites, not sure if I can mention those sites on here, but they are common ones. If you focus on RCCL you will see them. I have not seen an official statement for the AMA or insurance source that refutes the mandatory document,  just details of what people experienced with their doctors when they approached them.