Flying with lithium-ion batteries in scooter

I am now completely confused about what I can fly with. I am looking to purchase a folding powerchair or scooter, primarily for in-town use but I naturally want to take it along on our Alaska cruise next year. So it needs to be able to fly with me to Seattle. I have the FAA document covering batteries of under 100 WH and 101-160 WH, but the batteries of all the scooters I am looking at are in the 200+ WH range and saying FAA approved! They could be lying, of course, but ALL of them? And I know people here have been able to take their scooters on flights. I called Alaska Air accessibility desk and the lady I spoke with said something about "large batteries" and as long as it was in the scooter I would be fine, I just couldn't take along spares. What am I missing?

Most all airlines publish the requirements for bringing a scooter on the flight that contains a Lithium or Lithium Ion battery on it's website. So suggest you check with Alaska Airlines website as information given from a phone agent is not always reliable. It's also suggested that you print the information from the manufacturers website that states that the battery is FAA approved as well as print the page from the airline's website stating it's regulations regarding the specific battery to have on hand should you run into any issue at the airline check in.

Some airlines actually have you remove the Lithium Battery and store it in the cabin with you. While others just require that you disconnect the battery so that it can't be accidentally activated when it's placed in the cargo area of the plane.

I agree that agents aren't always reliable, which is why I started by looking on the Alaska Air and FAA websites. They link to the FAA's batteries document, which doesn't cover anything over 160 wh, and I couldn't find anything else.

Anyway, I'll keep looking. Just thought someone might have already investigated this and had some site suggestions.

I agree that agents aren't always reliable, which is why I started by looking on the Alaska Air and FAA websites. They link to the FAA's batteries document, which doesn't cover anything over 160 wh, and I couldn't find anything else.

 

Anyway, I'll keep looking. Just thought someone might have already investigated this and had some site suggestions.

Here's the link to what Alaska Airlines website states that's all you need. https://www.alaskaair.com/content/travel-info/accessible-services/specialservices-wheelchair.aspx click on "Battery Powered Mobility Aids. " Print this information as well the information from the manufacturers website.

Honestly you're overthinking this as well as perhaps not reading the correct page on the FAA website.

Here's the FAA regulation for Mobility Scooters with lithium batteries. https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/hazmat_safety/more_info/?hazmat=40 and http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=1&SID=bba5ad06518b529c94e1d67a3270196b&ty=HTML&h=L&r=SECTION&n=49y2.1.1.3.12.1.25.5

All it takes is one "sorry, you can't bring that" to ruin a wonderful vacation when you have mobility issues. So I'd rather be safe than sorry. And since I haven't purchased one yet, this is the ideal time to make sure I will be able to fly and cruise with whatever I wind up purchasing I had found that airline page (which basically said nothing useful) but I swear I searched the FAA site without finding that reg, in fact their search found nothing for mobility device or mobility scooter. So thank you for finding it. 300 wh I should be able to manage. Just have to remember to bring along duct tape and some kind of battery case.

All it takes is one "sorry, you can't bring that" to ruin a wonderful vacation when you have mobility issues. So I'd rather be safe than sorry. And since I haven't purchased one yet, this is the ideal time to make sure I will be able to fly and cruise with whatever I wind up purchasing I had found that airline page (which basically said nothing useful) but I swear I searched the FAA site without finding that reg, in fact their search found nothing for mobility device or mobility scooter. So thank you for finding it. 300 wh I should be able to manage. Just have to remember to bring along duct tape and some kind of battery case.

Not certain why you couldn't find the FAA regulation. It popped up immediately after doing a GOOGLE search using the phrase " FAA regulations for mobility scooters with Lithium Batteries."

:mad:I have had a Travelscoot for a few years and travelled extensively with various airlines with no problems up to now. Recently starting having problems with getting approval to fly back from Singapore with a change of plane in Hong Kong. Also having a hard time with Jet Airways to fly from Delhi to Dubai with the battery and scooter.

To try and avoid problems I have decided to purchase the smaller battery (160 wh) instead of the one that came with my scooter that is about 274 wh. It is going to cost me about $900 and I don't really need it except to try to avoid issues with airlines.

I think the uproar is being caused partly by the problems with the Samsung phones catching fire and the hovercraft problems and now the scooter batteries are being challenged.

Just my two cents worth and what has happening to me.

Actually, it is being driven by the fire on two Boeing 787 airliners when their own lithium ion batteries caught fire. There was also a crash of a UPS 747 caused when a large quantity of lithium ion batteries as cargo experienced a thermal runaway event and filled the plane with smoke.

Read the ICAO Regs http://www.icao.int/safety/DangerousGoods/Documents/Guidance%20Material/ICAOLithiumBatteryGuidance.pdf It covers the worlds Airlines. COPA told us we couldn't bring them but when I pointed out they were legal and it states they are legal on their site they backed off. You can carry extra batteries, in a backpack and wrapped in a plastic Ziplock bag if they are Lithium Polymer.

Read the ICAO Regs http://www.icao.int/safety/DangerousGoods/Documents/Guidance%20Material/ICAOLithiumBatteryGuidance.pdf It covers the worlds Airlines. COPA told us we couldn't bring them but when I pointed out they were legal and it states they are legal on their site they backed off. You can carry extra batteries, in a backpack and wrapped in a plastic Ziplock bag if they are Lithium Polymer.

The COPA regulations you posted the link where published on June 25, 2009. Given the current issues with Lithium Batteries spontaneously combusting on aircrafts the information specific to world airlines regulations stated in COPA link is outdated. A passenger must check with the specific air carriers as to its policy regarding lithium batteries as well its policy regarding boarding with a spare battery especially if flying on a non USA aircraft.

Does this make you happy? Published ICAO regs August 1 2016 Passenger Aircraft Ban for Lithium Ion Batteries: All shipments of lithium batteries without equipment are prohibited as cargo on passenger aircraft. As a result, all lithium ion battery shipments must display the Cargo Aircraft Only label. In other words, you may ship the battery if you have the scooter in this case. I read the regs all the time. I am a Pilot and Mech. It is still legal to ship a Lithium Ion Polymer Battery on COPA or any other Airline if it meets the Regulation Standard for LIO and is labeled legal for airlines. ICAO regs are the standard and if you meet those standards you are legal for an airline. Making them understand them is a different story. BTW/My batteries say legal for use on Aircraft. The regs state under 160MWh.

Does this make you happy? Published ICAO regs August 1 2016 Passenger Aircraft Ban for Lithium Ion Batteries: All shipments of lithium batteries without equipment are prohibited as cargo on passenger aircraft. As a result, all lithium ion battery shipments must display the Cargo Aircraft Only label. In other words, you may ship the battery if you have the scooter in this case. I read the regs all the time. I am a Pilot and Mech. It is still legal to ship a Lithium Ion Polymer Battery on COPA or any other Airline if it meets the Regulation Standard for LIO and is labeled legal for airlines. ICAO regs are the standard and if you meet those standards you are legal for an airline. Making them understand them is a different story. BTW/My batteries say legal for use on Aircraft. The regs state under 160MWh.

Thank you for the updated information. Fully understand that the ICAO as well as COPA regs allow a lithium battery under 160 mwh . However note that the OP's lithium battery is 300 mwh (post #5) and the battery that posed a complication for Mexico8 was a 274mwh issue (post #7) . Mexico8 has since purchase a second battery under 160mwh . The OP's battery is not a spare battery but should be OK based on the FAA regulations (link in post #4) particulary since she is not flying internationally.

:mad:I have had a Travelscoot for a few years and travelled extensively with various airlines with no problems up to now. Recently starting having problems with getting approval to fly back from Singapore with a change of plane in Hong Kong. Also having a hard time with Jet Airways to fly from Delhi to Dubai with the battery and scooter.

 

To try and avoid problems I have decided to purchase the smaller battery (160 wh) instead of the one that came with my scooter that is about 274 wh. It is going to cost me about $900 and I don't really need it except to try to avoid issues with airlines.

 

I think the uproar is being caused partly by the problems with the Samsung phones catching fire and the hovercraft problems and now the scooter batteries are being challenged.

 

Just my two cents worth and what has happening to me.

I have just talked with my dealer for "Travelascoot" in Victoria BC, Canada. I believe you delt with them on a scooter of mine, anyway they sent me a website on Lithium Ion batteries.

The site is "LITHIUM BATTERIES RISK MITIGATION GUIDANCE for OPERATORS"

Print this off, it has good information.

Cato:D

I have just talked with my dealer for "Travelascoot" in Victoria BC, Canada. I believe you delt with them on a scooter of mine, anyway they sent me a website on Lithium Ion batteries.

The site is "LITHIUM BATTERIES RISK MITIGATION GUIDANCE for OPERATORS"

Print this off, it has good information.

 

Cato:D

Thanks for the info Cato. The more I read, the more confused I am. I did get the 160 wh battery and that's what I will bring on the next trip with me. I hope the power is enough for my outings and that I won't have problems with the various airlines I will be using.

Wendy

Note about new 160 Wh battery. Wanted to try my new smaller battery before our big trip to India and the 21 days cruise to make sure the battery was okay. Quite disappointed. Went for less than 5 km (one hour) and was nearly out of power altogether. (Was on the red light). I am going to contact Travelscoot to find out if this is normal. Very disappointed - especially with having paid $900. The ground was quite flat - a little uphill in some places but not much incline.

Wendy

Note about new 160 Wh battery. Wanted to try my new smaller battery before our big trip to India and the 21 days cruise to make sure the battery was okay. Quite disappointed. Went for less than 5 km (one hour) and was nearly out of power altogether. (Was on the red light). I am going to contact Travelscoot to find out if this is normal. Very disappointed - especially with having paid $900. The ground was quite flat - a little uphill in some places but not much incline.

 

Wendy

AGM, SLA and Lithium Scooter batteries discharge even when not in use. It appears that you may have received a battery that's been in storage for an extended period of time. One thing I noticed is that neither the US or the Canadian websites lists an option of a 160WH battery for purchase. Did the battery come in a casing with the Travelscoot logo as shown on both websites ?

We have a Transformer which came with a 160Wh battery. Same problem. Co says they are sending us a new scooter with battery. It came with the 160 and you can order them from there. You can Google 160s also.

We have a Transformer which came with a 160Wh battery. Same problem. Co says they are sending us a new scooter with battery. It came with the 160 and you can order them from there. You can Google 160s also.

Fully aware that a 160 Wh Lithium Battery is available in the general market. My point was that Travelscoot USA as well as Travelscoot Canada websites do not shown a 160 WH battery option for purchase . So I'm guessing the distributor you purchased the scooter from is selling batteries other than the ones that were made specifically for Travelscoot which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

AGM, SLA and Lithium Scooter batteries discharge even when not in use. It appears that you may have received a battery that's been in storage for an extended period of time. One thing I noticed is that neither the US or the Canadian websites lists an option of a 160WH battery for purchase. Did the battery come in a casing with the Travelscoot logo as shown on both websites ?

The 160 Wh battery is bright yellow and has Travelscoot stickers on it (the same as the larger original battery). The date on it is W38/14 and when I asked the rep at Travelscoot if it was two years old he said "No".

They have offered to take it back and refund the money I paid because of the poor performance I experienced the other day. At this point I really don't know what to do. I wish I could just stay home but my husband really wants to take this big trip and we would lose all kinds of money if we cancelled.

I have sent an e-mail to my contact at the B & B in India where we are staying for 5 nights and asked him to call Air India there to find out if they are going to allow my battery (either one). I really want to bring the 274 Wh original battery but Air India may not allow it. We are flying with Air India from Delhi to Dubai and getting on a cruise ship for a 21 day cruise.

Last week they said I could bring the battery but yesterday they said it had to go in the checked baggage. When I asked how cold it was in the hold they could not answer me. I have read in the past that it's too cold for the battery in the luggage area so it might ruin the battery. That means for the rest of the trip I would not be able to use my scooter at all.

Coming home we have 9 hours in Hong Kong airport and they may not allow my battery on the plane. At that point it would not be so difficult if they confiscate it because I am on my way home and could purchase a new battery when I get home.

Wendy

New replacement scooter, battery and charger. SOS! We ran it up and down a 250 ft asphalt drive with gentle slope and in 30 min battery is in Yellow. This will not do if you are going to Dulles or any big airport like ATL where you have to go from gate 1 to the train to gate 21 in another area. WE are peeved. 13 hr battery if you power your cell phone maybe!

 

I have sent an e-mail to my contact at the B & B in India where we are staying for 5 nights and asked him to call Air India there to find out if they are going to allow my battery (either one). I really want to bring the 274 Wh original battery but Air India may not allow it. We are flying with Air India from Delhi to Dubai and getting on a cruise ship for a 21 day cruise.

 

.

 

Wendy

Don't understand why you wouldn't call Air India and speak to then directly rather than going through a 3rd party ? Air India's USA number is open 24 x 7. USA Toll Free 1800 223 7776 . Whether you have the B&B India call or you call directly you best get a written confirmation from Air India otherwise any information you're told now verbally may not be honored after when you go to board.

What airlines are you flying from Hong Kong ?

Don't understand why you wouldn't call Air India and speak to then directly rather than going through a 3rd party ? Air India's USA number is open 24 x 7. USA Toll Free 1800 223 7776 . Whether you have the B&B India call or you call directly you best get a written confirmation from Air India otherwise any information you're told now verbally may not be honored after when you go to board.

 

What airlines are you flying from Hong Kong ?

We have called Air India a few times and could not understand the person speaking at all. The Canadian and U.S. contacts were both very hard to understand. They had such a heavy Indian accent that neither my husband or I could understand one word. That's why I asked the B & B to call for us.

We have the rules for IATA and it indicates we can bring a battery up to 300 Kh. Because of the poor performance of the 160 Wh that I just purchased I now think I will bring the 274 Kh original battery. I will try to call Air India again and hope I get to speak to someone that I can understand. I know it is my problem and not theirs that I don't understand their accent.

Our flight home starts in Singapore with an Air Canada flight operated by United Airlines. We have a stop over in Hong Kong of 7 hours and then fly to Toronto with Air Canada.

I have had numerous discussions with Travelscoot about the trip. At the beginning I thought we would have a problem with Hong Kong (China regulations) but it seems Hong Kong might be okay. If Hong Kong would confiscate my 274 Kh battery it would not be so bad because I could buy a new one when I return to Canada and I would have had the battery for the whole trip. If Air India disallow it then I would not have it for the 2 days in Dubai and the 21 day cruise. That would be terrible.

The latest word from Air India was that I have to put the battery in my check in luggage. I am waiting to find out if it would ruin the battery in the luggage hold of the plane because it's too cold. I think if there is a worry about the battery catching on fire that it would be safer to have it in the special bag that I got with the battery, and have it stowed with the carry-on bags above my head on the plane. :confused:

Wendy

We have called Air India a few times and could not understand the person speaking at all. The Canadian and U.S. contacts were both very hard to understand. They had such a heavy Indian accent that neither my husband or I could understand one word. That's why I asked the B & B to call for us.

 

We have the rules for IATA and it indicates we can bring a battery up to 300 Kh. Because of the poor performance of the 160 Wh that I just purchased I now think I will bring the 274 Kh original battery. I will try to call Air India again and hope I get to speak to someone that I can understand. I know it is my problem and not theirs that I don't understand their accent.

 

Our flight home starts in Singapore with an Air Canada flight operated by United Airlines. We have a stop over in Hong Kong of 7 hours and then fly to Toronto with Air Canada.

 

I have had numerous discussions with Travelscoot about the trip. At the beginning I thought we would have a problem with Hong Kong (China regulations) but it seems Hong Kong might be okay. If Hong Kong would confiscate my 274 Kh battery it would not be so bad because I could buy a new one when I return to Canada and I would have had the battery for the whole trip. If Air India disallow it then I would not have it for the 2 days in Dubai and the 21 day cruise. That would be terrible.

 

The latest word from Air India was that I have to put the battery in my check in luggage. I am waiting to find out if it would ruin the battery in the luggage hold of the plane because it's too cold. I think if there is a worry about the battery catching on fire that it would be safer to have it in the special bag that I got with the battery, and have it stowed with the carry-on bags above my head on the plane. :confused:

 

Wendy

If you cannot understand their response, ask them to email the reply to you for your records. You'll then have it in writing to carry with you.

We have called Air India a few times and could not understand the person speaking at all. The Canadian and U.S. contacts were both very hard to understand. They had such a heavy Indian accent that neither my husband or I could understand one word. That's why I asked the B & B to call for us.

 

We have the rules for IATA and it indicates we can bring a battery up to 300 Kh. Because of the poor performance of the 160 Wh that I just purchased I now think I will bring the 274 Kh original battery. I will try to call Air India again and hope I get to speak to someone that I can understand. I know it is my problem and not theirs that I don't understand their accent.

 

Our flight home starts in Singapore with an Air Canada flight operated by United Airlines. We have a stop over in Hong Kong of 7 hours and then fly to Toronto with Air Canada.

 

I have had numerous discussions with Travelscoot about the trip. At the beginning I thought we would have a problem with Hong Kong (China regulations) but it seems Hong Kong might be okay. If Hong Kong would confiscate my 274 Kh battery it would not be so bad because I could buy a new one when I return to Canada and I would have had the battery for the whole trip. If Air India disallow it then I would not have it for the 2 days in Dubai and the 21 day cruise. That would be terrible.

 

The latest word from Air India was that I have to put the battery in my check in luggage. I am waiting to find out if it would ruin the battery in the luggage hold of the plane because it's too cold. I think if there is a worry about the battery catching on fire that it would be safer to have it in the special bag that I got with the battery, and have it stowed with the carry-on bags above my head on the plane. :confused:

 

Wendy

All calls whether USA, Canada or India are routed through the same Air India call center located in India.

Not understanding why you're concerned with Hong Kong since your are actually flying home on Air Canada ? Air Canada is the one that you need to have confirmation from that the Lithium Battery is OK board in Hong Kong. Though Hong Kong is technically China it's not mainland China which makes a big difference. Hong Kong operates under the "One Country Two Systems Principle meaning the regullations in Mainland China or even flying within Mainland China aren't the same as Hong Kong. The person that posted a while ago about having issues in China was flying "within China" meaning within Mainland China where only China owned Airlines are used for inter China Flights. Flights from China to Hong Kong are still considered to be an International Flight and not an inter-China flight. You are flying out of Hong Kong on Air Canada so very doubtful you'll have any issues with the lithium battery. Again you need to speak directly to Air Canada and get written confirmation from them which is what I previously recommended regarding Air India.

All calls whether USA, Canada or India are routed through the same Air India call center located in India.

 

Not understanding why you're concerned with Hong Kong since your are actually flying home on Air Canada ? Air Canada is the one that you need to have confirmation from that the Lithium Battery is OK board in Hong Kong. Though Hong Kong is technically China it's not mainland China which makes a big difference. Hong Kong operates under the "One Country Two Systems Principle meaning the regullations in Mainland China or even flying within Mainland China aren't the same as Hong Kong. The person that posted a while ago about having issues in China was flying "within China" meaning within Mainland China where only China owned Airlines are used for inter China Flights. Flights from China to Hong Kong are still considered to be an International Flight and not an inter-China flight. You are flying out of Hong Kong on Air Canada so very doubtful you'll have any issues with the lithium battery. Again you need to speak directly to Air Canada and get written confirmation from them which is what I previously recommended regarding Air India.

As I stated in my last post I am not too worried about Hong Kong.

I am concerned about Air India and not being able to understand the contact in India. I want to get written authorization but it is proving to be difficult.

Wendy